Tinkers In Our Future?

[Ielenia]

Yes, and if you actually read the "book" it says that Mages can both enchant and disenchant via their class abilities, since it says plainly that Enchanting allows you to enchant an object as well as a person. The Mage's armor and bomb spells count as enchantments, and Remove Curse and Spell Steal are examples of disenchantment.

You do know the difference between knowing a bit about a certain school of magic, and being a master of it? It's safe to assume mages learn a bit of every school during mage training, but like the book says, they only opt to specialize in one, maybe two. Considering the profession's skill with the enchanting school of magic is more versatile than the average mage's skill with it, I think it's safe to assume that 'enchanters' are those who specialize in the enchanting school of magic, while the other mages (including player mages) don't.

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We have proof of it IN GAME. In the opening sequence of the DK class, you are asked to take a rusty sword from a stand, and manipulate it into a fierce weapon of destruction. Ultimately disenchanting the existing steel and reshaping it as a Runeblade.

You don't disenchant weapons as a Death Knight. The weapon's original magic is unaffected. Lore-wise, you simply engrave runes upon the blade, from which you use to power your abilities (lore-wise, it seems a DK cannot use their abilities without it).

And you are correct... Runeforging interferes in no way with the Enchanting profession.

Probably because they're not the same thing, and are barely (if at all) related?

[Teriz]

You do know the difference between knowing a bit about a certain school of magic, and being a master of it? It's safe to assume mages learn a bit of every school during mage training, but like the book says, they only opt to specialize in one, maybe two. Considering the profession's skill with the enchanting school of magic is more versatile than the average mage's skill with it, I think it's safe to assume that 'enchanters' are those who specialize in the enchanting school of magic, while the other mages (including player mages) don't.

My main point is that Mages can Enchant and Disenchant, yet for gameplay reasons can't perform all the abilities of the Enchanting profession. It would be no different than a Tinker not being able to build goggles gameplay-wise, but goggle-building being clearly far below their abilities lore-wise.

[Edlarel]

The difference is enchanting and what mages do could be different kinds of magic, engineering and tinkering are literally synonyms.

Mages can't use shadow magic, or necromancy, or fel magic. I'm not sure what the reasoning would be for a paragon of Tinkering not being able to use a pair of engineering goggles.

2 potential arguments here: 1) A mac technician knows nothing of how to repair an HP computer or how to run Linux without additional training. Different programs entirely. To keep it in world, goblin engineers don't have all the same schematics as gnomish engineers.

2) The Nerds argument, where they're so smart they forget the simple things (in the movie, they're completing a complex calculation, but stumble at 2+2 = 4 or something like that).

I'm more with the #1 option here. Engineering and Tinkering are "I'm a Mac. I'm a PC." In fact, Blizzard could even make a commercial out of it comparing the two.

[Ielenia]

My main point is that Mages can Enchant and Disenchant, yet for gameplay reasons can't perform all the abilities of the Enchanting profession.

And your point is moot because it is never stated anywhere that all mages can do everything enchanters do. There is a thing called specializing in a given arcane school or two, as pointed out in the in-game books, so it's a safe bet to assume non-enchanters specialize in other schools, while enchanters obviously specialize in the enchanting school. That doesn't mean that, by specializing in one arcane school, they must somehow forgo all knowledge of other schools, which is why player mages know some weak enchanting skills, only able to temporarily enchant others, cannot enchant items, and their disenchant spell is nowhere near as powerful as the one enchanters know.

It would be no different than a Tinker not being able to build goggles gameplay-wise, but goggle-building being clearly far below their abilities lore-wise.

Except engineering, unlike magic, is not divided into several "schools". There is only one school: engineering. And I'm also amused how you say the engineering goggles are "low-tech", as if they're just two round discs of glass held together by a wire frame. They're more than that. They're actually high-tech items.

[Teriz]

2 potential arguments here: 1) A mac technician knows nothing of how to repair an HP computer or how to run Linux without additional training. Different programs entirely. To keep it in world, goblin engineers don't have all the same schematics as gnomish engineers.

2) The Nerds argument, where they're so smart they forget the simple things (in the movie, they're completing a complex calculation, but stumble at 2+2 = 4 or something like that).

I'm more with the #1 option here. Engineering and Tinkering are "I'm a Mac. I'm a PC." In fact, Blizzard could even make a commercial out of it comparing the two.

LoL! Yeah that's pretty good.

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And your point is moot because it is never stated anywhere that all mages can do everything enchanters do. There is a thing called specializing in a given arcane school or two, as pointed out in the in-game books, so it's a safe bet to assume non-enchanters specialize in other schools, while enchanters obviously specialize in the enchanting school. That doesn't mean that, by specializing in one arcane school, they must somehow forgo all knowledge of other schools, which is why player mages know some weak enchanting skills, only able to temporarily enchant others, cannot enchant items, and their disenchant spell is nowhere near as powerful as the one enchanters know.

