[Megathread] DotA 2

[Deleted]

I always find theorycrafting funny, but putting so much effort into something and not even checking the base values you are calculating from is pretty ridiculous.

Putting that aside, I personally don't find double RoP good idea. I haven't tried it, I haven't even checked most of the reddit threads, it just feels wrong for me because you sacrifice one more inventory slot for item you will probably get rid of pretty early. It may work out well on some low armored ranged heroes or in specific situation or lineups, but overall I don't think it's even worth so much attention.

OT: Stout shield on melee heroes is godlike though. The ability to tank creeps easily and such a big reduction to early lane harass has really put it on my number 1 choice on almost every melee hero I play and I really suffer when I see melee carry on my team getting harassed hard on lane and not spending the 250 gold for it. I know this is not the primary scope of the discussion, I just wanted to mention how awesome it is.

[EqualWin]

I always find theorycrafting funny, but putting so much effort into something and not even checking the base values you are calculating from is pretty ridiculous.

Putting that aside, I personally don't find double RoP good idea. I haven't tried it, I haven't even checked most of the reddit threads, it just feels wrong for me because you sacrifice one more inventory slot for item you will probably get rid of pretty early. It may work out well on some low armored ranged heroes or in specific situation or lineups, but overall I don't think it's even worth so much attention.

OT: Stout shield on melee heroes is godlike though. The ability to tank creeps easily and such a big reduction to early lane harass has really put it on my number 1 choice on almost every melee hero I play and I really suffer when I see melee carry on my team getting harassed hard on lane and not spending the 250 gold for it. I know this is not the primary scope of the discussion, I just wanted to mention how awesome it is.

I dont think its a waste in early game, and its like a "stout shield" for range heroes, only the 2nd rop might be a "waste" unless u go for basi/tranq. but you only lose 100g for 3 armor, so its not that bad

[PizzaSHARK]

I always find theorycrafting funny, but putting so much effort into something and not even checking the base values you are calculating from is pretty ridiculous.

Putting that aside, I personally don't find double RoP good idea. I haven't tried it, I haven't even checked most of the reddit threads, it just feels wrong for me because you sacrifice one more inventory slot for item you will probably get rid of pretty early. It may work out well on some low armored ranged heroes or in specific situation or lineups, but overall I don't think it's even worth so much attention.

OT: Stout shield on melee heroes is godlike though. The ability to tank creeps easily and such a big reduction to early lane harass has really put it on my number 1 choice on almost every melee hero I play and I really suffer when I see melee carry on my team getting harassed hard on lane and not spending the 250 gold for it. I know this is not the primary scope of the discussion, I just wanted to mention how awesome it is.

The idea is that the extra 5-7 damage the second ring absorbs per hit makes it worth it since you can sell it later.

I don't know why the fuck these people are taking so many autohits, though. Mid vs mid is always about who lands more spells than about who gets more autos, and safelane heroes basically don't trade shots with the offlaner, because an offlaner in range to get auto'd by supports is an offlaner that's gonna be first blood in a few seconds.

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I dont think its a waste in early game, and its like a "stout shield" for range heroes, only the 2nd rop might be a "waste" unless u go for basi/tranq. but you only lose 100g for 3 armor, so its not that bad

100 gold for 76 health is pretty much strictly better.

[Deleted]

Compare columns AA-AG for the table you linked to the one on Reddit. The AB column is different due to the changed block value on the Stout Shield, but AA and AC are the same. Furthermore, the outcomes of AF and AG show very similar results to the table on Reddit, the differences arising from cases where the incorrect value of a Stout Shield pushed it closer to the value of two rings, (Like AA, Bane and Batrider).

The value of Rings of Protection has remained identical across both tables. This leads to the conclusion that the original authors math for it is correct, and that they haven't done anything stupid like try dividing by zero. I have no idea what it is you are looking at if you are finding different values for the same fields. I do not really see how you can claim that someone else proving this math correct somehow invalidates all of its results?

No one cares if you know how to add 2 apple+1 orange if you only have 1 apple and 1 orange. His math is incorrect in that sense that he is using the wrong value for Stout shield. Why are you so stuck on semantics? It's his results that matter. Him doing the correct calculations for damage reduced by 2 rings doesn't matter if he is going to use it to compare it to damage reduced by stout with respect to the gold spent because his calculation for stout is wrong.

