"Pay to Win"

[Deleted]

why are people still posting about this

[ComputerNerd]

You have freaking quoted it, im not the one refusing anything here, you are. Move along paid shill.

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No it does not, its very clear who pays whom. This is just you not accepting the obvious p2w status of wow, whatever makes you sleep at night.

I have seen only a small and very vague description.
The repeated refusal is proof that you dont have an argument.
I have been told it is "simple", yet single words have been argued successfully to be insufficient, as proven by the "clarifications".
If you need to clarify, then the original statement was insufficient
FACT.
If you did at any point clarify even a single point, then that shows the original was inadequate.

Simple as that.
Any correcting of someone else on the meaning of the original statement shows its meaning isn't defined well enough.
Because nobody can honestly say that "advantage" is a sufficient definition.
My argument about cosmetics, pets or mounts to improve a collection proves that.
That is an "advantage", just not an unacceptable one in your eyes, which as an argument is fine.
But you refuse to put that together in one place.

You lost the argument, and keep refusing to provide what you keep saying is simple and clear.
If it was that simple and clear, why refuse.
Because you are lying.

[Esedess]

Well i can buy wow tokens with real money, put em on the auction house, get in game Gold, then pay in gold to Mythic guilds carries over and over to get mythic loots/rewards/titles..that's not Pay to Win right?

right?

[Deleted]

I have been told it is "simple", yet single words have been argued successfully to be insufficient, as proven by the "clarifications".

There "clarifications" seem to be only necessary for you. I believe a rational person with an average intellect will be able to understand the following definition without clarifications: "Pay2win is the ability to buy an in-game advantage with money."

[ComputerNerd]

There "clarifications" seem to be only necessary for you. I believe a rational person with an average intellect will be able to understand the following definition without clarifications: "Pay2win is the ability to buy an in-game advantage with money."

"Simple" "obvious", yet you keep refusing.
Clarifications prove the original statement to be insufficient, despite claims by yourself it was fine.
You just contradict yourself, again refuse to do something apparently so simple, and again say it is a problem with my intelligence.
Why build an argument when you can just attack the person instead.
Point proven, again.

Something so simple should be trivial for your apparent superior intellect, but your repeated refusal proves otherwise.

Other people have argued with the simplistic definition, not just me.
But you single just me out.
Proves the point.

You can't.

[Deleted]

Player pays the game company?

Yes. It is not possible to legally pay anyone else without a permission from the developer/publisher.

Player pays a third party? Player pays another player?

Illegal and/or against the ToS.

With RL Money?

Yes.

with in-game currency earned in game?

This is normal part of the game.

With in-game currency bought from game company?

Yes.

Or maybe from a 3rd party?

Illegal and/or against the ToS.

[Tharkkun]

Well i can buy wow tokens with real money, put em on the auction house, get in game Gold, then pay in gold to Mythic guilds carries over and over to get mythic loots/rewards/titles..that's not Pay to Win right?

right?

No. Because that same content to accessible to everyone. No one is required to pay to do Mythic content.

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There "clarifications" seem to be only necessary for you. I believe a rational person with an average intellect will be able to understand the following definition without clarifications: "Pay2win is the ability to buy an in-game advantage with money."

Being able to and what is allowed within the rules is two different things. Sure you can buy things with real money but if caught both you and the seller will lose their account. So that's not P2W. There's nothing that can't be achieved by just playing the game. You may have to put some effort into it but that's same as any other game out there.

[PraisCthulhu]

That's not Blizzard's fault, and they're working on cracking down on accounts that purchase gold.

You can buy a WoW token for real money from Blizzard and then sell it on the AH for gold.

Also, you cannot buy gear anywhere near powerful enough for WoW to be P2W

[Fabinas]

it has already been pointed out to you how anything else but the company who is selling the game is cheating.



Huh, say what!? That is exactly you, you are the one with a weird fetish about who does what. The definition has been pointed out numerous times now, you just keep ignoring it. So yea, you are a payed shill.





The only one failing here is you, you have failed to point out why something is or isn't pay to win, you only start stamping your little feet when someone points out how you are wrong.

why is it a problem for you to gather all your scattered parts of your p2w definition in one post so we can discuss it?

