I hope the RNG from the current BG win boxes isn't a preview of whats to come at 110

[Deleted]

he doesn't need it; he deserves it. the best players should get the best rewards.

and that should not count for pve geared players in pvp enviroment should it but it will witch is bullshit.

[Kagthul]

First of all, 11% discrepancy in Legion cannot possibly be worse than 620 (freshly dinged) vs 740 (fully geared) in WoD.

This is utterly irrelevant, since for the entirety of WoD you could be in Honor gear in less than six hours of NOT EVEN PVPing. The only difference that mattered was the difference between Honor gear and Conquest gear, which was always about 10% or less.

[Mafic]

Here is an interesting twist.

In two battegrounds I was in that ended up being losses I ended up with blue boxes in both instances. And in both BG's I joined midway through, because someone else ditched in both instances.

It is possible that the reward box system rewards players for filling the gap of a BG already underway? Or was it a fluke?

Personally, they should give more incentive for players to stay in a BG than to leave in the first place if it looks like it is going to be a loss IMVHO.

- - - Updated - - -

progression is no longer tied to gear (which isnt a big upgrade anyway in Legion), which is as it should be really.

Rated PVP progression is tied to gear though. They just removed gear progression from mattering in randoms.

Most players will just go faceroll heroics instead just like happened in WotLK where the rated ladders saw a huge decline in participation.

[Caolela]

he doesn't need it; he deserves it. the best players should get the best rewards.

Which they were getting in the form of mounts, titles, and recolors, not gear power increases that give them an artificial and unneeded advantage.

Maybe you can explain why a supposedly better player (higher CR) is not acting entitled when he wants better gear than the other 90% of PvPers? Maybe you can explain why he would need it since he's already a higher skilled player?

Aren't they the ones who always scream that PvP is about "skillz", not gear, because hey...look at my high CR? Now in Legion, people will be arguing that Joe 2400+ got there because of his gear advantage, not his mad skillz.

Except some of us know that it's not his skill. A lot of it is hacks, kickbots, scripts, carries, pilots. So really the whole gear thing is moot anyway until that gets seriously dealt with.

[Gorgodeus]

Bullshit, it is just not tied to gear. You progress in Honor/Rank, you progress in Honor Talents, you progress your Artifact Weapon...

Uncoupling PVP from gear was the best decision in the history of PVP in WoW.

You will not be grinding gear for PvP while PvPing in Legion. The PvE gear you can grind outside of PvP is much higher ilvl, and you also can grind much more AP doing PvE content than PvP. The only thing PvP provide for better than PvE is Honor.

[Deleted]

You will not be grinding gear for PvP while PvPing in Legion. The PvE gear you can grind outside of PvP is much higher ilvl, and you also can grind much more AP doing PvE content than PvP. The only thing PvP provide for better than PvE is Honor.

Arguably, you won't grind gear for pvp at all. Why would you, even now the difference between entry greens and full end-of-expansion Mythic gear is 3% mainstat and about 1% in your "preferred" stats like Mastery or Haste.

[wombats23]

Which they were getting in the form of mounts, titles, and recolors, not gear power increases that give them an artificial and unneeded advantage.

it's not your job to decide what the extent of what the best players do or do not deserve. that's blizzard's decision. the way i see it, since the best raiders get titles, mounts, recolors and gear, i don't see an issue with the best PvPers getting all of that as well. with blizzard standardizing PvP gear with templates and adjusting spells separately between PvE and PvP, i figure it means blizzard is finally recognizing that PvE and PvP are two separate but equally deserving parts of WoW.

Maybe you can explain why a supposedly better player (higher CR) is not acting entitled when he wants better gear than the other 90% of PvPers?

he gets better gear to parity PvE gears' higher ilvls. if the very best PvP gear is only obtainable through PvE, then PvE would be required to PvP at the highest level, which would suck.

besides, i don't think there's anything "entitled" about the best players wanting to stand out from lesser skilled players, even if it does result in an advantage. if you put the work in, you get rewarded. if anything, lesser skilled players thinking they deserve to get the same gear as higher skilled players is being "entitled".

and for that matter, i don't really know many PvPers that even asked for such a system (did someone on AJ make a big rant?) it was really blizzard's decision to implement such a system. your beef is with the game, not the players.