I'm just interested in the AF field because that is what matters. PMS is uninteresting as it's only bought on melees and I've already stated that Stout>Rings on melees. Looking at the AF column and comparing it to the reddit table you see that they differ for heroes like AA, Clinkz, CM, Invoker, Dusa, Mirana, Necrophos, OD, Puck, Razor, Sniper, Viper. That's not "very few" cases.

I wrote that the values used by the author leads to the wrong conclusions, which is true. Just look at above mentioned heroes.

[Sorcereria]

The OP corrects for that stuff once people make him aware of it. Stout Shield does block 60% over all attacks, PRD only means it's about 53% for the first attack in a series, not total; you don't understand PRD if you think it's 53% overall.

Do I really need to quote Pizza again about 60 and 53% ? Are you gonna argue which value is more important right now?

[Deleted]

Do I really need to quote Pizza again about 60 and 53% ? Are you gonna argue which value is more important right now?

HAHAHAHA. Do you understand PRD? Pizza for sure doesn't. Why do you keep quoting and linking other's people's text if you don't understand the mechanic yourself? Actually, if you look at first hit for Stout Shield it's even lower than 53% chance to block so you're only shooting yourself in the foot even more. PRD uses the forumla P = C*N. While in theory C should be 0.4 smth for 60%, Dota 2 uses the value 0.33324 which means the chance is 53% to block on average. C is the initial probability in a series of attacks so for Stout shield the first attack in a series is 33% chance to block, not 60% as your beloved PizzaSHARK says.

How can you not know this shit? Do you think Void has a 25% chance to bash on his first hit? No, he doesn't.

[Sorcereria]

Dota 2 uses the value 0.33324 which means the chance is 53% to block on average.

So where we did we shoot ourself in the foot? Are you gonna come up with a new magic number 53.00000001 or 52.023123151342342 trying to prove the math is wrong?

Whether you use the value 60% , 55% or even 45% for stout, the overall avg. dmg blocked will be within 1-3% difference well becouse the dmg block is counted BEFORE ARMOR. That means if you take on avg. 20 less dmg per hit, figure out the difference of even 5%. Oh wait, its negligible suddenly if you wanna fight for your f*** knows what magic %.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...OtA/edit#gid=0
This is rearticulated 53% stout. Almost same results. But I guess the understanding is too tough for you to chew the fact, and let me rearticulate it again, data is CORRECT.

The conclusion you might wanna draw out of the data will ALWAYS DIFFER based on personal preference due to the fact that this data does not simulate EHP and scenarios.
Nobody does have 6k HP at level 1 to just stand there and take hits endlessly just to prove that X > Y > Z >= P becouse simply put, your lane sustain depends on EHP not on your mitigation.

[Deleted]

So where we did we shoot ourself in the foot? Are you gonna come up with a new magic number 53.00000001 or 52.023123151342342 trying to prove the math is wrong?

Whether you use the value 60% , 55% or even 45% for stout, the overall avg. dmg blocked will be within 1-3% difference well becouse the dmg block is counted BEFORE ARMOR. That means if you take on avg. 20 less dmg per hit, figure out the difference of even 5%. Oh wait, its negligible suddenly if you wanna fight for your f*** knows what magic %.

You are ofc right. I need more pizza and magic numbers

You said the first attack in a series is 53%. Lol. Let me quote what you quoted: "PRD only means it's about 53% for the first attack in a series". In reality it is around 33%.

Here are my "magic" numbers: http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Pseudo-random_distribution

Unlike you monkeys I don't pull random numbers from my ass.

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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...OtA/edit#gid=0
This is rearticulated 53% stout. Almost same results. But I guess the understanding is too tough for you to chew the fact, and let me rearticulate it again, data is CORRECT.

LOL. Did you just link something I linked like 10 posts ago and which I've been discussing for last page or two? And I'm the one with bad reading comprehension?

[PizzaSHARK]

sigh... it's really absurd how broken PA is right now. They should just hotfix some nerfs to her dagger and she'll honestly probably be fine. Add a mana cost, increase the cooldown, introduce range scaling... there are so many ways you could nerf it just a little and it'd probably fix her. So much of her being broken is due to the fact that she has an ultra-safe lane no matter which lane, or what she's against, because she can fling daggers from 1200 range for virtually no cost to secure at least 1-2 CS per wave, uncontested.