So you're saying that a Warrior with zero affinity towards magic can become better at enchanting than a max level Mage who can perform arcane supernovas and teleport through time and space?

Again, they're only divided the way because of gameplay.

Except engineering, unlike magic, is not divided into several "schools". There is only one school: engineering. And I'm also amused how you say the engineering goggles are "low-tech", as if they're just two round discs of glass held together by a wire frame. They're more than that. They're actually high-tech items.

Engineering is a catch-all term, just like Magic. Some engineers specialize in robotics like Mekkatorque and Blackfuse, while others specialize in explosives and demolition like Laz Madwire or Speegle Blasttorch. Then we have Gazlowe who specializes in civic and structural engineering, just like the Gnomes (and Dwarves) that designed the underground train system in Stormwind, and the Skybraker airship. Still others like Millie Watt use energy weapons via multiple ray guns.

Beyond that there's the highly advanced forms of engineering, such as Titan, Legion, and Naaru technology.

Kind of silly to believe that there is only one school of engineering. Of course, I'm forgetting who I'm talking to.

[Ielenia]

My main point is that Mages can Enchant and Disenchant, yet for gameplay reasons can't perform all the abilities of the Enchanting profession.

And what you got is nothing but headcanon, considering that your headcanon goes directly against what is written in the in-game books. Mages specialize in just one or two fields. To say that all mages can enchant and disenchant like masters of enchanting is absurd, and not only not supported by lore, but also debunked by lore.

[Teriz]

And what you got is nothing but headcanon, considering that your headcanon goes directly against what is written in the in-game books. Mages specialize in just one or two fields. To say that all mages can enchant and disenchant like masters of enchanting is absurd, and not only not supported by lore, but also debunked by lore.

Except for the fact that every mage has advanced enchanting and disenchant spells in their ability list.....

[Ielenia]

Except for the fact that every mage has advanced enchanting and disenchant spells in their ability list.....

... "Advanced"? Really? Pray tell, what are those abilities?

[Farrarie]

would be cool like first weapons who use goblin rocket etc
tinker is a very cool class indead

[Teriz]

... "Advanced"? Really? Pray tell, what are those abilities?

Living Bomb, Nether Bomb, Frost Bomb, Frost Armor, Molten Armor, Prismatic Barrier, Remove curse, Spell Steal, Focus Magic, etc.

[Ielenia]

Living Bomb, Nether Bomb, Frost Bomb, Frost Armor, Molten Armor, Prismatic Barrier, Remove curse, Spell Steal, Focus Magic, etc.

I'd hardly call them "advanced", considering they're all temporary. Also, 'Frost bomb', according to its description, is not exactly an enchantment, but more like conjuring an item on the target. Spellsteal doesn't look like an enchantment spell since all it does is steal an already existing enchantment.

Either way, though, masters of the enchanting profession can permanently remove magic and even permanently imbue powerful magics.

And nether bomb does not exist for mages. I imagine you mean 'nether tempest', but that's the same thing as 'frost bomb'.

In the end, though, you cannot state that all mages are "masters of the arcane schools of magic" since nowhere in the lore something like that is ever said. Not only that, but in-game lore even states that mages usually choose to master one, maybe two schools, of the eight available, implying that to master a school of magic is not easy.

[Teriz]

I'd hardly call them "advanced", considering they're all temporary. Also, 'Frost bomb', according to its description, is not exactly an enchantment, but more like conjuring an item on the target. Spellsteal doesn't look like an enchantment spell since all it does is steal an already existing enchantment.

Spell Steal is a combination of Enchantment and Disenchantment because you remove the enchantment from your target and you enchant yourself.

I would say that they're temporary because performing Living Bomb is more difficult than Sunfire and quite a bit more unstable.

Either way, though, masters of the enchanting profession can permanently remove magic and even permanently imbue powerful magics.

Well yeah, because its far simpler to imbue a sword than it is to imbue a living, moving target.

Shaman can also remove magic via Purge, but I would argue that Mages are stronger than Shaman in the magic department.

In the end, though, you cannot state that all mages are "masters of the arcane schools of magic" since nowhere in the lore something like that is ever said. Not only that, but in-game lore even states that mages usually choose to master one, maybe two schools, of the eight available, implying that to master a school of magic is not easy.

All mages are masters of arcane compared to a Warrior or Rogue with a high level of Enchanting.

[Ielenia]

Spell Steal is a combination of Enchantment and Disenchantment because you remove the enchantment from your target and you enchant yourself.

"Disenchantment" destroys the enchantment, and that's not what happens.

I would say that they're temporary because performing Living Bomb is more difficult than Sunfire and quite a bit more unstable.

"Unstable", eh? Thanks for making my point further.

Well yeah, because its far simpler to imbue a sword than it is to imbue a living, moving target.

Citation needed.

Shaman can also remove magic via Purge, but I would argue that Mages are stronger than Shaman in the magic department.

