Stormblood MSQ Discussion (THERE ARE SPOILERS IN HERE)

[lawow74]

If you say so... Thoridan was nothing but "100 years of faith absorbed power, I'mma be a god now." There wasn't anything more to HIM. Everything interesting is tied around Shiva, Hraesvaelgr, and Nidhogg. Much like Stormblood has more shining characters apart from the first straightforward endboss.

Thordan was supported by a LOT more lore. The struggles of Ishgard against the dragons was set up long before HW with all the stuff going on in Coerthas, the story of the original King Thordan laid out and documented, and the secrets behind the origins of the war explained in detail. A thousand years of war culminating in using the very thing that kicked off such struggle to try and end it, summoning a primal in his image to end the conflict.

Zenos? 'Rawr skurry dragon so I can has the feels'.

No comparison, IMO.

[Faroth]

You're taking a hell of a lot that wasn't directly linked to Thoridan and giving him character development credit for it while disregarding everything Zenos did have, but okay.

[lawow74]

You're taking a hell of a lot that wasn't directly linked to Thoridan and giving him character development credit for it while disregarding everything Zenos did have, but okay.

But you see, it's not about how a character changes over time for me, it's about context. And Zenos' context is shit compared to Thordan. That's what I'm getting at. There's a lot to support why Thordan happened. Zenos is wet tissue paper by comparison, that's why people didn't complain about fighting the Lich Pope, whereas the Bitch King comes off as 'lol reasons'.

[Katchii]

*shrug*
Still feel like people are dismissing a lot of the cut scenes as if they didn't exist rather than they personally just want far far more. I'm fine with him, he was developed plenty for what was needed.

He's more akin to Thoridan in terms of presence, who was way more straightforward and bland to me. It's clear this expansion is going to be more heavily about something else over patch cycle.

Seriously, where WAS all this complaining during Heavensward? I never saw anyone gripe about Thoridan's straightforward goals and lack of any character development. O_o

Thordan to me just felt like the embodiment all of the fanatical, hypocritical, zealotry that was Ishgard and that was well established through the MSQ. I didn't look at him as a singular character and more as a symbol of all that was wrong with Ishgard. Kind of similar to Palpatine in Return of the Jedi: as a character he was incredibly shallow, but what he represented was very clearly established throughout the movies (Episodes IV - VI) so because the Empire was bad/ evil and corrupt and he was the Emperor...he was therefore bad, evil and corrupt and you didn't really need to understand more. He was essentially just a proxy.

[Deleted]

But you see, it's not about how a character changes over time for me, it's about context. And Zenos' context is shit compared to Thordan. That's what I'm getting at. There's a lot to support why Thordan happened. Zenos is wet tissue paper by comparison, that's why people didn't complain about fighting the Lich Pope, whereas the Bitch King comes off as 'lol reasons'.

what...?
How is the Thordan fight any less "lol reasons".

We basically fought Thordan because we can't have someone else be stronger than us - or something.

Dunno, they are so much alike -it's almost funny how they are doing the same thing differently.

[Florena]

Thordan wasn't deep but he had a relatable goal of ending his peoples suffering. He just goes too far with the god king primal thing as his means of doing so. Nidhogg has his vengeance for his sister's murder compounded by how dragons perceive time. Neither are deep. Neither get much development. But I can latch onto their motives more easily than Zenos because they don't do anything to explore why he is the way he is. If others do that's fine. But i roll my eyes when he murders his underlings. I feel no sympathy when the sociopath tells me I'm his first friend. I didn't feel any thematic connection between him and Shinryu. And I feel like he was just wasted potential.

[Kazgrel]

Perhaps delving into the backstory of Fordola and/or Yotsuyu will reveal more about the background of Zenos in return, or at least shed some light on his actions/behavior. Wishful thinking, perhaps, but I'm of the mindset that we'll learn more about him (through others) from 4.1-4.3ish, maybe longer.

[Florena]

Perhaps delving into the backstory of Fordola and/or Yotsuyu will reveal more about the background of Zenos in return, or at least shed some light on his actions/behavior. Wishful thinking, perhaps, but I'm of the mindset that we'll learn more about him (through others) from 4.1-4.3ish, maybe longer.

They made him unsympathetic on purpose so I doubt it. Though I do expect development for Fordola and Yotsuyu I think it's too little too late for Zenos.

[lawow74]

They made him unsympathetic on purpose so I doubt it. Though I do expect development for Fordola and Yotsuyu I think it's too little too late for Zenos.