And she's a hero that relies on generating momentum. If she's even on XP and farm pretty much the entire game, she's not at all overpowered... strong, but certainly not OP. But because she's guaranteed to find farm, no matter what kind of lane you send against her, or which lane you send her to, she gets that farm and therefore is OP. It's because she can get those quick, early items she needs to get easy picks against weakened enemy heroes, which then lets her get more items, and then transitions into taking towers, Roshan, and then eventually a fairly quick BKB to seal the game. And it's because you can't deny her farm in lane. You can't push her out of lane, bully her, anything like that.

Generally speaking, other momentum heroes have drawbacks to compensate for their enormous early potential - SF can hit harder than damned near anyone if he gets farmed, but dying sets him way back due to Necromastery mechanics, and he's very vulnerable to ganks, which limits where he can be laned. Slark is surprisingly easy to kill if he can't ult, and he's fairly easy to contain in lane until he hits 6. PA used to have a factor like that, but repeated somewhat unnecessary buffs to her have largely removed that, which is why she's OP now.

I'm just glad the arcana is making her super common, because super common heroes always get nerfed, whether they need it or not.

[Sorcereria]

[COLOR="#417394"]
LOL. Did you just link something I linked like 10 posts ago and which I've been discussing for last page or two? And I'm the one with bad reading comprehension?[/QUOTE]

All you have been trying is was to discard the data provided earlier, when, for a FACT, the author of your link publicly states that THE data provided earlier with 60% stout matches his 52-53% results and HELLO, briefly checking the margin of error is ~5% in most cases. Probably close to 0% if dota does round up numbers lower than 1.

Being more ignorant than the author of a letter. Thats who you are.

I let myself be ignorant and not link you your source words.

[StrawberryZebra]

I'm just interested in the AF field because that is what matters.

Then you've missed a lot of the important details in both. This is the first time I've ever seen data comparing one or two rings to Shield items. I'm not saying no one has done it before, I've just not come across it if they have. We don't just know which is better, but also how much better that it is. There are some cases where the difference is between a single ring and a stout shield is in hundredths of a gold. The difference in Legion Commander's case is so small it could as just well be statistical noise.

There's also other little bits you can take away from this too. Such as how much %age mitigation you are getting against all physical damage. Its not a big deal, but it can allow you to make a better informed decision when you expect to lane against Heroes with physical damage skills such as Bristleback or Dazzle.

You can also apply it to what item build path you plan on taking, and know just how much or how little gold you're wasting later down the line. You can work out how best to make your gold work for you, not just by eyeballing it or by "feel", but with actual mathematical evidence to back it up. Admittedly the in-game applications are limited, but they are there.

But you seem to be determined to "win" this discussion. So well done, you win! I'm going to go whinge about PA some more.

And it's because you can't deny her farm in lane. You can't push her out of lane, bully her, anything like that.

-snip-

I'm just glad the arcana is making her super common, because super common heroes always get nerfed, whether they need it or not.

The best you can hope for with PA is to shut her down early with ganks, (or killing her if she gets sloppy in lane). I know that's far from exclusive to just PA, but its just as effective against her as it is on others. You can bully her out, but again that depends more on her playing badly than you playing well. If that fails, she can be forced to farming with her dagger quite easy with the right Heroes. Its not perfect, but at least she is losing some farm.

If she does get nerfed, I'm not so sure she'll get nerfed properly however. Usually they overshoot the mark by so much they leave the Hero in need of serious buffs just to get back to a state where they're even pickable again. Personally, I'd like to see her get the same kind of treatment Bloodseeker and PL got and get a full rework. I don't think she is bad in her current state, she's just such a bland Hero in every way possible. Her skill set is especially bland, and relies a little too much on RNG, (okay okay, PRD). I think there are a lot of things they could do with her to make her a far more interesting Hero, both to play and to play against.

That said, I do think most carries have bland skillsets in general. My opinion of her may be ever so slightly biased. I would like her to be in a position where she is able to be balanced without having to nerf some of her skills to near uselessness, then subsequently buffing the RNG element later on to compensate. A remake, even a mini one, is really the only way that can happen unfortunately.

