Tinkers In Our Future?

[Dangg]

However, the 'tinker' class and the engineer profession, in the lore, are one and the same. That is the main issue.

Someone playing WoW for 12 years might have noticed that conventions - because they can be changed any time - are no 'issues' for Blizzard which keeps them introducing features if they really want to.

[Aleksej89]

Engineering profession is like a hobby, it does not define your CLASS.
You use gadgets to help you out as an Engineer - you do not use it as a complete replacement for all the combat stuff you do.

A warrior engineer still always uses his axe, and a mage engineer still uses magic for all the combat.
A tinker EXCLUSIVELY uses technology as his combat style.

There are many Tinker NPCs already in game.
Bosses, quest givers, neutral NPCs, enemies...

They have been shown to use all manner of technology and inventions - from dynamites to robotic suits and galactic teleporters.
Tinkers and engineers have been a big part of Warcraft since the first catapult, ship and zeppelin... and now legion has starships just like in star trek/wars.

[Ielenia]

Certainly, and it could very well happen. However all the evidence points to the fact that it hasn't happened yet,

... It doesn't matter that it hasn't happened yet. What matters is that it can.

and based on your belief that Humans have been engaging in heavy engineering since Vanilla

... You're again making strawman out of my arguments. I have never, once, said that. All I'm saying is that: a) they could, if they wanted to; and b) there is nothing that impedes that from happening.

We had evidence of Pandaria's existence in WoW before Pandaria:
http://www.wowhead.com/quest=819/chens-empty-keg
http://wow.gamepedia.com/Justin
http://www.wowhead.com/item=49665/pandaren-monk

By following your logic, none of those links do anything. The only thing they do is mention the Pandaren race. At no point Pandaria is ever mentioned, even by passing. It doesn't say if it's a city, or a zone, or an isle, or a continent, etc.

As for the Nightborne, Blizzard just made them up for Legion. So yeah, they didn't exist until Blizzard created them, just like humans who can build machines on the level of Gnomes and Goblins doesn't exist until Blizzard creates them.

Except we do have engineers of all races, and you cannot state as fact that they're incapable of being at the level of gnomes in terms of engineering.

Again, we have evidence. The problem here is that you don't accept the evidence as actual evidence because it destroys your argument.

No, we don't. All you have is absence of evidence, and, like we already established: absence of evidence is not evidence.

I'll say it again, Gnomeregan doesn't serve the same purpose as Stormwind, Thunder Bluff, Silvermoon, or other racial capitals, so obviously its not going to have all the features of those locations.

You'd have a point if Gilneas city didn't look like a normal city.

In the end though, we have evidence of Goblin and Gnome mages in lore, and those mages effect the lore, so not seeing Mage wards in Goblin and Gnome outposts is a moot point.

It's not a moot point because those goblin and gnome mages were added after the fact. After gnome and goblin mages were implemented. Just like you can't point at Zen'kiki as an example of troll druid in the lore because he was added after the fact.

Perhaps we should give these races a cool class to maybe TRY to make those races more popular?

Except what makes those races unpopular is, by and large, the fact they're silly looking, have silly voices, and all around were designed with silliness at the forefront, if the myriad of jokes at their expense, especially gnomes, that existed throughout the years are anything to go by. Giving them a "cool class" won't help them in any substantial way that would validate the idea of restricting the class to those two races only. Like I said: those two races' unpopularity is much, much more likely to hurt the new class, than the new class' popularity could help those two races.

Where did I say that Alchemists, Engineers, and Apothecaries didn't exist?

I swear you seem to get lost in your own stories. I never claimed they "didn't exist". I simply offered that as a counter-example of the professions "having an effect on the lore".

Like i said before, a Forsaken engineer building a chemical wagon is perfectly fine. That is supported by lore, and there's plenty of evidence to support it. A forsaken engineer isn't building robots, lasers, teleportation devices, pilotable mechs, and whatever new schematic is coming out of the engineering profession for the PLAYER to utilize.

Again: absence of evidence is not evidence. Just because you can't see something, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, especially when the game is chock-full of examples that shoot down that claim of yours.

