Welfare Legendary

[DeadmanWalking]

But it would still be difficult. You elitists are too arrogant to admit that heroic raiding isn't simple, especially when compared to afk'ing in LFR.

Do you often read something and then get mad and go making knee jerk reactionary comments on the internet because you didn't actually read what was said? Where did I ever say that Heroic raiding was simple? Where did I say that anyone can Heroic Raid? Why don't you put your reading glasses on and go back and read what I posted.

Let me sum it up for you as I was obviously too wordy for you. Someone complained that because it could be completed in LFR and everyone had it then it wasn't a legendary, so I suggested a potential situation where everyone on a server was a hardcore raider and all of them had this cloak on day 1. So everyone basically put the same amount of work in and yet everyone had the cloak, was it still not legendary?

And yet somehow in your brain you came to the conclusion that I was an elitist who thought that Hardcore raiding was easy. You have mastered reading and now all you have to do is figure out the understanding what you read part.

[Deficineiron]

Pretty sure that's the definition of any legendary that has been put in the game. Whether its farming the pieces or the raid itself, or whatever.

as long as one ignores the actual time investment on average required to get the legendary, AND any assumed skill-gating (yes, 'farming' tbc and classic legendaries post-mc as current content certainly carried a very high probability that you were above average skill - will you actually imply that the average skill of the players who actually downed KT or KJ as current content wasn't substantially higher than the average player overall?

I suspect the average raid time investment to gear their characters up to be able to do naxx, clear naxx at least once and also get 40 pieces of atiesh, etc., was multiples higher than this cloak.

it is important to note the use of the word 'average' in this discussion.

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Being fair though schwarzkopf, apart from maybe the volcano/tree guy in Firelands (which lets face it took 10 minutes out of your raid to complete), there wasn't a lot in the way of "extra" effort required by your guild and not just from you for any of the previous legendaries. Being the big blob on Festergut, or getting bitten on BQL, standing in frostbreath on Sindragosa is hardly epic proportions.

The only thing really that took effort from your guild to reward one person with a legendary is the legendary mount from the SotSS quest line...

atiesh would require clearing a prior raid again, though that presumably would have been on farm anyway. Otherwise you are right, illidan and kj drops were just that, added loot table possibilities.

[khalltusk]

as long as one ignores the actual time investment on average required to get the legendary, AND any assumed skill-gating (yes, 'farming' tbc and classic legendaries post-mc as current content certainly carried a very high probability that you were above average skill - will you actually imply that the average skill of the players who actually downed KT or KJ as current content wasn't substantially higher than the average player overall?

I suspect the average raid time investment to gear their characters up to be able to do naxx, clear naxx at least once and also get 40 pieces of atiesh, etc., was multiples higher than this cloak.

Nax was released 20 June 2006 TBC came out in Jan 16th.

So around 6-7months farming over all between that and TBC launch. You are right that the gear investment to gear up for Nax would be longer than now thats a given. You don't even have to suspect it. The raid system and gear system back then was brutal compared to now.

You state about actual time investment while on the quest and then go onto time investment for gear? That is not a fair comparison not in the slightest. The time invested to get this legendary and any other one if you started the quest today would still be longer than any other legendary if you ignored RNG.

[announced]

id say the only thing legendary about the cloak is.. the amount of time it takes to get it. chalk up 4-6 months and see how that compared with the rogues/ mages or shadowmourne. the challenge fight is kinda nice though but its w/e

[lostdrewid]

The fact of the matter is, this is one of the hardest legendaries in the game to get, requiring the most amount of work. The sole difference is that everyone can do it at the same time instead of one person out of an entire raid getting to work on his. Everyone bitching about this cloak not being legendary is really whinging that they don't get to be special snowflakes. It doesn't matter that they're sleeping with the Raid Leader anymore, they can't be the only person in their raid with something special.

[shocktrooprx]

So you think you could down Illidan when he was current content and get the Warglaive to drop, and then your guild would give you it?

The point is it was rarer and harder to get, not hur dur questing look at all the people with the capes.

the comparison between getting glaives and the cloak are pretty silly. getting the cloak is a guaranteed drop and isnt really hard, just tedious. praying that the fkn OH drops each lockout, heartbreaking....

[Deficineiron]

So other people doing most of the work for you is not 'welfare'? Isn't other people working to support you essentially the very definition of 'welfare'?

ha, only counterpoint is that the work on kt/kj/illidan was simply clearing the raid, which might have been considered normal raider gameplay when those 3 raids were top content. gearing raids also would have been a motivation. clearing aq40 again for atiesh is an exception.

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It doesn't matter that they're sleeping with the Raid Leader anymore, they can't be the only person in their raid with something special.

counterpoint - if everyone, literally, can get it, then is it more 'special' than any other game-wide-available quest reward?