Pretty much. Zenos made me feel like one of the writers was standing there at my shoulder poking me going 'this guy is evil and bad and you should hate him because he's evil and bad' *poke poke poke poke poke*

[Graeham]

I didn't dislike Zenos, though as a Garlean fan who prefers a more nuanced take on Garlemald itself I did get a little ticked off when I read that Yoshi-P deliberately made Zenos unsympathetic because too many people were sympathising with the likes of Gaius and Regula.

I dislike that approach as it feels very heavy handed. The Emperor himself also wrote off his own heir as a monster and by Zenos' own admission he did not care to advance Garlemald's cause at all - he was killing and tormenting his own people just as often as he did with his enemies. Yet a lot of people will look at Garlemald and think that Zenos' policy is the norm when in reality it isn't - it's just a very, very warped and extreme version.

I also felt like Zenos' indifference to Garlemald just handed the Eorzean Alliance and its allies not one but two victories on a silver platter. None of the protagonists perished beyond a couple of minor characters...and scores of nameless soldiers that there's no investment with.

I'm at the point where I want the Eorzean Alliance, the Warrior of Light and Scions to fail properly and maybe be forced to account for their arrogance and hypocritical self righteousness. Especially once they inevitably realise that the scores of Garlean troops they're killing are people with loved ones, causes and dreams. With Zenos out of the picture that is going to be even more apparent if the story takes us deeper into Garlean territory through war alone.

[Florena]

I didn't dislike Zenos, though as a Garlean fan who prefers a more nuanced take on Garlemald itself I did get a little ticked off when I read that Yoshi-P deliberately made Zenos unsympathetic because too many people were sympathising with the likes of Gaius and Regula.

I dislike that approach as it feels very heavy handed. The Emperor himself also wrote off his own heir as a monster and by Zenos' own admission he did not care to advance Garlemald's cause at all - he was killing and tormenting his own people just as often as he did with his enemies. Yet a lot of people will look at Garlemald and think that Zenos' policy is the norm when in reality it isn't - it's just a very, very warped and extreme version.

I also felt like Zenos' indifference to Garlemald just handed the Eorzean Alliance and its allies not one but two victories on a silver platter. None of the protagonists perished beyond a couple of minor characters...and scores of nameless soldiers that there's no investment with.

I'm at the point where I want the Eorzean Alliance, the Warrior of Light and Scions to fail properly and maybe be forced to account for their arrogance and hypocritical self righteousness. Especially once they inevitably realise that the scores of Garlean troops they're killing are people with loved ones, causes and dreams. With Zenos out of the picture that is going to be even more apparent if the story takes us deeper into Garlean territory through war alone.

I feel the same about his attitude. It feels like we only won because the guy in charge didn't care at all.

[Kazgrel]

They made him unsympathetic on purpose so I doubt it. Though I do expect development for Fordola and Yotsuyu I think it's too little too late for Zenos.

I'm not asking nor hoping for them to play the sympathy card with him. I'm just looking for something that would go towards explaining his sociopathic behavior. Entirely possible the magitek experimentation was the cause of that (then we're back to that whole Zenos-is-Kefka-in-a-Lich-King-outfit thing).

I mean...I think my character had the right look on her face when Zenos was like "you're my only friend"..."dafuq you say? Yeah, nah". That exchange was more eyeroll-worthy than just about anything Lyse-related throughout the entire story.

- - - Updated - - -

I didn't dislike Zenos, though as a Garlean fan who prefers a more nuanced take on Garlemald itself I did get a little ticked off when I read that Yoshi-P deliberately made Zenos unsympathetic because too many people were sympathising with the likes of Gaius and Regula.

I dislike that approach as it feels very heavy handed. The Emperor himself also wrote off his own heir as a monster and by Zenos' own admission he did not care to advance Garlemald's cause at all - he was killing and tormenting his own people just as often as he did with his enemies. Yet a lot of people will look at Garlemald and think that Zenos' policy is the norm when in reality it isn't - it's just a very, very warped and extreme version.

I also felt like Zenos' indifference to Garlemald just handed the Eorzean Alliance and its allies not one but two victories on a silver platter. None of the protagonists perished beyond a couple of minor characters...and scores of nameless soldiers that there's no investment with.

I'm at the point where I want the Eorzean Alliance, the Warrior of Light and Scions to fail properly and maybe be forced to account for their arrogance and hypocritical self righteousness. Especially once they inevitably realise that the scores of Garlean troops they're killing are people with loved ones, causes and dreams. With Zenos out of the picture that is going to be even more apparent if the story takes us deeper into Garlean territory through war alone.

