Ohio passes 'heartbeat' abortion bill

[Elegiac]

Does it? It'd be interesting to see before and after statistics from countries that already do this. Intuitively I don't see how it'd have much of an effect. Children are still a huge cost, throughout their lives.

http://www.businessinsider.com/scien...d-for-everyone
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/01/up...eave.html?_r=0
http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/29/health...dren-research/
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-s...l-leave-helps/

America isn't dependent on immigration to keep a steady population. And unabashed immigration is a large factor in our economy doing so poorly.

US' native fertility rate is in the realm of 1.88 per woman, replacement is about 2.1.

So, no. The US like the vast majority of developed countries requires immigration to sustain growth.

[Azadina]

So just because social benefits outweigh the negatives we should do it (In your own mind, of course)?

Imagine the social benefits that could be gotten from Bill Gates wealth...

Which he has already promised to give away to be used for the good of those lesser fortuned. Good luck getting such motion from rich Republicans.

[Taneras]

it's your money, but it's going to give an employee time to recover and adjust themselves. far be it for me to appeal to your sympathy. what cause? there are several.

Where does it stop, though?

Why not also force the employer to pay for the child's food or clothes as well?

Sympathies and time to recover, right?

[Elegiac]

So just because social benefits outweigh the negatives we should do it (In your own mind, of course)?

If sufficiently overcoming the cons, yes. Political policy is at its core a cost/benefit analysis.

Imagine the social benefits that could be gotten from Bill Gates wealth...

Taxing the wealthy more would be a good option, yes.

[Halyon]

Your avatar is very accurate...

If you're of the perspective that human life is created at conception, then demanding more self accountability for the decisions that led to the conception of that child is understandable.

Having an abortion IS taking responsibility. Just not one YOU condone.

[Elegiac]

Where does it stop, though?

Why not also force the employer to pay for the child's food or clothes as well?

God forbid employers should have to pay wages...

[Sky High]

Where does it stop, though?

Why not also force the employer to pay for the child's food or clothes as well?

Sympathies and time to recover, right?

are you serious? it's a pay check they get ether other week as per usual until they get back. I would think the end line would be pretty fucking obvious.

[Saucexorzski]

If businesses stop stocking pork products due to an unusually high local Muslim/Jewish population that makes stocking such products a poor decision, then I really don't have a problem with it.

Exactly. Thus if folks in ohio want abortion regulated to this level its up to them to decide. Personally, i think its silly when ever freedom is blocked by legislation though, be it pork, broccoli, or abortions. its a shame that this is what the republicans think our country needs.

[Taneras]

http://www.businessinsider.com/scien...d-for-everyone
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/01/up...eave.html?_r=0
http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/29/health...dren-research/
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-s...l-leave-helps/

Do any of those show that birth rates go up in high education families due to maternity pay?

US' native fertility rate is in the realm of 1.88 per woman, replacement is about 2.1.

So, no. The US like the vast majority of developed countries requires immigration to sustain growth.

In 2007 or 2008 it was around 2.1 or 2.2. No doubt that a slow economy is partly responsible, but I don't think that maternity pay is the best way to fix the issue.

[PassingBy]

So your against the death penalty then right? If all life is precious and valuable then you must be ok with forcing a woman who got raped to have the child as well....

You don't get to pick and chose. Ether you are all in or not.

I am against the death penalty, even though it is irrelevant for the sake of this discussion.

And as I said before - it is a matter of us drawing an imaginary line.
If we approve of death penalty - the line is the person committing the crime after which he is not considered a human being, but rather a function of his deeds, that deserves to be killed.

Same with abortions in case of imminent threat to mother's health, or in case the doctors are completely sure that the child will be born gravely ill.
My coworker and his wife were expecting twins. At some point the doctors told them that their future children will be born with severe defects, and strongly suggested an abortion. They have decided to not do it. Children were born sick. First one died in 3 days. The other one survived, but the damage to her nervous system is too severe. She is blind, she can barely move, she is 4 years old now and she can barely talk, and she most likely will not live long.
Some will say that their choice was brave and that they are heroes. Some will say that they are idiots and they are torturing themselves and the poor girl.

In such cases drawing the line is more or less easy.

In other cases it is harder.

Your rape example, that you wanted to shame me with, lets say that the poor girl was not only raped, but also abducted and held hostage for several months. And when she gets into the hospital she is 29-30 weeks pregnant. Shall we force her to have the child? Or shall we let her abort it, even though it is already viable with additional medical assistance?

If we believe that all choice is precious and valuable - we shouldn't care and just abort it, right?

What is more let's say this woman says that she feels too damaged and hurt after the rape and she would like to take her life. Shall we let her make the choice, or will we try to force her to deal with her abuse and go on with her life?

You don't get to pick and choose. Either you are all in or not, right?

Except you do get to pick and choose. The society does to pick and choose, to decide where we draw the lines, where we make compromises, and where we stand strong on some principles. Where we change our beliefs, and where we fight to enforce them. And so on.

[Public Enemy Truth]

Infracted – Minor flaming, despite –I– being on the actual receiving end of such “flaming”? Called an “idiot” & “retarded”? It is more like a moderator disagrees with my opinion, and triggerfully sought any means to “condemn my terrible actions.”

