Guild recruiters, please never do this.

[Hablion]

@cocacolawheresthesoda Guilds and Groups usually do this cause people DO NOT READ the rules and it weeds out people who do not bother to have time to read the rules a nd its usually for the better and its usually an automatic decline to join said guild or group. The reason they do not want these people is because if they raid said people will likely not do or not have done any sort of reading for strategy or about their class and thus be the weakest link.

[cocacolawheresthesoda]

No, I meant the guild who did this in their application process. And I don't get the hostility in this thread. Anybody could've overlooked that line. This probably originated from a bunch of people, who thought this was clever and an efficient filtering mechanic. It's really just dumb and unprofessional. This could've only come from the internet. Imagine real job interviewers doing this kind of thing.

I agree.

Do read my other posts on real life recruitment.

Unecessary recruitment questions put off employees too and this gets problematic when you recruit high-end workers, they don't necessarily need you, so they just walk away.

Problem is they weren't even close to high-end, not even hardcore and barely semi-hardcore.

[sonololo]

I guess you should have read the rules.

Some people don't want to raid with bads.

You said "you should have read the rules".

But you failed to read the topic and to understand how that worked out. That string was not in the rules, and is absolutely irrelevant to them.

How ironic. Keep whining about bads, being bad yourself.

[Laerrus]

Look, I understand most people will disagree with me and see this as a good idea, but please, for the love of all that's good, these things show nothing and experienced interviewers, when they want to see certain traits in someone, they employ methologies that have certain hit-points, not just a global one, don't miss on people that are actually good.

I can see your point from the OP.

I just highly doubt that you are going to find a guild that recruits using those methodologies. The vast majority of of WoW players are now those "Joe 6-pack" Blue collar workers.

Why are you filling out an app to get into a casual guild?

We don't, hell, we don't even have a webpage, (seriously who has the time to read all that bullshit). You are either a good fit with us or you aren't

[cocacolawheresthesoda]

@cocacolawheresthesoda Guilds and Groups usually do this cause people DO NOT READ the rules and it weeds out people who do not bother to have time to read the rules a nd its usually for the better and its usually an automatic decline to join said guild or group. The reason they do not want these people is because if they raid said people will likely not do or not have done any sort of reading for strategy or about their class and thus be the weakest link.

Again, that's completely fine to do it.

But as I said, the way they do it is broken and doesn't show anyhting to the recruitment officers.

The way to properly do this, to ensure that people read rules is to have a random line in the middle of the rules "Put 'stanky' in your application, anywhere, so we know you read rules." and leave the app page just as it is.

"not do or not have done any sort of reading for strategy or about their class and thus be the weakest link.". This is erronated and very wrong.

[Deleted]

@cocacolawheresthesoda Guilds and Groups usually do this cause people DO NOT READ the rules and it weeds out people who do not bother to have time to read the rules

But it doesn't. There are people who read the rules, and then miss that one subtle line at the end above the captcha, and then there are people, who don't read the rules, but can easily pretend they did by removing that line at the end. I mean all you need to know is how this practice works. We all now can easily convince these guilds that we read their rules. OP, and everyone else in here as well. Wow, what a well-thought-out system. It's almost like it was invented by a bunch of 13-year-olds pretending to be professionals.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree.

Do read my other posts on real life recruitment.

Unecessary recruitment questions put off employees too and this gets problematic when you recruit high-end workers, they don't necessarily need you, so they just walk away.

Problem is they weren't even close to high-end, not even hardcore and barely semi-hardcore.

Yeah, really weird.

[schwarzkopf]

We never ask these trick questions nor are we trying to be smart.

Wasn't a trick question - that's the point. If a good answer was given, then that was the only prerequisite.

However - when all but one of the candidates makes an assumption, and that assumption degrades their answer .... then it is pretty hard to avoid taking that into account.

In terms of WoW however, Mythic raiding is more akin to Air Traffic Control as a job .. so asking difficult and precise questions seems like a solid idea for applicants for that job.

[Hablion]

Anduin then those people need to read more carefully.

[sonololo]

Well, let's say that's not the player who failed their application, its a guild who failed itself. That'll be OK.

[cocacolawheresthesoda]

I can see your point from the OP.

I just highly doubt that you are going to find a guild that recruits using those methodologies. The vast majority of of WoW players are now those "Joe 6-pack" Blue collar workers.

Why are you filling out an app to get into a casual guild?

We don't, hell, we don't even have a webpage, (seriously who has the time to read all that bullshit). You are either a good fit with us or you aren't

I wasn't going to be as offensive, we're all human and our intellect is a miracle, but I do agree, being able to ask the right questions and to gather meaningfulness from them requires high emotional intelligence, which, let's face it, very few people have.

Frankly, while white collars do work with their brain, they're often not smart about things, but that's another discussion but I would agree, there's a certain unfiness when it comes to people, the majority, who just work on non-thinking stuff, in the sense that they're not needed to comprehend anything above their quota, so they don't, unfortunately, this comprises 85% of the population, judging by wages and overall IQ distribution (which, yes, it does show mental powess and is a strong indicator of success.)

