is 10m really that much easier?

[Applenazi]

Shall we compare to blood legion?
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...hinafae/simple
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Dexter/simple
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Bushino/simple

Sure, lets compare:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Bobina/simple
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...n/Nodzz/simple
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...n/Optee/simple

Oh no what happen!? Not everyone in Blood Legion has a 400 ilvl? But that's impossible because it would completely nullify your point and that would just be awkward.

[Jellyphant]

Sure, lets compare:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Bobina/simple
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...n/Nodzz/simple
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...n/Optee/simple

Oh no what happen!? Not everyone in Blood Legion has a 400 ilvl? But that's impossible because it would completely nullify your point and that would just be awkward.

OH my, someone picks the 3 best geared players in paragon and the 3 worst in blood legion? Did you even stop to consider that fact that every blood legion member has 5 alts? NO? Golly gee batman, that seems like a major oversight!

[Afrosaurus]

Do you have any idea how many hours they've been raiding?

EDIT: Holy balls, my sig is out of date.

[Varyk]

From my large experience in hardmodes, I would say that 25m DS is far easier than 10m DS for heroics.

Except for Morchok, Zon'ozz, Ultraxion, Warmaster Blackthorn, and both Deathwing fights.

[meroko]

Zonozz is a bit of a joke on 10 man apparently (5 tentacles vs 14 on 25 man)

If by five you mean eight. and trust me it's far from a joke, neither is Yorsajh, The healing requirement is INSANE to say the least on 10 man. I have no experienced past these yet though but I can only assume it gets harder.

[Vargur]

so, paragon, the worlds greatest wow guild is rank 3 while doing an "easier" raid, however Blood Legion is sticking to 25's and has rank 1? can one of you awesome, super elite 25m kids explain this to me?


u s a

u s a

<3

There's that - Every other guild got banned - World First guys - picture I'd like to post. But I won't.

[Applenazi]

OH my, someone picks the 3 best geared players in paragon and the 3 worst in blood legion? Did you even stop to consider that fact that every blood legion member has 5 alts? NO? Golly gee batman, that seems like a major oversight!

Actually I just picked 3 random people from both, if you could provide the entire 10 people Paragon is using I would appreciate it as I definitely would have if possible. It seems amazing that all the Blood Legion kids I found at random that happened to be present at most of, if not all of the kills were all alts; since that is what you appear to be inferring.

There is also the fairly simple point that it is extremely clear both Blood Legion and the 10 people Paragon happen to be using started the beginning of the raid week at roughly 391, and the gear they have gathered during the weeks progression isn't really relevant. The simple fact that Paragon and any other 25 man currently doing 10s started the week with more or less BiS nullifies the entire argument of "OMG LOLZ BLOOD LEGION HAS MAINS WITH AMAZING GEARS AND WE WERE IN BLUES AND GREENS AND SHIT BROSEPH".

[Jellyphant]

Actually I just picked 3 random people from both, if you could provide the entire 10 people Paragon is using I would appreciate it as I definitely would have if possible. It seems amazing that all the Blood Legion kids I found at random that happened to be present at most of, if not all of the kills were all alts; since that is what you appear to be inferring.

There is also the fairly simple point that it is extremely clear both Blood Legion and the 10 people Paragon happen to be using started the beginning of the raid week at roughly 391, and the gear they have gathered during the weeks progression isn't really relevant. The simple fact that Paragon and any other 25 man currently doing 10s started the week with more or less BiS nullifies the entire argument of "OMG LOLZ BLOOD LEGION HAS MAINS WITH AMAZING GEARS AND WE WERE IN BLUES AND GREENS AND SHIT BROSEPH".

If getting gear weren't a total joke, i'd give you that. But I can play a 398 ilvl feral druid and pull shit dps. Know why? Because I dont know how to play a feral druid. These aren't paragons main raiders on their mains, and thatss a performance hit. Gear has nothing to do with it.

[Applenazi]

If getting gear weren't a total joke, i'd give you that. But I can play a 398 ilvl feral druid and pull shit dps. Know why? Because I dont know how to play a feral druid. These aren't paragons main raiders on their mains, and thatss a performance hit. Gear has nothing to do with it.

Oh no, vague baseless assumptions? I guess you win this round!