- - - Updated - - -

Someone playing WoW for 12 years might have noticed that conventions - because they can be changed any time - are no 'issues' for Blizzard which keeps them introducing features if they really want to.

You're implying that Blizzard removes stuff with the game without even giving it a second thought, and that I doubt that is the case. I can't imagine that they make changes 'on a whim', especially changes like that.

[Teriz]

... It doesn't matter that it hasn't happened yet. What matters is that it can.

Yes, and Blizzard could make a class of heroes that shoot hamburgers at people, and their class leader can destroy a city by dropping a massive hamburger on it. Just because it can happen doesn't make it lore.

... You're again making strawman out of my arguments. I have never, once, said that. All I'm saying is that: a) they could, if they wanted to; and b) there is nothing that impedes that from happening.

It being a possibility doesn't make it lore.

By following your logic, none of those links do anything. The only thing they do is mention the Pandaren race. At no point Pandaria is ever mentioned, even by passing. It doesn't say if it's a city, or a zone, or an isle, or a continent, etc.

It doesn't need to be. If Chen Stormstout exists in WoW, that means that Pandaria exists in WoW.

Except we do have engineers of all races, and you cannot state as fact that they're incapable of being at the level of gnomes in terms of engineering.

I can because their technology exists, and it is clearly below that of Gnomes and Goblins.

]No, we don't. All you have is absence of evidence, and, like we already established: absence of evidence is not evidence.

And here we go again... The evidence doesn't cease to exist simply because you don't accept it as evidence.

It's not a moot point because those goblin and gnome mages were added after the fact. After gnome and goblin mages were implemented. Just like you can't point at Zen'kiki as an example of troll druid in the lore because he was added after the fact.

Well that proves my point; When Blizzard implements something based on lore, it is reflected in lore. So when Goblin and Gnome mages appeared in the game, lore characters from that class also appeared in the game.

There has yet to be a non-Goblin/Gnome Engineer in lore producing and utilizing advanced mechanical technology. The Engineering profession has been in the game since launch.

I swear you seem to get lost in your own stories. I never claimed they "didn't exist".

Nor did I.

Again: absence of evidence is not evidence. Just because you can't see something, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, especially when the game is chock-full of examples that shoot down that claim of yours.

Oh I see something; I see Tauren building bows and arrows, Orcs building wooden catapults, Forsaken building chemical wagons drawn by horses, humans relying on Dwarven and Gnomish tech, etc., just like how it was when the series began. The ONLY races that are advancing their technology are the Goblins and Gnomes.

I would love to see some counter examples that support your argument to the contrary, but I have a feeling you have nothing to show.

[-Joker-]

Engineering profession is like a hobby, it does not define your CLASS.
You use gadgets to help you out as an Engineer - you do not use it as a complete replacement for all the combat stuff you do.

A warrior engineer still always uses his axe, and a mage engineer still uses magic for all the combat.
A tinker EXCLUSIVELY uses technology as his combat style.

An important distinction... one lost on many who oppose tinkers.

[Ielenia]

Yes, and Blizzard could make a class of heroes that shoot hamburgers at people

Now you're being ridiculous just for mockery's sake.

It being a possibility doesn't make it lore.

Just like not seeing them build a mech doesn't make it lore that they're unable to make build mechs.

It doesn't need to be. If Chen Stormstout exists in WoW, that means that Pandaria exists in WoW.

Nope. One doesn't necessarily imply the other. The Pandaren could have come from a completely different place. I mean, it's not like human come from Humanaria, or orcs come from Orcaria or something like that. Besides, even if we assume what you said is true: what was Pandaria before MoP? A city? A zone? A continent? An island? The name of Chen Stormstout's clan?

I can because their technology exists, and it is clearly below that of Gnomes and Goblins.

No, you can't, because there is no evidence. Can you show me me a flavor text or quest text of a non-goblin, non-gnome NPC saying their race as a whole are mentally incapable of building a mech? Or a developer post or tweet saying so? If you can't, then you cannot prove your case. Because, so far, all you have is conjecture with not a single bit of evidence to back it up. And again, because you keep ignoring this fact: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

And here we go again... The evidence doesn't cease to exist simply because you don't accept it as evidence.