(also, are mythic raiders "entitled" when they expect better gear than heroic raiders? i mean, the top guilds always end up proving that you can down end bosses even without full mythic gear and sometimes without legendaries even, why do mythic raiders get access to better gear than heroic raiders when it's not even necessary? is the satisfaction of having beat a harder version of bosses not enough?

WoW is, at the end of the day, an RPG, and player power progression is a hall mark of RPGs. the difference in legion is that blizzard has finally deemed PvP a legitimate method of progression.)

Maybe you can explain why he would need it since he's already a higher skilled player?

did i not say they he doesn't need it, but rather deserves it? although i guess if i really must answer, the whole paritying PvE ilvls is a darn good enough reason.

Aren't they the ones who always scream that PvP is about "skillz", not gear, because hey...look at my high CR? Now in Legion, people will be arguing that Joe 2400+ got there because of his gear advantage, not his mad skillz.

so there are 2 different points you're making here i think. (going from "he" to "they" makes me wonder if you left a sentence out by mistake when editing?)

first you're saying the people who get a high rating in legion only get it because of the gear difference, but according to blizzard, it's mere percentage points of difference. and considering how you'll be facing people near your rating as you climb the ladder, it's fair to assume you'll be facing people near your gear level (barring the occasional case where lady luck smiles (or frowns?) on someone.) so in other words, those players got there by facing people both near their skill level and their gear level.

second you're talking about how people are going to complain on the internet for flawed reasoning? i mean, welcome to the internet i guess?

Except some of us know that it's not his skill. A lot of it is hacks, kickbots, scripts, carries, pilots. So really the whole gear thing is moot anyway until that gets seriously dealt with.

yes, some players partake in such activities, but not all. legitimate players do exist out there. if anything, the fact that people can achieve such ratings legitimately is an even more impressive testament to their skill. do not discredit the entire system and those that take part in it fairly just because there exists some population of cheaters.

also, in case you didn't see:
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/t...8004856?page=1

As part of our ongoing commitment to maintaining the integrity of Arena and Rated Battleground ladders, we’ve been scouring the ladders regularly for players who engage in win-trading, boosting, and other such harmful activities. Historically, disqualifications have only taken place once a season has concluded, but we’ve been performing these investigations throughout Warlords Season 3.

As a result, we’ve identified a number of accounts—over 6,000 in total throughout the season—that had engaged in such behavior. These players were explicitly and purposefully disrupting the rated ladders in an attempt to gain or provide other players an unfair advantage and/or rewards that they didn’t deserve. As a result, the accounts that were identified as benefiting from these actions, as well as the accounts of the players who performed them, have been disqualified from earning rewards in Warlords Season 3.

Among the most recently affected players were some from teams that had qualified for our upcoming Road to BlizzCon 2016 regional tournaments. Following a thorough investigation of these accounts, these players are also disqualified—and as stated in the official tournament rules (NA, EU), these players are now ineligible to continue competing in this year’s Road to BlizzCon. Affected teams will be contacted by Blizzard and allowed to use their one roster swap (if available) to bring in another player so that they can continue competing. Should a team be unable to maintain a roster of at least three players, they will be disqualified and replaced with the runner-up team from the same qualifier cup.

We are committed to upholding the integrity and competitive nature of our ladders. We’re looking forward to a truly epic Road to BlizzCon, and can’t wait to see how things progress into Regionals and the Legion expansion.

so blizzard is putting work in after all.


overall i think it's great that blizzard is doing this. if you're a lesser skilled player, it gives you something to look up to. remember that childlike awe you got from inspecting people in SW, org or shattrath and wishing you had gear like that? on the other hand, if you're a higher skilled player, it gives you something to look forward to outside of just the last 2 weeks of the season where everyone is pushing at the last moment. if you're somewhere in between, well you get a little of column A and a little of column B. pretty neat.

[Gorgodeus]

Arguably, you won't grind gear for pvp at all. Why would you, even now the difference between entry greens and full end-of-expansion Mythic gear is 3% mainstat and about 1% in your "preferred" stats like Mastery or Haste.

You have no clue what you are talking about, and obviously have not played Beta to see how much your stats increase as you ilvl increases.

[jSewell]

11% difference? Was that number pulled out of thin air? The only number worth comparing is someone in 2.4k/mythic gear vs someone in unrated/dungeon/lfr gear. Which will be nowhere near 110 item levels. So keep shooting them fallacies, boys. The sky sure is falling.