THREAD OVER GUYS, It turns out it wasn't because of gear like this kid claimed in his first post. They are getting beat because they have no clue what the fuck they are doing. Case fucking closed, I am glad we did this.

[fews]

you dont GET that kind of gear without knowing your class. sorry.

---------- Post added 2011-12-09 at 09:04 AM ----------

Oh no, vague baseless assumptions? I guess you win this round!

THREAD OVER GUYS, It turns out it wasn't because of gear like this kid claimed in his first post. They are getting beat because they have no clue what the fuck they are doing. Case fucking closed, I am glad we did this.

lol youre a pretty cool guy <3

[Fulmetal]

Zonozz is a bit of a joke on 10 man apparently (5 tentacles vs 14 on 25 man)
Yorsahj is easier too.
Ultraxion is easier.
The boat is said to be overtuned for 10 man.

That's 3 bosses easier vs 1 boss harder, Hagara and Morchok I would guess are the same in terms of difficulty, and we're yet to see the reports from Spine/Madness.

Zonozz - 5 tentacles per 10 players, so for 25 you should have 12,5 tentacles, but depending on raid setup 10 mans might not have all buffs etc.
Yorsahj - i cant comment on, i cant see any special extra mechanics between 10 and 25
Ultraxion - depending on your teams gear, having the correct group setup can be very important
boat - yea i agree, our guild hit a bit of a wall there, we had to move the mele to the back of the boat and have them deal with the sappers and the ranged focus as much as possible on the drakes in the limited time we had to nuke them. and even then we had to swap out a lock for a mage since the lock lost too much dps on target switching.

now im not saying this to say 25 man is easier than 10. im saying that its dependant on the fight. however the challanges of a 10 man group are:
1. having all the buffs, having 2 of anything is a waste and costs dps/healing
2. if you loose 2 people its a wipe, sometimes even loosing one is a wipe as its healing/dps lost, mainly noticable in dps check fights like Ultraxion

for 25:

1. organising 25 people that know what they are doing
2. less space to spread out

thats prety much it i think, other than that its a encounter design / tuning issue. but hey, yea we struggled a bit on the ship, im guessing 25 is going to strugle somewhere on another boss... give and take i think its well balanced

[Deleted]

They never stated this. They stated that they would always be a 25 man guild, which is not the same thing as never doing 10 man.

If you even bother to take the time to read what they actually said on it

"Our stance has always been that 10-man and 25-man guilds should compete in different brackets. We are a 25-man guild, and in light of what happened, for us the race starts next week. We wanted to clarify that all the encounters we might possibly get down before that will be done in a 10-man setting and with a non-standard raid composition."

They are still a 25 man.

I was talking about something they said last tier. The quote you posted is not the passage I was referring to, but nice try fanboying it up. Why don't you crawl down out of their ass for a minute? I assure you, the sun shines brighter out here.

As far as I'm concerned they made themselves look like douchebags last tier with their 100%-non-biased-objective-and-fair "test" of 10m raids. Especially when they conveniently forgot to do the same "test" in T11, such as pre-nerf 10m Cho'gath with a weak AoE comp. I still think they were right in saying some fights (notably Rag, and Al'akir) are a lot harder in 25, and since those two are probably the hardest fights in Cata for ANY raid size they still get massive props and respect for the kills. They were right imo that the race should be in two separate brackets for 10 and 25, but their overall attitude and dismissal of 10s as "inferior" was quite douchy imo. So now I'm laughing my ass off that they are forced into doing 10s along with all the rest of us lower classes. =)

Of course that's just my $0.02, and opinions are like asses, everyone has one.

[Malefic]

Zon'ozz has 8 tentacles on 10HC, 1 Claw, 3 Flails and 4 Eyes (or 2 Flails/5 Eyes).

[Skroe]

Anyone saying that 25 is easier than 10 is mouthing off without actually doing it.

Let me put it another way. My guild... my very good guild (trust me) killed Heroic Zon'ozz 25 tonight. Our people really know what their doing. Everyone pulled over 40k dps. There were no weak links in our group. It took about 90 attempts to do it (about 25 of those were experimental "intended" wipes to try something we had no clue would work and / or boss bugging out).