They aren't casual, they're somewhat semi-hardcore and have decent progress in NH M, with some recent kills.

I do agree, a guild's web page, the appliction more so, should be short. Like, most people take their decisions based on numbers and class, if that person really wants in, he'll whisper you, why do you have to make me waste 20 mins on an application just so that perhaps it gets rejected?

Just let me apply, see if you like my play, then we can chat over on Discord or something, to see if we're a fit.

Keep rocking.

[Spacewalrus2010]

@cocacolawheresthesoda Guilds and Groups usually do this cause people DO NOT READ the rules and it weeds out people who do not bother to have time to read the rules a nd its usually for the better and its usually an automatic decline to join said guild or group. The reason they do not want these people is because if they raid said people will likely not do or not have done any sort of reading for strategy or about their class and thus be the weakest link.

Again I ask (because apparently people believe this)...how does a random textbox saying "delete this if you read the rules" in the application process prove you read the rules? Am I missing something here?

I understand the desire to weed people out who don't read the rules. But this does nothing to prove the applicant did, in fact, read the rules.

[Spiral Mage]

Geez. That seems excessively pointless.

I posted the guild rules on the site, and also the guild "mission statement".
The mission statement of course, meant to give you an idea of the goals and mentality we have in the guild.
And naturally, the rules are the rules.

For us, "applying" just meant posting on our forums in the recruitment section.
We ASKED you to read the rules/mission statement. I never checked if you did per say.
I interviewed new members, and would often re-state the attitude/mindset of the guild.

Generally, all we asked was for an armory link (I can do it myself but it's easy for you to do and I can just click) and for a bit of information about you.
Someone would respond to your forum post in about 24 hours and leave further "instructions".
Which was usually: "An officer will contact you in-game", which was 95% of the time, the GM: Me.

If you were accepted, we'd post on your application once more: "Welcome to the guild," so others applying could see that we were clearly paying attention and handling applications in a timely manner, and I felt it made it a good impression in general.

Honestly, there was no circle-jerk or game with us, but then we were anything but your common raiding guild.
I'm a firm believer in keeping this game fun first and foremost, so that left a much different environment.
I only recruited people who could balance fun and serious raiding at once, and removed those who could not.

[cocacolawheresthesoda]

Wasn't a trick question - that's the point. If a good answer was given, then that was the only prerequisite.

However - when all but one of the candidates makes an assumption, and that assumption degrades their answer .... then it is pretty hard to avoid taking that into account.

In terms of WoW however, Mythic raiding is more akin to Air Traffic Control as a job .. so asking difficult and precise questions seems like a solid idea for applicants for that job.

I see, then, in that case, for sure.

Say it was a hard question that most, if any people, wouldn't be able to answer, but if the recruiter wanted to see how the person tackled something difficult, eg, does he go head in, without pseudo-code? What are his initial steps to tackling it and so on, then it's a good method to test out how they'd peform.

Usually, what I'd look for in a programmer is a deeper sense of patience.

Let's face it, you don't have to be nearly as smart as people think to code, but you have to be consistent to be good, in my opinion, the mindset of "I know there's a solution and I know I can get there in a bit of time, let's see what we can do", out of this, results experience.

If someone would show that as soon as they hit something hard, they beat themselves, or feel intimidated, that would score some minuses for me.

Though, for the scope of the thread, I'd say that even if I was wrong about that "check", it still feels way too much for a guild that's not top 100.

[Deleted]

Anduin then those people need to read more carefully.

I assume OP did read the rules. What he didn't read was one line above the captcha that most people will assume to probably be referring to the captcha "Solve this captcha so we know you're not a robot" or something, so you just skim over it and solve the captcha. And now we know we don't have to read the rules. Because we know the trick.

This method is dumb and is at best pointless, and at worst counter-productive.

You know what would be a better method? If the link to the rules referred to something completely different. Like a 404 page or a cooking recipe. And then you'd tell people to read the rules. Then when you ask them later if they read the rules and they say "yes", you know they are lying. If they comment on the missing page, you can give them the link to the real rules. It's still a weird trick that might be completely unnecessary, but at least it works. It weeds out people that flat out lie and haven't even taken a look at the rules.

Also fuck guild rules. Like there's ever anything important in there.

[cocacolawheresthesoda]

I assume OP did read the rules. What he didn't read was one line above the captcha that most people will assume to probably be referring to the captcha "Solve this captcha so we know you're not a robot" or something, so you just skim over it and solve the captcha. And now we know we don't have to read the rules. Because we know the trick.

This method is dumb and is at best pointless, and at worst counter-productive.

You know what would be a better method? If the link to the rules referred to something completely different. Like a 404 page or a cooking recipe. And then you'd tell people to read the rules. Then when you ask them later if they read the rules and they say "yes", you know they are lying. If they comment on the missing page, you can give them the link to the real rules. It's still a weird trick that might be completely unnecessary, but at least it works. It weeds out people that flat out lie and haven't even taken a look at the rules.