Are they? How can you tell? How do you know one is stronger than the other? I mean, sure, mages are much better at casting arcane spells than the shamans, who can cast no arcane spells, so they "win" by default, but, on the same token, shamans are much better tat casting elemental magic than the mages, who can cast no elemental (i.e. from the Elemental planes) magic, so, yeah, they "win" by default.

All mages are masters of arcane compared to a Warrior or Rogue with a high level of Enchanting.

You're using gameplay to justify a lore claim. Because I believe 'enchanting' is only available to all classes because it'd be unfair to restrict 'enchanting' to just mages when all other professions are available to everyone.

[Teriz]

"Disenchantment" destroys the enchantment, and that's not what happens.

It destroys the enchantment on the target, and enchants the Mage.

Of course there's also remove curse, which is also a disenchant spell.

"Unstable", eh? Thanks for making my point further.

Unstable because you're imbuing a living object. With that said, Living Bomb and/or Prismatic Barrier is quite a bit more powerful than anything out of the Enchanting profession. Indicating that yes, Mages are quite proficient at Enchanting/Disenchanting.

Are they? How can you tell? How do you know one is stronger than the other? I mean, sure, mages are much better at casting arcane spells than the shamans, who can cast no arcane spells, so they "win" by default, but, on the same token, shamans are much better tat casting elemental magic than the mages, who can cast no elemental (i.e. from the Elemental planes) magic, so, yeah, they "win" by default.

Medihv and Khadger say hello.

You're using gameplay to justify a lore claim. Because I believe 'enchanting' is only available to all classes because it'd be unfair to restrict 'enchanting' to just mages when all other professions are available to everyone.

So you're saying that via Lore a Warrior can match a Mage in the school of Arcane magic?


The point of all of this btw is just to illustrate how a Tinker wouldn't need to be proficient in engineering to perform their class. Just like a Mage doesn't need points in Enchantment to perform Enchantments and Disenchantments within their class.

[Ielenia]

It destroys the enchantment on the target, and enchants the Mage.

Magic transfer is not the same thing.

Of course there's also remove curse, which is also a disenchant spell.

Which doesn't exist anymore.

Unstable because you're imbuing a living object.

Citation needed. And considering this is the basis of your argument, citation is really needed.

Medihv and Khadger say hello.

I'd love to find out instances where they manipulate magic from the elemental planes, on their own, without using special trinkets that give them access to those planes.

The point of all of this btw is just to illustrate how a Tinker wouldn't need to be proficient in engineering to perform their class.

Yes, they don't need to know about robots to build robots. They don't know about explosives and bombs to build rockets. They don't need to know anything about technology to build technological wonders!

[Kagdar]

Yes, they don't need to know about robots to build robots. They don't know about explosives and bombs to build rockets. They don't need to know anything about technology to build technological wonders!

They don't need to be able to build tech to be able to use tech.

Rename Tinkers and call them Fighter Pilot of you want, they can be a thing completely different than Engineers.

[Teriz]

Yes, they don't need to know about robots to build robots. They don't know about explosives and bombs to build rockets. They don't need to know anything about technology to build technological wonders!

If you're an engineering/mechanical genius, no, you don't need to know the engineering profession to understand those things. You just innately know those things.

[Ielenia]

If you're an engineering/mechanical genius, no, you don't need to know the engineering profession to understand those things. You just innately know those things.

"If you're an engineering genius you don't need to know engineering". Genius.
"You don't need to know engineering because you are born already knowing everything about technology". Even more genius.

How does such nonsense come so easily to you, Teriz? No one "already knows" stuff before even learning about said stuff. That's like saying you can be an ace jet pilot without ever taking any lessons about piloting jets at all or even knowing the first thing about airplanes... or even piloting a jet for the first time.

[Teriz]

"If you're an engineering genius you don't need to know engineering". Genius.
"You don't need to know engineering because you are born already knowing everything about technology". Even more genius.

How does such nonsense come so easily to you, Teriz? No one "already knows" stuff before even learning about said stuff. That's like saying you can be an ace jet pilot without ever taking any lessons about piloting jets at all or even knowing the first thing about airplanes... or even piloting a jet for the first time.

Well look at WoW; Mages, Priests, Shaman and Warlocks know spells before they ever go to a trainer. Monks know Tiger Palm before they meet their trainer. Every class at least knows one skill from the very beginning of the game.

Why is it a problem for a Goblin or Gnome to start the game already knowing an engineering ability?

[Edlarel]

I feel like this reasoning got swept aside because there was no logical counter to it.

Engineers are to Tinkers as Mac is to PC. There you go. To the layman, they're both computers with very similar functions and can achieve a lot of the same goals, but each requires its own education/training separate from the other. Now, since somebody who knows how to build a mac could more quickly learn to build a PC, give the tinker class an innate bonus of some kind (like +5) if they also take the engineering profession. Or, allow them to use engineering equipment without the profession as a requirement.

All this talk of mages and enchanting is fun, but ultimately off topic given both of those already exist in game anyway, with lore and mechanics both well established.