If it makes you feel better, at least you can complain and blame the 2.4k player having 3% better stats as the reason you lost even though they still would have beat you if the tables were turned.

[Deleted]

You have no clue what you are talking about, and obviously have not played Beta to see how much your stats increase as you ilvl increases.

Yep, no clue at all, considering the fact that I personally checked that on my character a couple days ago ;*

[Gorgodeus]

Yep, no clue at all, considering the fact that I personally checked that on my character a couple days ago ;*

You are so wrong, it is laughable. A fresh 110 will be below 800 ilvl. End game Mythics drop 880+. Now go on Beta, zone into a BG and remove enough gear to drop your ilvl by 80 points. Then come back here and try to tell me the difference is only 1% and 3%. lmao

[wombats23]

welp, might as well do some math cause why not. tl;dr at bottom

here's a screen shot of my feral druid's stats in a skirmish at 802 ilvl and 840 ilvl (i was too lazy to ss an 800 ilvl gear set but the math shouldn't change anyway).


i color coded the stats because i was dumb and placed them on different places on each side.

since crit, versatility and mastery all have the same numbers, i'll only do be doing calculations for crit, haste and agility.

blizzard says that 10 ilvls is worth a 1% increase in overall power, so 1 ilvl is a .1% increase over the base template of 800 ilvl.

so 802 is 1.002% of 800 and 840 is 1.04% of 800. meaning between the two, there should be a (1.04-1.002)/1.002 = ~3.79% difference in relative stats.

"math"
crit: (4160-4009)/4009 = ~3.77%
haste: (6240-6014)/6014 = ~3.76%
agility: (11917-11503)/11503 = ~3.6%

so given differences in rounding, it works out for crit and haste. agility is close, but perhaps there's some issue there.


and for fun, you could divide the 802 stats by 1.002 and the 840 stats by 1.04, and they should end up with the same numbers barring some rounding issues

so..

crit
802 ilvl : 4009/1.002 = ~4000.998
840 ilvl: 4160/1.04 = 4000

haste
802: 6014/1.002 = ~6001.996
840: 6240/1.04 = 6000

agility
802: 11503/1.002 = ~11,480
840: 11,917/1.04 = ~11,458.65

again, the secondaries seem to be working properly, agility is slightly off. (not that this would have resulted in different results, just another way of looking at things)

i'm guessing i didn't properly account for base or racial agility? maybe someone with better knowledge on the subject can provide input. in any case, i'll submit in an game ticket just in case it's an actual bug and since that's what beta's there for



also...

Arguably, you won't grind gear for pvp at all. Why would you, even now the difference between entry greens and full end-of-expansion Mythic gear is 3% mainstat and about 1% in your "preferred" stats like Mastery or Haste.

so rurts is first talking about stats on live. (unless he's implying he's from the future and knows what the end of expansion gear in legion looks like)

You have no clue what you are talking about, and obviously have not played Beta to see how much your stats increase as you ilvl increases.

Yep, no clue at all, considering the fact that I personally checked that on my character a couple days ago ;*

and then he's talking about beta stats.

so in other words it's probably safe not to believe what rurts says. at least with regards to beta, since i just did some math to prove otherwise.

not trying to purposely flame rurts, but false or made up information always ends up being used as "evidence" over and over again, which ends up causing people to believe it's true. and that's just silly.



tl;dr: secondaries seem to properly be growing at a rate of .1% per 1 ilvl increase over 800 ilvl give or take some rounding by blizzard. primary stats seem to not be following that metric as closely, but i might have done some math wrong and in any case, it's close enough that i wouldn't make a huge deal about it. don't believe everything you read if proof isn't provided.

[jSewell]

Again, comparing fresh level 110 greens to mythic gear does nothing for this argument. A fresh leveled 100 in greens will get destroyed by pvp/hfc lfr gear. The disparity that matters is the 0 rating pop reward gear and the 2.4k/mythic reward gear. Which will be ~30 item levels, so ~3% stat difference.

[Gorgodeus]

Again, comparing fresh level 110 greens to mythic gear does nothing for this argument. A fresh leveled 100 in greens will get destroyed by pvp/hfc lfr gear. The disparity that matters is the 0 rating pop reward gear and the 2.4k/mythic reward gear. Which will be ~30 item levels, so ~3% stat difference.