Also fuck guild rules. Like there's ever anything important in there.

Precisely what I stated.

I read the rules and I was with the officer on Discord discussing the EXACT RULES.

As said, when they showed it to me, I went back to the app and I didn't even see it at first, then I scrolled down and it was right next to the captcha, as per the screenshot, I just initially assumed it was "Enter this captcha", since it was next to it and in a new box, the only one and it was clearly not a form.

What I said in my replies. Just have a line in the middle with "Say 'sooopa' somewhere in the app, so we know you read the rules". In the middle, with the most important rules at top, so you know they atleast (1) learned something and (2) they read a good chunk of it so they understand what you're about.

Yours also works, it gets exactly to the problem at hand.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Looks like they also missed out on some one who cries publicly when he feels slighted. Seems like the process worked!

[Deleted]

Precisely what I stated.

I read the rules and I was with the officer on Discord discussing the EXACT RULES.

As said, when they showed it to me, I went back to the app and I didn't even see it at first, then I scrolled down and it was right next to the captcha, as per the screenshot, I just initially assumed it was "Enter this captcha", since it was next to it and in a new box, the only one and it was clearly not a form.

What I said in my replies. Just have a line in the middle with "Say 'sooopa' somewhere in the app, so we know you read the rules". In the middle, with the most important rules at top, so you know they atleast (1) learned something and (2) they read a good chunk of it so they understand what you're about.

Yours also works, it gets exactly to the problem at hand.

Yeah, I totally get you. This is just some weird shit. Probably best you avoided that guild now.

[Relapses]

Have you read your own post? What you're saying is, if it's a decent application and they failed the test, you give them a chance anyway, but if it's a bad application and they failed the test, you give them a pass. Do you not see what is wrong with this? Basicly, what decides is whether the application was decent or not. If they fail the test at the end, or not, has absolutely no relevance, because you would take them anyway if they failed. Way to show why this is completely redundant.

Also, this is in no way a "retard check". There's a logical end to a text and if I saw a text, that had that line attached at the end, I could easily see someone overlooking that one line. That is not proof as to whether they have read the text or not, neither does it mean the person is a retard. Jesus, elitist guilds are so dumb.

Telling an app they're fucking terrible is more offensive (and more importantly, time consuming) than simply ignoring them. It was an easy loophole to filter out the idiots who didn't bother to read the shit we told them would be a part of the application. I'm sorry you are so hung up on the rights of people who don't bother to read that you want to rage against what you perceive as elitism. It was really a passive-aggressive way to avoid having to interact with awful players.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[cocacolawheresthesoda]

Telling an app they're fucking terrible is more offensive than simply ignoring them. It was an easy loophole to filter out the idiots who didn't bother to read the shit we told them would be a part of the application. I'm sorry you are so hung up on the rights of people who don't bother to read that you want to rage against what you perceive as elitism. It was really a passive-aggressive way to ignore having to interact with awful players.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I understand your point and can see the reasoning, but I just can't agree to it.

If you did exactly what this guild I spoke of did, this method doesn't show you at all that they didn't read the shit you told them to read. AT ALL.

If you did care about people reading it, you would've understood how flawed this is and did what I said,t hat is to have something on the rules page that's unique and ask them there, when they make the app, to tell you about it.

This is not elitism to make sure people read rules. It's an okay requirement, I mean, you have to know how guilds operate, if you're serious.

I blasted the officers' asses 'cause they thought they were smart and that this actually did something.

For me and I believe many others who saw it and had half-brain, they lost all the credibility, about their management. It's better to just say "We think you're not a fit." than to trick people like this, it's just low. If they engage in a discussion, ignore them.

[Relapses]

I understand your point and can see the reasoning, but I just can't agree to it.

If you did exactly what this guild I spoke of did, this method doesn't show you at all that they didn't read the shit you told them to read. AT ALL.

If you did care about people reading it, you would've understood how flawed this is and did what I said,t hat is to have something on the rules page that's unique and ask them there, when they make the app, to tell you about it.

This is not elitism to make sure people read rules. It's an okay requirement, I mean, you have to know how guilds operate, if you're serious.

I blasted the officers' asses 'cause they thought they were smart and that this actually did something.

For me and I believe many others who saw it and had half-brain, they lost all the credibility, about their management. It's better to just say "We think you're not a fit." than to trick people like this, it's just low. If they engage in a discussion, ignore them.

What you're describing is likely far more rare than what the guild I was in did. I know some guilds still do something similar but if it's a guild worth its salt they'll at least mention it somewhere either in the guild charter or in the application itself. (For example, the guild charter would say, "If you've read this, the special key word is banana and this is on the application.") What you're upset about is something far less common (and hell, might even specific to this one guild) so it doesn't make much sense (to me) for you to be so invested in what happened.