Blood Legion killed the same boss in about 11 attempts on PTR in roughly 45 minutes. The video is on the interwebs. The log is on WoL. It is no different than 10 man on life. And the strat is also not in any way comparable to the 25 man version (believe me, we tried... we used it as our starting point because we aren't idiots). Even allowing it took us roughly twice as long as Blood Legion, consider it took Blood Legion considerably longer on live 25 man to than 10 man ptr.

So please explain to me, people who haven't done the fight, how do you square one this boss taking 11 attempts in 10 man, being something of a joke, and the absolute insanity it is on 25 man heroic.

I have a lot of friends in guilds among the top 150 and I always check in to see how they are doing. Pretty much every one of them is doing the fight wrong, that is, the guilds still trying. It's ridiculous considering that, to have anyone claim 10 is harder. It's not. Much of 10 is a joke and has been for two patches now.

Don't be surprised if Paragon pulls a World First 10m Spine of Deathwing out of their ass. Big flippin deal. 10 man is what you raid with your friends on Saturday afternoons with an achoholic drink in hand. 25 mans is what you raid if you want to compete against the best players in the world. The only reason that Paragon et. al. are doing this is because well, their 25 man is taking an 8 day vacation.

[Relive]

Did both, damage is ridicilus in 10 man, did 2 first bosses on heroics on our alts :|

[fews]

Captain the mad levels are rising what should we do

[Deleted]

So please explain to me, people who haven't done the fight, how do you square one this boss taking 11 attempts in 10 man, being something of a joke, and the absolute insanity it is on 25 man heroic.

a) PTR
b) Blood Legion
c) 25m going into 10s el oh el

Same logic that Paragon tried to pull last tier. Oh hey let me farm my ass off in 25m gear, then take my 10 best players and stack the fuck out of a 10m group to "proove" that I'm so fucking good and I can kill this boss faster now. Oh what!? My now uber-stacked raid got the boss down quickly? Clearly this is a size setting for scrubs who can't play.

Props to you for sticking to 25m and for dealing with fights which can objectively be proven to be harder (Al'akir much...) in that setting. But unless you did 10s from the very start of a tier then you didn't have to deal with a lot of the shit that actually makes 10s hard in the first place (note I didn't say harder) so don't be a condescending douche.

[DetectiveJohnKimble]

a) PTR
b) Blood Legion
c) 25m going into 10s el oh el

Same logic that Paragon tried to pull last tier. Oh hey let me farm my ass off in 25m gear, then take my 10 best players and stack the fuck out of a 10m group to "proove" that I'm so fucking good and I can kill this boss faster now. Oh what!? My now uber-stacked raid got the boss down quickly? Clearly this is a size setting for scrubs who can't play.

Props to you for sticking to 25m and for dealing with fights which can objectively be proven to be harder (Al'akir much...) in that setting. But unless you did 10s from the very start of a tier then you didn't have to deal with a lot of the shit that actually makes 10s hard in the first place (note I didn't say harder) so don't be a condescending douche.

From what you're saying, 10 man difficulty doesn't come from the encounter's mechanics themselves so much as you can't recruit the 10 best players for the job on your server. If that's true, then it's pretty hard to make a case that 10-man is objectively harder.

Your post also seems to indicate that there is a difference between 25 man and 10 man gear- I suppose in some attempt to make it seem like 25s are easier or something. This isn't Wotlk.

Anyway, I don't see a lot of people doing encounters on 10 man first and then attempting 25. On the other hand, people in 25 man guilds often do 10 man encounters on alts or whatever (whether before or after they've attempted 25), and generally find them easier. I've certainly experienced this throughout Cataclysm.

[Fulmetal]

I have a lot of friends in guilds among the top 150 and I always check in to see how they are doing. Pretty much every one of them is doing the fight wrong, that is, the guilds still trying. It's ridiculous considering that, to have anyone claim 10 is harder. It's not. Much of 10 is a joke and has been for two patches now.

ill explain that when you explain why, if 10 HC content is so much easier, is there not a 8/8 10 man group already... rather both 10 and 25 are on 6/8 at the moment...

[Deleted]

Threads like these contribute absolutely nothing now to be honest... everyone has their own opinion and all this leads to is flaming and mockery... should be locked as soon as first attacks appear