Colin Kaepernick: I won't stand 'to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses

[Wells]

Poverty leads to crime, crime leads to gangs, gangs lead to more police presence, more police presence leads to distrust, which leads to prejudices in all directions. Of course there is more that goes into this than just that. None of this is racism though. Racism is the easy label that people put on situation to think of themselves as really progressive and kewl instead of thinking of actual solutions to problems that don't count on pitting races against each other.

Its not hard to see how racism enforced that poverty. Reduced access to home loans, hiring discrimination, etc etc etc. Its not like black people just started off poor for no reason.

My problem with the whole discussion in general on this kind of subject is people often look at the whole situation purely in terms of now, which is simply not a useful time frame. They look at our laws and society now, which do on the whole pretty good and think "well, what's up black people, why the bad stuff" and don't take into account that when we look at issues like crime and poverty 20-30 years ago is no time at all and things were shitty in the extreme then.

- - - Updated - - -

There is a lot of value in being able to prioritize factors. Only an ideologically greedy person would think "All of the causes I fight for are top factors!".

When someone says that you be sure to let them know.

[Spunt]

At least we've established it's not racism holding them back.

[PC2]

Its not like black people just started off poor for no reason.

Yes they did start off poor for no reason. Unless you believe in some god that created them with plenty of resources. Africa has always been poor and has never had a successful middle class civilization like Europe. The majority of slaves taken had an entirely dirt poor history.

[Wells]

Because we can't change the past we can only change the present and future. Helping people rise out of poverty should be a top priority, and you don't do that by calling every other race racist until it happens magically. You don't do it by alienating the people who can help you accomplish your goals.

Sure, but not really understanding how recent the damage actually was and how that can effect things to this day leads to some really dumb claims like waxing on about "a culture of violence" like that explains or means anything.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes they did start off poor for no reason. Unless you believe in some god that created them with plenty of resources. Africa has always been poor and has never had a successful middle class civilization like Europe. The majority of slaves taken had an entirely dirt poor history.

I was referring more to the several centuries of being property and another century+ of being legally enforced second class citizens.

Also you might want to bone up on African history.

[dark666105]

Looking over the usage rates, it is probably not wise to just go by the ever used weed listing like vox did. One should set it to Number of Days Used Marijuana in Past 12 Months BY Race and Ethnicity. That seems to paint a much more complete picture about usage.

[Spunt]

Just legalize drugs already.

[Wells]

I mean they are sort of right in that claim, it's that like you say they are missing the other pieces. That "Culture of violence" comes from gangs, which comes from kids needing emotional support they aren't getting at home, as well as extreme poverty.

This is why at least to me referring to a problem as "racism" is unhelpful, because it doesn't actually provide solutions beyond "stop being racist" but... Does anyone actually think they are racist? Who here actually believes black people are inferior to whites? I assume very few of us.

Oh come on. Activists on this issue hardly stop at "this situation is racist, stop it".

[MMOmaxi]

The issue for me here is the fact that people are getting murdered by the police.
We can talk about whether there is racism in America all day long, but when you start getting bodybags, that's when stuff actually gets real.

Can't the US police protect its citizens without murdering them?
To begin with, is executoin without trial or jury the norm in USA nowadays?

[PC2]

I was referring more to the several centuries of being property and another century+ of being legally enforced second class citizens.

Yeah white people were slaves in previous centuries too. It isn't an excuse for anything in the present.

Also you might want to bone up on African history.

Africa never had a successful middle class civilization.

[Deleted]

The people who are proud of their country are happy to know their neighbor. And the name of the streets in a low radius. Oh and they hope the global companies that run their 90% of other life do not screw up.

Like google going down means a lot more than some regional company 10miles away going down.

[GennGreymane]

I feel like when someone does it, an opponent of what every their msg is uses it as a get out of criticism/debate card and a free pass to be offended

[LordAmbrosia]

The issue for me here is the fact that people are getting murdered by the police.
We can talk about whether there is racism in America all day long, but when you start getting bodybags, that's when stuff actually gets real.

Can't the US police protect its citizens without murdering them?
To begin with, is executoin without trial or jury the norm in USA nowadays?