I'm not stamping my feet. I keep asking questions you refuse to answer.

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Yes. It is not possible to legally pay anyone else without a permission from the developer/publisher.



Illegal and/or against the ToS.



Yes.



This is normal part of the game.



Yes.



Illegal and/or against the ToS.

I dont care for answers like that. I know those answers. CAN YOU PLEASE PUT the answers of those question to a p2w sdefinition so we can discuss? This is fragmenting the discussion and the basis we should need to discuss.

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Yes. It is not possible to legally pay anyone else without a permission from the developer/publisher.



Illegal and/or against the ToS.



Yes.



This is normal part of the game.



Yes.



Illegal and/or against the ToS.

I dont care for answers like that. I know those answers. CAN YOU PLEASE PUT the answers of those questions to a p2w definition, so we can discuss? This is fragmenting the discussion and the basis we should need to discuss.

Example: Pay2Win is when a Player uses real world currency bought from the game company to buy... etc etc.

Your generic definition is too broad and too simplistic. It also allows for misunderstandings and misinterpretations, taking the discussion to other routes.

If you think it's too much work to do it, then please don't answer and leave the thread. Your and MehMeh's short 2 min typed answers are not helpful, but distracting.

[Deleted]

I have seen only a small and very vague description.
The repeated refusal is proof that you dont have an argument.
I have been told it is "simple", yet single words have been argued successfully to be insufficient, as proven by the "clarifications".
If you need to clarify, then the original statement was insufficient
FACT.
If you did at any point clarify even a single point, then that shows the original was inadequate.

Yet the only thing you have done so far is attack me, not anything that i have said. There was no need to clarify anything, because cheating just isn't p2w.

Just stop attacking me and just try to explain why paying cash in a game to get an adavantage isn't p2w, you can't, that is why you keep attacking me.

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"Simple" "obvious", yet you keep refusing.
Clarifications prove the original statement to be insufficient, despite claims by yourself it was fine.
You just contradict yourself, again refuse to do something apparently so simple, and again say it is a problem with my intelligence.
Why build an argument when you can just attack the person instead.
Point proven, again.

Something so simple should be trivial for your apparent superior intellect, but your repeated refusal proves otherwise.

Other people have argued with the simplistic definition, not just me.
But you single just me out.
Proves the point.

You can't.

And another baseless attack! wow you are on a roll...

[ComputerNerd]

Yet the only thing you have done so far is attack me, not anything that i have said. There was no need to clarify anything, because cheating just isn't p2w.

Just stop attacking me and just try to explain why paying cash in a game to get an adavantage isn't p2w, you can't, that is why you keep attacking me.

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And another baseless attack! wow you are on a roll...

What I did was point out something foolish, claiming that 4 words made an argument.
Why refuse what I have been told should be something you can do easily.

Because it isn't
My argument has merit.
If yours did, why cant you do what is asked.

You keep reverting to single words and wonder why some people can't accept those as a definition of something much larger.
Well that is because they aren't.

"advantage" does despite your insistence otherwise consist of progression in many ways

If we take your definition literally, then "paying to gain an advantage" absolutely does apply to paying another player with gold earned entirely in-game to get a boost, or buy gear, etc.
That is why those 4 words are not sufficient.

Define it properly if you have an argument.
Repeated refusal has only one reason behind it.
You can't.

That is what I am pointing out.
Give me a proper argument that has merit and you might win me over.
4 words is not that.

I am picking fault with the argument as presented.
Give me a better one, a comprehensive one.
One you don't need to amend repeatedly.

[Deleted]

No. Because that same content to accessible to everyone. No one is required to pay to do Mythic content.

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Being able to and what is allowed within the rules is two different things. Sure you can buy things with real money but if caught both you and the seller will lose their account. So that's not P2W. There's nothing that can't be achieved by just playing the game. You may have to put some effort into it but that's same as any other game out there.

That you do not have to pay in order to do mythic content doesn't make it any less p2w. Because, as you can see in the next bit you quoted, the point is that you can buy the gold from blizzard, that is what makes it p2w. The fact that you do not have to play the game normally in order to get into mythic is what makes it p2w.

If blizzard did not sell any gold then the only way to get this gold is by playing the game, so any boost runs bought with gold earned that way isn't p2w. But the moment you can buy gold legally you end up with p2w aspects in the game.