[Caliph]

This thread is funny.

No it's not special but it's not welfare either.

If you had to work to get it, it wasn't free or welfare.

and how is it different getting a legendary in raids with a group helping you than it is for someone to do it by themself with no help. If someone can't raid full time heroically but goes through all of the steps to get this cloak isn't it then legendary for that player.

It's subjective. The heroic raider will qq about anything that others can get that only they used to be able to get. If you're casual and put in the time and effort as the op did then it's legendary.

I have it first day of 5.4 as well and i don't feel special, better, worse or welfare. It's just another item that i had to go through a rigemarole to get. I didn't feel like trying to get the staff either because of the heroic FL grind either. This was just something that i could do along the way so i did it.

Legendary, who cares. it's the best cloak in the game so you get it if you want. If you don't want so what.

[Pony Soldier]

This term annoys me greatly. It's only welfare if it's GIVEN to you. These people think just because it only took you a couple months it's a welfare item because for them it took 3 years to get or something. Lol please just stop, my 6 year old niece is more mature than that. I don't know where people get the "I did all the work so you should too" attitude like as if it was affecting their life in some way, I think it's ridiculous and shows you don't have much of a life. I don't think I will ever understand why some people care so much about how other people get gear whether it's the easy way or the hard way. It's a game people, get over yourselves and stop acting like you're Captain Fancypants because you have a pretty cape in a computer game.

[DeadmanWalking]

This term annoys me greatly. It's only welfare if it's GIVEN to you. These people think just because it only took you a couple months it's a welfare item because for them it took 3 years to get or something. Lol please just stop, my 6 year old niece is more mature than that. I don't know where people get the "I did all the work so you should too" attitude like as if it was affecting their life in some way, I think it's ridiculous and shows you don't have much of a life. I don't think I will ever understand why some people care so much about how other people get gear whether it's the easy way or the hard way. It's a game people, get over yourselves and stop acting like you're Captain Fancypants because you have a pretty cape in a computer game.

They are just mad because they once had a wet dream that someone drooled over some piece of gear they had on and thats the only way they can feel accomplished about what they do in game instead of self soothing themselves like any 6 month old infant is capable of.

They were under the misunderstanding that Blizzard created the game for them when Blizzard actually never intended for the majority of the playerbase to be locked out of the content with other players guarding the door to content.

The good news is all the things Casual-haters spit teeth about are being hard baked into the next expansion including LFR, LFD, Flex, Scenarios, Purple gear for all and a 'peoples Legendary'. The days of bootlicking are dead and gone, never to be seen again. Hopefully the Casual-Haters will quit polluting our game with their toxic behavior in a desperate bid to get others to notice that they are special like the baboon with the glowing red ass throwing its feces at everything while hooting its mating call, "LOOK AT ME!!! I'M SPECIAL!".

[spectrefax]

Legendaries are the new Epics, coming soon to a scenario boss loot table near you!

But yes, just logging in, doing menial, thoughtless tasks makes it welfare. Prying the glaives from the dead fingers of a current-content, 25-man raid boss was quite different. The main reason being that you couldn't get it on your own.

[Risale]

Real legendary : 25 people in a guild work their guts out so 1 person gets rewarded.
Welfare legendary : 1 person works their guts out so 1 person gets rewarded.

And no - it wasn't always possible to get the legendary on day one of 5.4 - RNG had a big say in that.

Unless your the only person on your server/faction then I would agree but I switched mains in 5.2 the new main hadn't done a single thing towards the legendary chain, I had the worst possible drop rates on sigils 27 wisdoms before I had 10 powers, same with runestones it sucked balls but I got the lot well before 5.4 dropped and on patch day I had the legendary cloak. So unless you didn't do LFR or raid each week for a very long time I don't see how you didn't get the legendary on day 1.
Hell I know people who had the damn thing on 3-4 toons on day 1 and they just do LFR stuff.

[wych]

Legendaries are the new Epics, coming soon to a scenario boss loot table near you!

But yes, just logging in, doing menial, thoughtless takes makes it welfare. Prying the glaives from the dead fingers of a current-content, 40-man raid boss was quite different. The main reason being that you couldn't get it on your own.

24 people carry a rogue to Illidan and he walks away with a glaive.

A guy works hard in LFR/Normal for a year completing the quests and finishing the trials to get his cloak.

I fail to see how #2 is possibly more "welfare".