The PvP gear from non rateds is only ilvl 805. Mythics are 880.

[Caolela]

it's not your job to decide what the extent of what the best players do or do not deserve. that's blizzard's decision. the way i see it, since the best raiders get titles, mounts, recolors and gear, i don't see an issue with the best PvPers getting all of that as well. with blizzard standardizing PvP gear with templates and adjusting spells separately between PvE and PvP, i figure it means blizzard is finally recognizing that PvE and PvP are two separate but equally deserving parts of WoW.

That's right, my (and many other's) beef is with Blizzard. AFAIK most players never asked for this. But it is our decision to accept or reject what they're doing to the game, and vote with our feet. Many have rejected it and that's why subs have tanked.

Higher-powered raid gear is needed to face the next higher tier of bosses; PvP is not about gear advantage but about a player's skill with his toon and knowledge of strats, comps, classes, and maps. PvP is about fighting the next higher CR/MMR players and groups, not the next higher level armor/DPS/HPS from gear.

I don't know any competitive sport worth its salt that gives the top gear/equipment or a +X% arbitrary advantage to the current champions, while challengers are given inferior gear and are expected to overcome not only the lesser gear or arbitrary %, but also the champ's experience and ability. If anything it would be the opposite, like a golf handicap on higher average players to level the field for challengers.

You don't race the 100m dash wearing worn out $30. Chuck Taylors and starting 2m or 5m or 9m behind the pack. Derp.

first you're saying the people who get a high rating in legion only get it because of the gear difference, but according to blizzard, it's mere percentage points of difference. and considering how you'll be facing people near your rating as you climb the ladder, it's fair to assume you'll be facing people near your gear level (barring the occasional case where lady luck smiles (or frowns?) on someone.) so in other words, those players got there by facing people both near their skill level and their gear level.

People que dodge all the time; also because of the low participation in Rated PvP and the MMR system, you often run into much higher MMR groups than your MMR. If those higher MMR's have an unfair gear advantage over lower MMRs it'll create even greater imbalance.

yes, some players partake in such activities, but not all. legitimate players do exist out there. if anything, the fact that people can achieve such ratings legitimately is an even more impressive testament to their skill. do not discredit the entire system and those that take part in it fairly just because there exists some population of cheaters.

also, in case you didn't see:
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/t...8004856?page=1

That PR spin from Blizz is straight out bullshit. That only covers win-trading and boosting, not all of the other crap as I said like kickbots and scripting which is the real issue in the vast majority of everyday matches, especially at mid to highish MMR.

That post only DQ's titles/mounts at end of season for phony CRs and DQs them from the next Blizzcon tourney, not perma-bans of accts. What a joke. But it's the usual bullshit PR kool-aid that fanboys lap up every season or xpac from Blizz while ignoring the real issues.

In case you didn't see: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1870181-Cheating ...a thread I posted nearly a year ago, and cheating is still as rampant as ever or actually worse. Lots of links and threads to check out with clear evidence, and plenty more that can be found on AJ and elsewhere.

Blizz is fooling no one but noobs or those in heavy denial.

[wombats23]

That's right, my (and many other's) beef is with Blizzard. AFAIK most players never asked for this. But it is our decision to accept or reject what they're doing to the game, and vote with our feet. Many have rejected it and that's why subs have tanked.

you're grasping for straws if you think what's upcoming in legion is why subs tanked in wod. people didn't even know what was going to happen in legion until the past year. come on now.

Higher-powered raid gear is needed to face the next higher tier of bosses; PvP is not about gear advantage but about a player's skill with his toon and knowledge of strats, comps, classes, and maps. PvP is about fighting the next higher CR/MMR players and groups, not the next higher level armor/DPS/HPS from gear.

you can do heroic raids with heroic gear from the previous tier. you can do mythic with the current heroic gear. so why is mythic gear necessary?

PvP is about playing other players. that's the only requirement of PvP.

blizzard has decided to reintroduce player progression, a standard in RPGs, to PvP. at worst, it results in a 10% difference in gear strength. realistically it's 1-3%, assuming you play regularly. 1-3% difference in gear will not be the deciding factor in who wins a PvP match. skill and RNG will play far bigger roles. you want to play a PvP game where there's no factor of player progression? then play something other than an RPG.