Bold emphasis mine. This is my biggest beef with the story of Stormblood thus far; the 4.0 story turned into an overwhelming victory in favor of us/the Scions/Eorzea/Doma/etc.. with little to no major losses on our side. I mean...there was Meffrid (who half of everyone probably forgot who he was...I'm guilty) and the sparsely-developed Conrad, whose role was a placeholder as resistance leader until he could go get ganked and turn it over to Lyse. The plot armor was thick in 4.0. I expected at least one of the Scions to eat dirt. That would've hit home pretty hard. Alisae surviving that hit from Fordola was probably critical for the latter having a redemption story, cause if she (Alisae) had not survived that...just about everyone would've wanted Fordola's head on a pike, lol.

Y'shtola actually biting the bullet would've worked to that effect brilliantly, but since that scene was tipped off in trailers, I was 99.9% sure they would not spoil such a huge plot device via trailer. But she not only has plot armor, but mascot armor...(note: I have nothing against her, and in fact enjoy her persona).

[Florena]

I thought Raubahn would die after giving Pipen the sword but nope.

Sad thing is too Zenos' failings also reflect poorly on the emperor who seems to know exactly what his son was and was doing at the end. He also made it easy to tale doma by leaving Yotsuyu in charge even after saying she wasn't qualified. The original idea for going to doma was to get a war in two fronts. Instead we just quickly win in doma and go back to ala mhigo where Zenos just sits on his throne waiting.

[Deleted]

We are only at 4.0 Plenty of time left for deaths and setbacks.Sure, Zenos is dead, but his father has plans of his own. Not to mention Elidibus who apparently has an odd choice at poicking host bodies.

[Deleted]

I didn't dislike Zenos, though as a Garlean fan who prefers a more nuanced take on Garlemald itself I did get a little ticked off when I read that Yoshi-P deliberately made Zenos unsympathetic because too many people were sympathising with the likes of Gaius and Regula.

I dislike that too... I don't even understand why this is a problem. I mean, why aren't we supposed to sympathise with them - it's not like the eorzean alliance is any better. Beastmen killing bastards, and we kill pretty much everything and everyone who doesn't agree with our view of "justice".
I'm actually glad that the history of the Garlean Empire is somewhat "sad"... I even thought that this was done on purpose, so we start doubting our own choices over the course of our own story. It doesn't feel right to me that we are always shining like a bright star, when we are in fact doing some seriously dubious and sinister things from time to time.

[StrawberryZebra]

Perhaps delving into the backstory of Fordola and/or Yotsuyu will reveal more about the background of Zenos in return, or at least shed some light on his actions/behavior. Wishful thinking, perhaps, but I'm of the mindset that we'll learn more about him (through others) from 4.1-4.3ish, maybe longer.

Honestly, if they were going to dive into the backstory of Zenos, they had a very convenient plot device with The Echo with which to do it. What little they've already given us about his backstory has already come largely from survivors who've seen him fighting, it would be very lazy of them to, I don't know... Have the Emperor show up and hit us with an Exposition Dump.

At this point do we even really care about him any more? The big bad of the expansion has been killed, it's time to move on to bigger and badder guys to kill, not spend a couple of patch cycles telling us who we've already beaten is. The story should be moving forwards, not going back to catch the audience up on what has already happened.

[Faroth]

Bold emphasis mine. This is my biggest beef with the story of Stormblood thus far; the 4.0 story turned into an overwhelming victory in favor of us/the Scions/Eorzea/Doma/etc.. with little to no major losses on our side. I mean...there was Meffrid (who half of everyone probably forgot who he was...I'm guilty) and the sparsely-developed Conrad, whose role was a placeholder as resistance leader until he could go get ganked and turn it over to Lyse. The plot armor was thick in 4.0. I expected at least one of the Scions to eat dirt. That would've hit home pretty hard. Alisae surviving that hit from Fordola was probably critical for the latter having a redemption story, cause if she (Alisae) had not survived that...just about everyone would've wanted Fordola's head on a pike, lol.

Y'shtola actually biting the bullet would've worked to that effect brilliantly, but since that scene was tipped off in trailers, I was 99.9% sure they would not spoil such a huge plot device via trailer. But she not only has plot armor, but mascot armor...(note: I have nothing against her, and in fact enjoy her persona).

Y'shtola would have been shock value for the sake of shock value and not much real purpose other than "death of character to motivate revenge." That's not exactly compelling in its own so much as cliche as hell, which people are complaining about to begin with.