[ComputerNerd]

That you do not have to pay in order to do mythic content doesn't make it any less p2w. Because, as you can see in the next bit you quoted, the point is that you can buy the gold from blizzard, that is what makes it p2w. The fact that you do not have to play the game normally in order to get into mythic is what makes it p2w.

If blizzard did not sell any gold then the only way to get this gold is by playing the game, so any boost runs bought with gold earned that way isn't p2w. But the moment you can buy gold legally you end up with p2w aspects in the game.

Same contradiction as before.
In the same post you say if it wasn't blizzard offering then you couldnt buy it any other way.
And then say that buying it legitimately is P2W.

You say two contradictory things, that the trade does not exist outside of blizzard's option, and that blizzard's option, as in not the only one is bad.
It cant be both at once.

You COULD buy from 3rd parties before and still CAN now.
You deny that and confirm it in the same post.

[Deleted]

What I did was point out something foolish, claiming that 4 words made an argument.
Why refuse what I have been told should be something you can do easily.

Nothing but an attack on me again.

Because it isn't
My argument has merit.
If yours did, why cant you do what is asked.

What argument? You do not have one, all you do is point out how it has merit, yet you have not had a single argument, just attacks on me.

You keep reverting to single words and wonder why some people can't accept those as a definition of something much larger.
Well that is because they aren't.

There isn't much more to say then a single word when all you do is attack me personally..

"advantage" does despite your insistence otherwise consist of progression in many ways

If we take your definition literally, then "paying to gain an advantage" absolutely does apply to paying another player with gold earned entirely in-game to get a boost.

Except, it does not, you earned that gold by playing the game, not by buying it. As you have said, there are many aspects of the game, so as long as you get the money through playing the game, it is not p2w.

That is why those 4 words are not sufficient.
Define it properly if you have an argument.
Repeated refusal has only one reason behind it.
You can't.

Again, they are more then sufficient, you just cant come over the fact that it is p2w. I have defined it properly, you are the only one who gets stuck on this.

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why is it a problem for you to gather all your scattered parts of your p2w definition in one post so we can discuss it?

I'm not stamping my feet. I keep asking questions you refuse to answer.

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I dont care for answers like that. I know those answers. CAN YOU PLEASE PUT the answers of those question to a p2w sdefinition so we can discuss? This is fragmenting the discussion and the basis we should need to discuss.

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I dont care for answers like that. I know those answers. CAN YOU PLEASE PUT the answers of those questions to a p2w definition, so we can discuss? This is fragmenting the discussion and the basis we should need to discuss.

Example: Pay2Win is when a Player uses real world currency bought from the game company to buy... etc etc.

Your generic definition is too broad and too simplistic. It also allows for misunderstandings and misinterpretations, taking the discussion to other routes.

If you think it's too much work to do it, then please don't answer and leave the thread. Your and MehMeh's short 2 min typed answers are not helpful, but distracting.

If you just argue against what is said instead then you might make a point, stating that you do not care for an answer unless its like you want to have it is not discussing anything it is just trying to derail the discussion.

[ComputerNerd]

Nothing but an attack on me again.



What argument? You do not have one, all you do is point out how it has merit, yet you have not had a single argument, just attacks on me.


There isn't much more to say then a single word when all you do is attack me personally..



Except, it does not, you earned that gold by playing the game, not by buying it. As you have said, there are many aspects of the game, so as long as you get the money through playing the game, it is not p2w.




Again, they are more then sufficient, you just cant come over the fact that it is p2w. I have defined it properly, you are the only one who gets stuck on this.

No attack.
I simply said that 4 words is not enough.
Go make a better argument.
Refusal is proof you don't have one.

To quote Murozond - "to repeat the same actions and expect different results is foolish".
Even he got it right.
You can't fixed a flawed definition by repeating the same one.

Buying a cosmetic is offering an improved collection.
Its an advantage.
Just not in your eyes a problem one.
Therefore that 1 word is not sufficient.

You claim to have defined it properly, but keep refusing to show me that.
You even repeat the same words as if that is supposed to improve what has clearly shown to be lacking.

If you have defined it, put it all together.
Which should be simple if you have actually done that.