Congratulations. MMO-champion does not allow discussion; it only favors a side, and censors anyone else. It is an echo-chamber, anyone with the genuine capability standing up to another to the extent they must keep calling you “logicless” is hammered.

It's a safe-space. It is now in line with Reddit, Twitter, Facebook, Google, Apple, and others in broad censorship. I took print-screens, screenshots, in the event the Internet will ever hold this trial again.

I will take my leave. The “debate” was fun while it lasted, but is no longer allowed with such powerful influence(s).

If you're of the perspective that human life is created at conception, then demanding more self accountability for the decisions that led to the conception of that child is understandable.

This is a –very– reasonable post. Very few in 2016/2017 of whom are open to differing perspectives.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Your avatar is very accurate...

If you're of the perspective that human life is created at conception, then demanding more self accountability for the decisions that led to the conception of that child is understandable.

Not really, considering how ridiculous that premise is...

[Taneras]

If sufficiently overcoming the cons, yes. Political policy is at its core a cost/benefit analysis.

Taxing the wealthy more would be a good option, yes.

But imagine how much more social benefit could come from Bill Gates wealth if we took 99.9% of it. Sure it'd be a con for him and his family, but it'd do so much good for everyone else.

My point is simple, just because taking money from someone to give to someone else helps that someone else doesn't mean we should do it.

- - - Updated - - -

Having an abortion IS taking responsibility. Just not one YOU condone.

I'm Pro-Choice.

[Elegiac]

Do any of those show that birth rates go up in high education families due to maternity pay?

The 'high education' isn't the point, the point is that making being a parent financially easier pays dividends. As evidenced by France, Korea, and Japan - whereas the US birthrate is powered pretty much by teen pregnancy and Mexicans.

In 2007 or 2008 it was around 2.1 or 2.2. No doubt that a slow economy is partly responsible, but I don't think that maternity pay is the best way to fix the issue.

Yeah what does constructive social policy matter when some business owners might have to actually provide benefits.

[Taneras]

God forbid employers should have to pay wages...

Yes, like I said, why stop at maternity leave, make those greedy business owners pay for the kids food and clothes too!

[Elegiac]

But imagine how much more social benefit could come from Bill Gates wealth if we took 99.9% of it. Sure it'd be a con for him and his family, but it'd do so much good for everyone else.

We've seen in previous historical examples that outright confiscation on that level is socially deleterious, so...no. You're making ridiculous arguments.

My point is simple, just because taking money from someone to give to someone else helps that someone else doesn't mean we should do it.

Which is why we do it when it helps both parties involved in the long run. Go figure.

[Jtbrig7390]

I am against the death penalty, even though it is irrelevant for the sake of this discussion.

And as I said before - it is a matter of us drawing an imaginary line.

There is no imaginary line being drawn. You have no right to tell a woman what she can do with her body.

Its that simple. Abortion isn't murder and its a constitutional right.

Your rape example, that you wanted to shame me with, lets say that the poor girl was not only raped, but also abducted and held hostage for several months. And when she gets into the hospital she is 29-30 weeks pregnant. Shall we force her to have the child? Or shall we let her abort it, even though it is already viable with additional medical assistance?

You are now the one making a imaginary line.

You say abortion is murder unless X,Y,Z. It does not work this way, ether you are saying its murder and are against Abortion or you say it isn't murder and for it.

By ur logic "and this law" the raped girl would have to keep the baby.

Once again you have no right to tell another human being what they can and can't do with there body. Also once again Abortion isn't murder this is a fact and your opinion doesn't change it.

[Taneras]

The 'high education' isn't the point, the point is that making being a parent financially easier pays dividends.

No, that wasn't the claim Crissi made. You linked articles in a response I made against a claim Crissi made about higher educated families and maternity leave.

Yeah what does constructive social policy matter when some business owners might have to actually provide benefits.

Right, so lets also make them pay for the child's clothes and food. Anything else we need to add on?

[Zoldor]

Infracted – Minor flaming, despite –I– being on the actual receiving end of such “flaming”? Called an “idiot” & “retarded”? It is more like a moderator disagrees with my opinion, and triggerfully sought any means to “condemn my terrible actions.”

Congratulations. MMO-champion does not allow discussion; it only favors a side, and censors anyone else. It is an echo-chamber, anyone with the genuine capability standing up to another to the extent they must keep calling you “logicless” is hammered.

It's a safe-space. It is now in line with Reddit, Twitter, Facebook, Google, Apple, and others in broad censorship. I took print-screens, screenshots, in the event the Internet will ever hold this trial again.

I will take my leave. The “debate” was fun while it lasted, but is no longer allowed with such powerful influence(s).

This is a –very– reasonable post. Very few in 2016/2017 of whom are open to differing perspectives.

Perceives injustice to self based on opinion. Blames moderation. Calls site safe space. Takes Ball and goes home. Misses all the irony.

[nextormento]

Yes, like I said, why stop at maternity leave, make those greedy business owners pay for the kids food and clothes too!

We might in the future.
Companies distribute salaries as a function of the very minimum they can give without the employee running away.
Similarly, we can extract the maximum from companies without scaring them away.

Slippery slopes aside, optimum points don't necessarily require maximizing variables.