I'd have gone with Krile having more weight because it was a failure on the Scions part + you could have been forced to fight her.

Alisae hasn't had development, so her death would have largely been uneventful other than just "a Scion died" and you could have Alphinaud's mourning. Alphinaud himself might have been celebrated by some players.

We've scratched two original Scions, killed a third that was introduced for the purpose of dying, and written another one out of the story now.

Y'sthola and Thancred are the only original scions left.
Alphinaud & Alisae were the first additions.
Krile is the newest added.

Seems like they keep the core Scions to around 5 characters (plus Urianger, but we need him for convenient plot devices and exposition now and then).



I think Square has reached the point where nothing they do is going to be good enough for the players anymore. I'm honestly surprised how much so many here seem to hate Stormblood.

But such is the Internet, where people can't stop talking about how much they hate something yet can't stop playing/talking about it. /shrug

[Graeham]

Mm. I struggle to sympathise with most of the protagonists simply because they have the Warrior of Light or other convenient plot devices to fall back on each and every time something bad happens. Yet when those who don't have such conveniences do their best to solve their own problems they're criticised at every possible turn. I feel like the story needs to do a better job at reflecting that moving forward.

Part of me is hoping that the Warrior of Light and Scions screw up so badly that they're forced to make some sort of pact with Garlemald for the sake of their mutual survival. I feel like that would be more interesting overall than simply having Garlemald be the 'big bad'. Thankfully with Elidibus meddling behind the scenes it appears as though it'll be him rather than Garlemald itself that serves as the main antagonist in the expansions to come.

Hopefully, anyway.

Still, I have to agree that plot armour is a major issue. For those of us who find the antagonists more interesting than the protagonists it's a major issue. Even Conrad and Meffrid seemingly only died to pave the way for Lyse to conveniently rise up as the new leader of the Resistance. I was surprised they didn't kill off M'naago and Arenvald as well - because it felt rather forced.

Then again, Lyse was the weakest part of 4.0 overall for me. I just hope by the time 5.0 swings around we're not dealing with her at all beyond the occasional cameo.

[Faroth]

Mm. I struggle to sympathise with most of the protagonists simply because they have the Warrior of Light or other convenient plot devices to fall back on each and every time something bad happens. Yet when those who don't have such conveniences do their best to solve their own problems they're criticised at every possible turn. I feel like the story needs to do a better job at reflecting that moving forward.

Part of me is hoping that the Warrior of Light and Scions screw up so badly that they're forced to make some sort of pact with Garlemald for the sake of their mutual survival. I feel like that would be more interesting overall than simply having Garlemald be the 'big bad'. Thankfully with Elidibus meddling behind the scenes it appears as though it'll be him rather than Garlemald itself that serves as the main antagonist in the expansions to come.

Hopefully, anyway.

Considering they see the beast tribes as barely above animals (and miqo'te not much above beast tribes), I don't see Garlemald being a lasting ally, even if there's some sort of bigger threat to force a temporary truce.

How would you suggest engaging the player by removing the players as being a part of the story's events? If you want the Warrior of Light removed as being relied upon, how exactly would that work? I mean, you're saying that having the player play through the game is a convenient plot device..... I'm not sure how you get around that.

I know someone else suggested having the Warrior of Light/Scions fail and all of Eorzea gets basically conquered by Garlemald, but...... yeah, I'm not eager to sign up for FFXIV: Cataclysm.

[Graeham]

Considering they see the beast tribes as barely above animals (and miqo'te not much above beast tribes), I don't see Garlemald being a lasting ally, even if there's some sort of bigger threat to force a temporary truce.

Eorzea doesn't tend to be much different, though. The only reason it has not pushed for complete annihilation of the Beast Tribes itself is due to having the Warrior of Light to solve the Primal threat. Unlike the Garleans, Eorzeans also have the ability to wield magic. Even within Eorzea there's a lot of persecution and discrimination against the Beast Tribes. They were kicked out of Ul'dah outright, for instance - and Limsa breached a peace treaty established with those that resided in Vylbrand.

Garlemald's stance, whilst harsh, is efficient in the grand scheme of things from the perspective of those who do not have the convenient 'quick fix' that is the Warrior of Light. They are very much well intentioned extremists who are willing to put the many over the few. They may very well be misguided, but the protagonists never seem to acknowledge the fact that the only reason their own allies aren't resorting to such measures is due to the Warrior of Light being able to solve their problems for them.