27% of Europeans say rape may be acceptable in some circumstances

[Ifeanychukwu]

You do realise that there are unreasonable people all over the world? Also there is a fair amount of men that think that you cant rape your wife just because she is your wife, as if that would somehow make her their property that they can do with as they wish when they wish it.

The study didn't gather data from people all over the world.

[Coconut]

I'm sorry, but this is not what is said at all. He said that he does not wait, as soon as he sees a woman he deems beautiful he goes to kiss her and fondle her without her permission. This is, btw, exactly the kind of sexual assault that over a dozen women accused him of, both before and after the tape went public. It may not be perceived as sexual assault by Trump, or by many people, but it is. This is simply a fact.

He isn't saying that they want him to do it. He is saying that he can get away with it do to his wealth/status. If you don't believe me, listen to his interview on Howard Stern: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIvFHFboWEU

I think you are heavily interpreting that he starts kissing and touching women without implied permission or that he continues to do it if said permission is denied. The first story he said in that video was literally about him being rejected. The second is macho bragging and it comes off as really pathetic and insecure, the kind of discussion you'd hear between men who have no idea how to actually turn a woman on, but it literally contains the words "they let you do anything", which imply content.

Same as the Howard Stern link. Is it sleazy that he's organizing beauty pageants so he can see pretty women naked? Yes. Is it pathetic that the employees are telling the girls to fawn over him? Abso-fucking-lutely. Does he actually rape them? No. Do they tell him no? Apparently not. "Who do you complain to? He owns the pageant", the interviewee said. She could always leave... the pageant isn't even a job, and in fact objectifying women is pretty much the point of such an event!

What's actually going on there is that Trump likes to take advantage of women. That doesn't mean they don't consent. People take advantage of other people all the time with their consent, using many tools, such as social position, ties, sex, emotional manipulation, dependency, ideology, marketing... and many times the "victim" has a lot less agency than that girl had to just leave the pageant, or a groupie to slap a groping Trump.

[Huulo]

I think you are heavily interpreting that he starts kissing and touching women without implied permission or that he continues to do it if said permission is denied. The first story he said in that video was literally about him being rejected. The second is macho bragging and it comes off as really pathetic and insecure, the kind of discussion you'd hear between men who have no idea how to actually turn a woman on, but it literally contains the words "they let you do anything", which imply content.

Same as the Howard Stern link. Is it sleazy that he's organizing beauty pageants so he can see pretty women naked? Yes. Is it pathetic that the employees are telling the girls to fawn over him? Abso-fucking-lutely. Does he actually rape them? No. Do they tell him no? Apparently not. "Who do you complain to? He owns the pageant", the interviewee said. She could always leave... the pageant isn't even a job, and in fact objectifying women is pretty much the point of such an event!

What's actually going on there is that Trump likes to take advantage of women. That doesn't mean they don't consent. People take advantage of other people all the time with their consent, using many tools, such as social position, ties, sex, emotional manipulation, dependency, ideology, marketing... and many times the "victim" has a lot less agency than that girl had to just leave the pageant, or a groupie to slap a groping Trump.

Just to be clear, if the allegations of groping/forced kissing against Trump are true, would that count as sexual assault in your view or would that just be taking advantage of women? Is it a factor at all that many of the girls he spied on were underage?

[Deleted]

Yikes.
Just what is going on here?

Multiculturalism & cultural relativism.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Just to be clear, cornering women, forcibly kissing them, grabbing at their genetalia IS sexual assault. Spying on underage girls while they're changing is an extension of that attitude, and the belief that he has the right to get away with it. I think this is where the conversation gets derailed, because a lot of people don't understand that. By the way, I never said that people voted for Trump because of this, just that they were willing to overlook it or rationalize it, which is exactly the kind of cultural attitude that needs to be changed. Unfortunately, overlooking or rationalizing this kind of behavior is still very common. And if you examples from popular culture of it being normalized/romanticized, you can find a few dozen here:

http://www.cracked.com/blog/how-men-...t-no-big-deal/

Also, your experience of two drunk people having sex is not what we're talking about here. Rather, we're talking about someone being assaulted after they've passed out or are too drunk to fight back. Unfortunately, a lot of people still don't understand that this is assault, so I'm trying to encourage more discussion about it. I'm not trying to be accusatory, but foster dialogue. The difficult thing is that people often get defensive and shut down as soon as the topic is brought up.

Firstly, cracked is shit. Secondly, my usage of you was in general, not YOU specifically.

The issue is you're being overly specific and then proclaiming that a rape culture exists. Within the confines of alcohol usage (BTW I think your discussion on alcohol just mentioned drinking = can't consent) Its a vast vast vast vast minority of cases being where some guy see an underage girl and sticks his dick in her. Thats why the rape culture gets so much dismissal. Because I'd say 99% of the time, with alcohol involved, its just two tipsy/drunk people having sex. I just don't think the overly specific examples you're bringing up are anything but rare. I'll also repeat, I don't think very many people think thats actually okay. While is does happen, I'm very sure the perpetrator knows its wrong but doesn't think they'll get caught.