Fix the definition.
Put it together.
Define an acceptable advantage, an unacceptable one.
Why those are that.
Define who is being paid and how, because you do "pay" another player gold.
Be it in-game earned or token.
They don't define it differently, and nor does the game.

[Deleted]

No attack.
I simply said that 4 words is not enough.
Go make a better argument.
Refusal is proof you don't have one.

Yea, that is not how it works, it is more then enough as i and many more have pointed out.

To quote Murozond - "to repeat the same actions and expect different results is foolish".
Even he got it right.
You can't fixed a flawed definition by repeating the same one.

See, nothing more but attacking me, where is your definition???

Buying a cosmetic is offering an improved collection.
Its an advantage.
Just not in your eyes a problem one.
Therefore that 1 word is not sufficient

.

A random statement! wow, that is better then attacking me, well not attacking me much. Now i will show you how you can show that something said isn't right. See you fail to point out what advantage you got by having an improved collection. As i can clearly show how you can get an improvement in power through paying cash. So that is why it is sufficient.

You claim to have defined it properly, but keep refusing to show me that.
You even repeat the same words as if that is supposed to improve what has clearly shown to be lacking.

I have, you just do not seem to agree, but you fail to make clear why and start attacking me, not the point i make as is shown again in this little line of text.

If you have defined it, put it all together.
Which should be simple if you have actually done that.

I have, you have failed to address it, you just keep attacking me, just like you did here, again.

Fix the definition.
Put it together.
Define an acceptable advantage, an unacceptable one.
Why those are that.
Define who is being paid and how, because you do "pay" another player gold.
Be it in-game earned or token.
They don't define it differently, and nor does the game.

There is really no need for me to do that, if you want to you have a go at it, but the one i described is perfect. Pay money to get an advantage in game, period.
What you want is proof why blizzard is p2w, not a definition of what is p2w.

[Tharkkun]

That you do not have to pay in order to do mythic content doesn't make it any less p2w. Because, as you can see in the next bit you quoted, the point is that you can buy the gold from blizzard, that is what makes it p2w. The fact that you do not have to play the game normally in order to get into mythic is what makes it p2w.

If blizzard did not sell any gold then the only way to get this gold is by playing the game, so any boost runs bought with gold earned that way isn't p2w. But the moment you can buy gold legally you end up with p2w aspects in the game.

Blizzard provides an avenue to legally purchase gold without using 3rd party websites filled with malware that farmed said gold using bots, scams, etc. That's what they provide.

If you choose to pay gold to get into a Mythic months after it's been cleared (and won) by hundreds of players then you are the big loser. You haven't won a thing to be one of the last to clear an instance for gear that is irrelevant in 6 months or less. That gear won't suddenly enable you to join a Mythic guild and be a highly performing player.

In fact they are laughed at by most of the community because they were a carry. So no, it isn't pay to win.

[Deleted]

Blizzard provides an avenue to legally purchase gold without using 3rd party websites filled with malware that farmed said gold using bots, scams, etc. That's what they provide.

This is what makes it p2w, when 3rd parties where selling gold it was considered cheating and a bannable offense (it still is).

If you choose to pay gold to get into a Mythic months after it's been cleared (and won) by hundreds of players then you are the big loser. You haven't won a thing to be one of the last to clear an instance for gear that is irrelevant in 6 months or less. That gear won't suddenly enable you to join a Mythic guild and be a highly performing player.

In fact they are laughed at by most of the community because they were a carry. So no, it isn't pay to win.

What you or i might think of these people does not make any difference for the p2w part, nor does the skill they might or might not have.

[Deleted]

I dont care for answers like that. I know those answers. CAN YOU PLEASE PUT the answers of those questions to a p2w definition, so we can discuss? This is fragmenting the discussion and the basis we should need to discuss.

Example: Pay2Win is when a Player uses real world currency bought from the game company to buy... etc etc.

The point, which you somehow missed, is that the only party that can be paid legally and in compliance with ToS is the developer/publisher. Therefore it is redundant to explicitly spell it out. But feel free to mentally spell it out when you see the definition: "Pay2win is the ability to buy an in-game advantage with money."

[Deleted]

Here's a picture to tell you whether a game is pay 2 win.