It's not evidence. You're ignoring basic logic and common sense!

Well that proves my point; When Blizzard implements something based on lore, it is reflected in lore. So when Goblin and Gnome mages appeared in the game, lore characters from that class also appeared in the game.

There has yet to be a non-Goblin/Gnome Engineer in lore producing and utilizing advanced mechanical technology. The Engineering profession has been in the game since launch.

Now you're adding "double-standards" to your list of fallacies, man? Spellcasting existed in the lore since the universe's inception, and there were no goblin/gnome spellcaster for ten years.

Nor did I.

You implied that professions had no effect in the lore, and I proved you wrong.

Oh I see something </snip>

Two facts you keep ignoring: one, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence; and two, it matters little (if any) if race 'A' is more technologically advanced than race 'B', because we're talking about individuals! I mean, we have gnome mages, when their entire race is 100% dedicated to technology!

- - - Updated - - -

An important distinction... one lost on many who oppose tinkers.

Which becomes moot and pointless when one realizes it's a distinction based solely on gameplay, not lore.

[-Joker-]

Which becomes moot and pointless when one realizes it's a distinction based solely on gameplay, not lore.

Lore? You mean like how we have Forsaken Holy Priests? Or maybe how the hypocritical Night Elves started using Arcane magic again after 10k years? Or Draenei Shadow Priests? Perhaps Undead Death Knights? Maybe Sir Zeilick the Forsaken Paladin? Or the Draenei Rogue working for SI:7 who helps us in Pandaria and Draenor?

To which specific Lore are you referring?

Personally, I find Lore can be altered just as soon as Blizz puts pen to paper and writes it. Also, Goblin Tinkers in WC3 are just as believable as Pandaren Monks... also in WC3.

[Dangg]

You're implying that Blizzard removes stuff with the game without even giving it a second thought, and that I doubt that is the case. I can't imagine that they make changes 'on a whim', especially changes like that..

I'm implying Blizzard removes or changes stuff in the game, not that they don't give it a second thought.


Tinker aside OT: Would an overall profession rework be outrageously shocking to anyone?

[Ielenia]

Lore? You mean like how we have Forsaken Holy Priests?

It's simply a gameplay concession as it would make no gameplay sense to restrict a 3-spec class to a single spec for that race only.

Or maybe how the hypocritical Night Elves started using Arcane magic again after 10k years?

So you're saying people can't learn the error of their ways?

Or Draenei Shadow Priests?

Same as forsaken.

Perhaps Undead Death Knights?

What about them?

Maybe Sir Zeilick the Forsaken Paladin?

He's a death knight who managed to retain his mind and morals, but his body is used to fight against his will.

Or the Draenei Rogue working for SI:7 who helps us in Pandaria and Draenor?

Mishka is not a rogue. She's a SI:7 field medic agent.

Personally, I find Lore can be altered just as soon as Blizz puts pen to paper and writes it. Also, Goblin Tinkers in WC3 are just as believable as Pandaren Monks... also in WC3.

The Goblin Tinker existed solely on multiplayer and skirmish maps, hence, not canon. And so was the Pandaren Brewmaster's situation until the canon 'Founding of Durotar' campaign maps were added and Chen Stormstout was created.

- - - Updated - - -

Tinker aside OT: Would an overall profession rework be outrageously shocking to anyone?

Remember the outrage when Blizzard started nerfing professions, with engineer being the most affected one as most of their items had their powers reduced and/or restricted, and some even removed? I'd say yes, it would be shocking to a portion of the playerbase.

[-Joker-]

It's simply a gameplay concession as it would make no gameplay sense to restrict a 3-spec class to a single spec for that race only.

So you're saying people can't learn the error of their ways?

Same as forsaken.

What about them?

He's a death knight who managed to retain his mind and morals, but his body is used to fight against his will.

Mishka is not a rogue. She's a SI:7 field medic agent.