I'll again say the issue is how you're lumping all those things together as "rape" culture, and thats problematic on many levels. Walking up to a girl and kissing her (whether she ends up liking it or not) is an extreme far cry from beating the crap out of a woman and forcing your penis inside her while holding her a gun point. Thats why people are dismissive and and don't like talking about this subject.

Your own Cracked article explains some of those things well enough, but it doesn't really help your points much. Mainly because women saunter after men in the first example of that article. Real life women find that steamy and hot and sexy. And here is the issue. A man tries that and suddenly the RAPE CULTURE! alarms go off. If you as a woman get approached by George Clooney, and he does that, I'd say HE would get a much different reaction than someone like Kevin Malone from The Office. This ties in nicely to example 5, women like to be pursued.... unless you're too ugly? This ambiguous behavior causes the real issue, its not "dirty, rapey, men." Whether anyone on this forum likes to admit that women actively signal they want to be pursued, doesn't matter because it happens. (Again, unless you are ugly)

[Serpha]

What survey? I didn't get any. What consent? Contract signed in blood? Who were those people "surveyed"?

[Sosoulsu]

I agree with this.

My point was more along the lines that a lot of stuff that rape apologists would like to classify as being "borderline" and thereby making the accused deserving of "presumption of innocence" would really not be that borderline if we had a culture that refused to accept them as such.


We live in a society where the idea of meeting a stranger, getting them horribly drunk and then having sex with them without ever establishing ground rules first is seen as acceptable. So when the alleged victim cries rape, then the apologists jump up and down about presumption of innocence. But if we change the laws and our culture to reflect that such an attitude is not ok, and that consent obtained from a drunk person cannot be assumed to be consent, then the simple presumption of innocence will be a lot easier to overcome.


What it essentially boils down to is that people shouldn't take the benefit of the doubt when deciding to have sex with someone who may not be in a position to give proper consent. And if they do, then they are putting themselves at risk if a rape accusation arises as a result.

But our society doesn't want to do that, because a lot of people are worried that they'll get less sex. Which is absolutely retarded, because:
a) we're putting our need for sexual pleasure ahead of someone else's need to be protected from rape.
b) people want sex anyway, so it will still happen, but people will become more responsible about it.

Question: Have you ever had casual sex with someone you met that day?
A lot of the time, those encounters have alcohol involved.

There is a lot of subtext involved in sexual relationships between people. You will very rarely see this exchange:

"Well Lisa, I enjoyed sharing some drinks with you."
"I enjoyed sharing drinks with you as well, Ron."
"I was wondering if you would like to join me in my apartment for two to three hours in order to drink a small bit more and then engage in intimate sexual activity? I would leave it up to you whether or not to spend the night after we have concluded."
"That sounds agreeable and I offer you my full consent to the following acts:
-Oral sex (giving)
-Oral sex (receiving)
-Vaginal sex (receiving)
-Light striking (slapping of the hindquarters and upper-thigh)
-Light choking for a brief period of time
-Kissing (with tongue)
However, if at any point during our engagements, I ever say "Stop", you are to cease immidietly. A singular second further and I will be forced to pursue criminal sexual battery charges. Do you agree?"
"I do. Let us engage in these activities forthwith."

It simply does not work like this.

And I disagree with the notion that Western society finds it acceptable to feed drinks into a person to get them blackout drunk before having sex with them. This notion is ludicrous. it's universally seen as an unacceptable thing to do, and the majority of individuals would agree that it is rape.

But if both adults are inebriated, and start kissing and groping one another and grinding together and start shedding clothes, that is not rape, and if anybody thinks it is, they're wrong.

[Daedius]

And what's the sample amount of people per poll of each country... 5 from certain ethnic areas ?

[Coconut]

Just to be clear, if the allegations of groping/forced kissing against Trump are true, would that count as sexual assault in your view or would that just be taking advantage of women? Is it a factor at all that many of the girls he spied on were underage?

If the kissing and groping is "forced", then it is assault. If the woman kisses back or smiles awkwardly while he gropes her without saying no (and she isn't passed out, if I need to specify) because "he's a superstar and she can't say no", then no, it is not rape. She should have told him to stop, or preferably she should have slapped the orange paint off his face or kicked him in the groin, because that would be more satisfying to imagine.

The age of the girls would have been a factor, of course, if it was mentioned in the link you provided. Obviously I don't know everything about Trump, I'm not American and I never thought he would get elected, so...

[Deleted]

That's cool and all but what about the 80% of women who would like to have a say in giving consent?