It doesn't actually happen that much. Its just that the media realized they can string together small incidents as part of some kind of "growing epidemic". Thousands of people are murdered every year, it's something that has always happened, and 2 or 3 with big spotlights somehow changes peoples mind.

Also that last sentence is absolutely ridiculous in ways I can't begin to explain.

[yetgdhfgh]

He has a right to be a unpatriotic prick just as lucrative sponsors have a right to be a un-endorsing pricks!

[dark666105]

It doesn't actually happen that much. Its just that the media realized they can string together small incidents as part of some kind of "growing epidemic". Thousands of people are murdered every year, it's something that has always happened, and 2 or 3 with big spotlights somehow changes peoples mind.

Also that last sentence is absolutely ridiculous in ways I can't begin to explain.

Not to mention they heavily downplay the self defense aspect the officer was in in most incidents.

[GennGreymane]

He has a right to be a unpatriotic prick just as lucrative sponsors have a right to be a un-endorsing pricks!

Patriotism has nothing to do with doing what you are told

[Wells]

Yeah white people were slaves in previous centuries too. It isn't an excuse for anything in the present.

Sure, the Irish got a shitty deal. However, the forms of slavery they faced were neither as severe or as lasting, nor did they face as extended a period of social oppression.

Its not all about slavery though really. We're talking about people only a generation removed from the 80s, with all its super racist shittiness. Or just a generation or two removed from open segregation. "whites only" is a thing that has existed in living memory. And that's just the open discrimination. That kind of oppression lingers and the damage lasts long after the direct injustices are stopped.

Africa never had a successful middle class civilization.

Fine, define "successful".

[yetgdhfgh]

Patriotism has nothing to do with doing what you are told

Human beings love symbols its the glue that keeps countries and society together. Making a political statement by disrespecting that symbol does not help your cause instead it always goes against it.

You dont change the world by preaching to the choir instead you change it by reaching out to those who don't normally subscribe to your ideas. Now look at gay marriage me and my dad decades ago was dead against that but because homosexuals went about there cause in a sensible none threatening manner and appealing to those who didnt agree with there views they have finally changed me and my fathers mind and have won there right to marriage.

This stunt is just another red rag to a raging bull and it will just pour more fuel on a the already burning fire!

[anyaka21]

Sure, but not really understanding how recent the damage actually was and how that can effect things to this day leads to some really dumb claims like waxing on about "a culture of violence" like that explains or means anything.

- - - Updated - - -



I was referring more to the several centuries of being property and another century+ of being legally enforced second class citizens.

Also you might want to bone up on African history.

but it's part of the issue, in terms of "culture of violence." Rappers are put on a pedastal, for the most part. But in order to be successful, they need street cred, or like 50cent, having gone to prison. Or calling Russell Wilson too white because he's articulate, intelligent, and a nice guy.

Thus dismissing things like "culture of violence", or poor family structures, fatherlessness, etc... and continuing to ask for the root of the problem, when people are showing you a lot of roots means you really aren't paying attention to anyone else's arguments. You've already made up your mind with your own preconceived conclusions.

[Typhoria]

Fine, define "successful".

Any then? Africa as a whole is dominated by a ruling upper class, and a lower class. There is no "middle class" and there is no advancing. They are either born rich or born poor. The rich people stay rich and the poor people struggle to survive.

[GennGreymane]

Human beings love symbols its the glue that keeps countries and society together. Making a political statement by disrespecting that symbol does not help your cause instead it always goes against it.

You dont change the world by preaching to the choir instead you change it by reaching out to those who don't normally subscribe to your ideas. Now look at gay marriage me and my dad decades ago was dead against that but because homosexuals went about there cause in a sensible none threatening manner and appealing to those who didnt agree with there views they have finally changed me and my fathers mind and have won there right to marriage.

This stunt is just another red rag to a raging bull and it will just pure more fuel on a the already burning fire!

I will quote another great man to retort what you say.

I feel like when someone does it, an opponent of what every their msg is uses it as a get out of criticism/debate card and a free pass to be offended