The Goblin Tinker existed solely on multiplayer and skirmish maps, hence, not canon. And so was the Pandaren Brewmaster's situation until the canon 'Founding of Durotar' campaign maps were added and Chen Stormstout was created.

It is possible to reply to someone without breaking it out line by line. Oh, and that SI:7 "field medic" can dual wield and stealth.

[Ielenia]

It is possible to reply to someone

Possible? Yes.

without breaking it out line by line.

Makes it easier to reply to each point directly instead of making one big paragraph.

Oh,

Yes?

and that SI:7 "field medic"

Her name is Mishka.

can dual wield and stealth.

So she might be a rogue. So what?

On a more serious note, regarding "lore", as far as I can tell, there is nothing explicitly written in the lore that states Draenei can't be rogues. People just assumed it was because having hooves would make stealth a bit difficult, but then again we have Draenei hunters who can 'camouflage' without a hitch, so... that's a question you should level at Blizzard, not me.

[-Joker-]

so... that's a question you should level at Blizzard, not me.

My only question for Blizz is which expac are we getting Tinkers. We already have Pandas and Demon Hunters (both highly requested).

[Kiradyn]

Lore arguments are a waste of time. If Blizzard wants Tinkers in the game, they will be in the game regardless of what it overlaps with, or what's in the game currently. The introduction of Demon Hunters should have taught us that Blizzard does what ever it wants when they want to do it.

[Ielenia]

My only question for Blizz is which expac are we getting Tinkers. We already have Pandas and Demon Hunters (both highly requested).

I don't think Blizzard adds races and classes according to the demands of the players. I imagine they add what they believe fits the theme of the expansion they're designing.

[Darktbs]

The Goblin Tinker existed solely on multiplayer and skirmish maps, hence, not canon. And so was the Pandaren Brewmaster's situation until the canon 'Founding of Durotar' campaign maps were added and Chen Stormstout was created.

Ok, now i call BS.





When such thing became a issue when design something in wow.

[Ielenia]

Ok, now i call BS.

Why? What exactly are you disputing? The fact the WC3 Goblin Tinker is not canon?

[-Joker-]

I don't think Blizzard adds races and classes according to the demands of the players. I imagine they add what they believe fits the theme of the expansion they're designing.

I don't see the connection between a deadly dragon (Deathwing) breaking the world, and discovering Pandas. Not much makes sense from Expac to Expac. Blizz just has its own whimsical musings.

[Darktbs]

Why? What exactly are you disputing? The fact the WC3 Goblin Tinker is not canon?

Like you said in a earlier post, just because we don't see them doesn't me they don't exist.There may not be big name Tinkers in Wc3 but does that mean they don't exist?The Neutral Heroes are simply Heroes that are not tied to any of the 4 armies available in wc3, all of those Heroes are Cannon, some just lack a major character to represent them.

Its like you're saying Gnomes weren't cannon despite the wc2 units Gnomish Flying machine and Submarine.


And if you consider your argument.

We shouldn't have Rogues, since there aren't any rogues in Wc3 so they are not cannon.

[Thimagryn]

I don't think Blizzard adds races and classes according to the demands of the players. I imagine they add what they believe fits the theme of the expansion they're designing.

They totally do, because they know what fans want and what sells. It's only a matter of possibilities whether it's feasible or not to go that route. An entire expansion pack around Pandarens is proof of how far they are willing to take their IP just for the sake of an April Fools joke that was never made canon.

The Tinker is the in that exact same boat.

[SirCowdog]

They totally do, because they know what fans want and what sells. It's only a matter of possibilities whether it's feasible or not to go that route. An entire expansion pack around Pandarens is proof of how far they are willing to take their IP just for the sake of an April Fools joke that was never made canon.

The Tinker is the in that exact same boat.

Very much agree. But what bugs me is how much new classes always fit the overall theme of the entire expansion. I'm having trouble fitting a Tinker/Engineer/whatever into an entire expansion's theme. Especially when the most likely next step is for us to battle the old gods. All that c'thulu style madness and darkness just doesn't fit the wacky tinker theme much.