What about the 73% of men who don't think rape is acceptable?

[Deleted]

Do people seriously rape in current year? It's so immature and rude.

[Deleted]

Do people seriously rape in current year? It's so immature and rude.

I always take my shoes off before I do any raping

It's called manners people

[Deleted]

I always take my shoes off before I do any raping

It's called manners people

"You first".

[Deleted]

Having sex without consent IS rape.

And he didnt refute that, he said "without asking for consent" you dont need a verbal yes or no answer if said person has her/his arms locked around you and trying to undress you. It's understood anyhow.

One night stands and dating culture as a whole doesnt exactly include "Say, would you care for some deviancy?" To use fancy wording.

This study looked for a normalisation of rape, and used veiled questions to find the statistics it wanted.


No one is arguing about wheter or not consent has to be given, the argument is about it actually being spoken. Which it most often isnt.

And why is this topic still alive? MMO-Champ is becoming even less logical than usual lately.

And seriously people, Read the damn study. I know fact checking is hard and all, and to those thinking Europe is "bad" with this, trust me when I say, I seriously doubt anywhere else in the world would've faired better.

[Tennis]

What about the 73% of men who don't think rape is acceptable?

What about them? They're not the problem.

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Basically, they asked people if they thought two drunk people having sex was rape, then the findings were sensationalised to make a news story, then you bolded specific parts to sensationalise it further to make this thread.

I've been around different places and seen multiple posters on consent. It seems that the law says that drunk people cannot give consent.

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This is the elephant in the room everybody pretends isn't there.

Nice try. Immigrants make up a really small percentage of the countries in this list with troubling attitudes towards rape.

[Coconut]

Nice try. Immigrants make up a really small percentage of the countries in this list with troubling attitudes towards rape.

Hey Tennisace. I understand you probably don't browse the entire thread, it got a bit long, but would you mind answering to my concerns about the way the survey was formulated?

Can't help but notice how loaded the question is. It would have been nice to put it in the OP, since you already quoted a fair chunk of the article, but let's have a look:

"Some people believe that having sexual intercourse without consent may be justified in some situations. Do you think this applies to the following circumstances?

- Wearing revealing, provocative or sexy clothing
- Being drunk or using drugs
- Flirting beforehand
- Not clearly saying no or physically fighting back
- Being out walking alone at night
- Having several sexual partners
- Voluntarily going home with someone, such as a party or date
- If the assailant does not realize what they were doing
- If the assailant regrets their actions"

Notice how the question isn't "Do you find non-consensual sex acceptable in any of these situations?". It's "Hey, some people find non-consensual sex acceptable in some circumstances. What do you think those circumstances are?", or "What excuses do you know rapists are using to justify themselves?". It's framed in a way that makes respondents think they aren't giving their own opinions here, but making a guess about "some people", regardless of what they may think about them.

The question is also glaringly missing a "None of the above" answer. I guess the only way to say you aren't condoning rape in any form was to ignore it entirely, or to make up a special answer, which might not come to mind if this was part of a larger form.

The only reason the UK, Netherlands, Spain and the Scandinavian states managed to get low scores was because SJW culture is stronger there and people realized it was a trick question, while many Hungarians and Romanians assumed in earnest that they're supposed to pick at least one answer.

It's also a matter of how this question, which is dicy as it is, was translated in these various languages, someone was already complaining on the linked article page that the Estonian translation was misleading even compared to the English version.

[Tennis]

What? Nope, that's now how it works in Europe.

Well according to the article you have 27% thinking it is ok in some circumstances.

And some circumstances include a woman being alone at night or how a woman is dressed.

Not cool!

[Deleted]

Are we talking the "yeah lets go to my place" consent or the American consent where you actually need a paraphrased document not to get in trouble?

[Xirrohon]

Well according to the article you have 27% thinking it is ok in some circumstances.

And some circumstances include a woman being alone at night or how a woman is dressed.

Not cool!

what about the 20% of women who said it was ok?

[Tennis]

Are we talking the "yeah lets go to my place" consent or the American consent where you actually need a paraphrased document not to get in trouble?

Look at the article. Over 20% in some countries think rape is ok if a woman is wearing provocative clothing.

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Neither views nor beliefs can ever be illegal, what can be illegal is action. Furthermore it is naive to think that law or otherwise authorities are always right, if that was the case there wouldn't be need to change and adjust law all the time. And yes prosecuting or convicting someone of rape because the consent was withdrew after the act is one of the clear cases where authorities are in the wrong. That said rape in it real meaning(forcing other party to perform sexual activities of any kind) is never okey.

This survey is badly made - questions/scenarios are not unequivocal. Also as it offensive to males, as it assumes they are the only ones committing it.

If one has an illegal view then it could lead to an illegal action. This is why we must be vigilant.