Welfare epics was coined because of how you could get arena epics so quick and easily in TBC, the legendary isn't quick or arguably easy (beating the trial in certain roles in gear current at the time, beating the ToT scenario etc) so calling it "welfare" doesn't sit well with me and just dilutes the word into nothingness

[DeadmanWalking]

Unless your the only person on your server/faction then I would agree but I switched mains in 5.2 the new main hadn't done a single thing towards the legendary chain, I had the worst possible drop rates on sigils 27 wisdoms before I had 10 powers, same with runestones it sucked balls but I got the lot well before 5.4 dropped and on patch day I had the legendary cloak. So unless you didn't do LFR or raid each week for a very long time I don't see how you didn't get the legendary on day 1.
Hell I know people who had the damn thing on 3-4 toons on day 1 and they just do LFR stuff.

If they have it on 3-4 toons then my hats off to them because I am never doing that long chain of quests ever again no matter what.

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24 people carry a rogue to Illidan and he walks away with a glaive.

A guy works hard in LFR/Normal for a year completing the quests and finishing the trials to get his cloak.

I fail to see how #2 is possibly more "welfare".

Welfare epics was coined because of how you could get arena epics so quick and easily in TBC, the legendary isn't quick or arguably easy (beating the trial in certain roles in gear current at the time, beating the ToT scenario etc) so calling it "welfare" doesn't sit well with me and just dilutes the word into nothingness

I've actually seen this, we pugged in a hunter and once we got to Illidan he switched to undergeared Rogue and herp a derp walked away with the Glaive.

[Seefer]

Welfare legendary : 1 person works their guts out so 1 person gets rewarded.

You mean those people who could go afk or auto attack in LFR to get their legendary? Personally I think they should make it so you only got the drops in the real raid where you could be called out on auto attack dps or afking all the way through.

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This thread is funny.

No it's not special but it's not welfare either.

If you had to work to get it, it wasn't free or welfare.

and how is it different getting a legendary in raids with a group helping you than it is for someone to do it by themself with no help. If someone can't raid full time heroically but goes through all of the steps to get this cloak isn't it then legendary for that player.

It's subjective. The heroic raider will qq about anything that others can get that only they used to be able to get. If you're casual and put in the time and effort as the op did then it's legendary.

I have it first day of 5.4 as well and i don't feel special, better, worse or welfare. It's just another item that i had to go through a rigemarole to get. I didn't feel like trying to get the staff either because of the heroic FL grind either. This was just something that i could do along the way so i did it.

Legendary, who cares. it's the best cloak in the game so you get it if you want. If you don't want so what.

Then why not just have every item be green and not have a rating to it then? I mean if everyone can get it then it's just a green drop and pointless.

[Zatetic]

I think the reasoning behind it is because anybody can get them, as long as they put in enough time to do so.

Like every legendary.

Lets not pretend that tarecgosa or the daggers were difficult to get okay guys. You could pug both those instances p much from day 1.

[spectrefax]

24 people carry a rogue to Illidan and he walks away with a glaive.

A guy works hard in LFR/Normal for a year completing the quests and finishing the trials to get his cloak.

I fail to see how #2 is possibly more "welfare".

Welfare epics was coined because of how you could get arena epics so quick and easily in TBC, the legendary isn't quick or arguably easy (beating the trial in certain roles in gear current at the time, beating the ToT scenario etc) so calling it "welfare" doesn't sit well with me and just dilutes the word into nothingness

Still doesn't negate the fact that they made the barrier to entry so low that everyone and their brother is walking around with one.

I can count on one hand how many glaives I saw when Black Temple was current content. They've been steadily lowering the bar on legendaries, even since Dragonwrath, Tarecgosa's Rest. The lack of rarity and lower barrier of obtainment does indeed make it much more "welfare" than its predecessors.

[schwarzkopf]

there wasn't a lot in the way of "extra" effort required by your guild and not just from you for any of the previous legendaries.

So - what you are saying is that it was easy, required little effort - and therefore - welfare ?

[Zatetic]

Still doesn't negate the fact that they made the barrier to entry so low that everyone and their brother is walking around with one.

I can count on one hand how many glaives I saw when Black Temple was current content. They've been steadily lowering the bar on legendaries, even since Dragonwrath, Tarecgosa's Rest. The lack of rarity does indeed make it much more "welfare" than its predecessors.

That is because they changed the model. Glaives werent intended for progression, but for post progression and the following tier.

This cloak is intended for progression. Why release a legendary that you never actually progress with and then replace?

[wych]

Still doesn't negate the fact that they made the barrier to entry so low that everyone and their brother is walking around with one.

I can count on one hand how many glaives I saw when Black Temple was current content. They've been steadily lowering the bar on legendaries, even since Dragonwrath, Tarecgosa's Rest. The lack of rarity does indeed make it much more "welfare" than its predecessors.

Glaives like most legendaries were only so rare because the drop rate for either items leading up to it or the item itself was so low.