I don't know any competitive sport worth its salt that gives the top gear/equipment or a +X% arbitrary advantage to the current champions, while challengers are given inferior gear and are expected to overcome not only the lesser gear or arbitrary %, but also the champ's experience and ability. If anything it would be the opposite, like a golf handicap on higher average players to level the field for challengers.

You don't race the 100m dash wearing worn out $30. Chuck Taylors and starting 2m or 5m or 9m behind the pack. Derp.

the x% advantage is the difference between playing a real life sport and an esport.

your local football team only has access to a certain amount of gear/equipment. your olympic team has gear and equipment provided to them by sponsors. the team also gets money from its country.

your regular PvPer has to climb through the ladder himself. getting gear where he can. your professional PvPer compete in GCD or bilzzcon, where gear is provided to you.

People que dodge all the time; also because of the low participation in Rated PvP and the MMR system, you often run into much higher MMR groups than your MMR. If those higher MMR's have an unfair gear advantage over lower MMRs it'll create even greater imbalance.

you're revealing other problems with PvP. if people are facing others around their MMR, then there won't be a "significant" difference in gear strength. queue dodging is a separate issue. in both cases, gear is the not the main issue at hand. low participation isn't because of gear. it's because of people not enjoying WoD, not enjoying playing against cheaters, etc.


That PR spin from Blizz is straight out bullshit. That only covers win-trading and boosting, not all of the other crap as I said like kickbots and scripting which is the real issue in the vast majority of everyday matches, especially at mid to highish MMR.

you ignored the previous ban waves on scripters and botters.

That post only DQ's titles/mounts at end of season for phony CRs and DQs them from the next Blizzcon tourney, not perma-bans of accts. What a joke. But it's the usual bullshit PR kool-aid that fanboys lap up every season or xpac from Blizz while ignoring the real issues.

In case you didn't see: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1870181-Cheating ...a thread I posted nearly a year ago, and cheating is still as rampant as ever or actually worse. Lots of links and threads to check out with clear evidence, and plenty more that can be found on AJ and elsewhere.

Blizz is fooling no one but noobs or those in heavy denial.

the real question is whether or not enough of those that were previous banned/DQ'd returned to cheating. if enough were discouraged enough to cheat again, then the ban waves were a success for both sides. blizzard continues to make money while there is also less cheating on the ladder.

that said, perma banning really does seem like the better decision, can't truly defend bilzzard on that.

was lazy so typed my responses in bold.

it'll be interesting to see if people at high ratings will be discouraged from cheating considering how their reason for cheating (titles, mounts) were straight up taken away from them. while i agree that not perma-banning them is a mistake, perhaps this will provide enough motivation for at least those players to not cheat anymore.


anyway, back to the original topic. i don't see a big deal with an up to 10% difference in gear power. rng, skill (, bots, scripts) will always be a bigger issue than a small difference in gear power. WoW is an RPG, and RPGs should have player progression at its forefront.

[Deleted]

so rurts is first talking about stats on live. (unless he's implying he's from the future and knows what the end of expansion gear in legion looks like)

Idd, that was unclear, let me clarify: I tested in on my character on live, with 50 ilvls of difference (greens vs endgame mythic), got the numbers from my post.

Then later I looked at beta at a similar ilvl difference and got similar results (in line with yours, more or less, I should also add that in the case of haste/mastery I meant 1% as "1 percentile point, such as having Haste go from 18% to 19%" not actual fold change). At any rate that's several % difference top to bottom, probably not more than 5%, considering the time it takes to deck yourself in full 880 as well as the fact that even completely casual players will have more than 805 ilvl of course.

[Dizzeeyooo]

The PvP gear from non rateds is only ilvl 805. Mythics are 880.

titanforged can bump the 880 up to 890 or 895, legendaries are also a base ilvl of 895

[Deleted]

why cant they just make all gear equal in pvp content apart from the high rated pvp gear witch i agree should have higher stats ?

[Thelxi]

The ball is rolling man, get ready for more and more and more RNG as the game evolves. Removing justice and valor, sockets, adding warforged now titanforged, Ashran loot etc.. it is all a gradual sneaky infusion of more and more RNG into the game that will only get worse over time. It's so gradual though that most people won't notice let alone mind. It all adds up though and eventually we will be playing a time-gated diablo game.