[Deleted]

All you have been trying is was to discard the data provided earlier, when, for a FACT, the author of your link publicly states that THE data provided earlier with 60% stout matches his 52-53% results and HELLO, briefly checking the margin of error is ~5% in most cases. Probably close to 0% if dota does round up numbers lower than 1.

Being more ignorant than the author of a letter. Thats who you are.

I let myself be ignorant and not link you your source words.

No, he didn't. He confirmed that the values for RoP and PMS were calculated correctly. Not for Stout Shield.

I recalculated all the values from scratch (cf. cells formula in the spreadsheet), and can confirm the PMS and RoPs values of OP's table.

What 60 vs 53% does it swing 2 RoP>Stout in the favor of many ranged which in the original table it didn't. You also ignored everything I said about PRD, lol. Too advanced math for a middle schooler? You are literally stupid. Welcome to my ignore again.

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Then you've missed a lot of the important details in both. This is the first time I've ever seen data comparing one or two rings to Shield items. I'm not saying no one has done it before, I've just not come across it if they have. We don't just know which is better, but also how much better that it is. There are some cases where the difference is between a single ring and a stout shield is in hundredths of a gold. The difference in Legion Commander's case is so small it could as just well be statistical noise.

There's also other little bits you can take away from this too. Such as how much %age mitigation you are getting against all physical damage. Its not a big deal, but it can allow you to make a better informed decision when you expect to lane against Heroes with physical damage skills such as Bristleback or Dazzle.

You can also apply it to what item build path you plan on taking, and know just how much or how little gold you're wasting later down the line. You can work out how best to make your gold work for you, not just by eyeballing it or by "feel", but with actual mathematical evidence to back it up. Admittedly the in-game applications are limited, but they are there.

But you seem to be determined to "win" this discussion. So well done, you win! I'm going to go whinge about PA some more.

Yes, and relying on faulty data to come to any conclusion is fucking stupid. I rather rely on data which uses correct data models and which isn't made by a guy who doesn't know Dota 2 mechanics. The same way I'd rather rely on a guy who is a professor in math to do some calculations for me instead of a 10 year old. The AF column(2 RoP>Stout) was wrong for the guy on reddit and it's the only field that matters because all values he calculated before that such as %damage reduction, damaga reduction/gold were all calculated so he can use it for the AF column.

[veiledy0]

I'm just glad the arcana is making her super common, because super common heroes always get nerfed, whether they need it or not.

Ye, that's why they nerfed Invoker, and now his winrate is closing in on IO's.

[PizzaSHARK]

The best you can hope for with PA is to shut her down early with ganks, (or killing her if she gets sloppy in lane). I know that's far from exclusive to just PA, but its just as effective against her as it is on others. You can bully her out, but again that depends more on her playing badly than you playing well. If that fails, she can be forced to farming with her dagger quite easy with the right Heroes. Its not perfect, but at least she is losing some farm.

Thing is, she's actually pretty safe against ganks. Most damage for the first 3-4 levels of the game is from autos (hence why RoP/stout is considered so good), and together with her high base STR, good base armor, 20% evasion, and the fact she will almost always get PMS... she's really really hard to hurt with autos, and then she can always blink to a creep or friendly hero 1k range away even if you do catch her out. It's the only reason PA mid even works; you literally cannot deny her farm because 1200 range daggers with no cost or cooldown, and even if you get a perfect Fissure block or something on her, she can just blink to a creep a screen away.

They just need to nerf her laning and I don't think she'll be a huge problem anymore. Strong, but not blatantly OP like she is now. Forcing her to farm with daggers isn't enough, because daggers are so damned good at farming. Sure, she'll get maybe two creeps per wave instead of four, but that's a hell of a lot better than most other heroes will get when they're being pressured hard.

That said, I do think most carries have bland skillsets in general. My opinion of her may be ever so slightly biased. I would like her to be in a position where she is able to be balanced without having to nerf some of her skills to near uselessness, then subsequently buffing the RNG element later on to compensate. A remake, even a mini one, is really the only way that can happen unfortunately.

I'm not sure what can be done to make her less reliant on flipping coins. It's basically the entire design of the hero - random chance to instagib enemies. She's more chaotic than fucking Chaos Knight. You could easily remove the RNG reliance from her, but then you're probably disrupting the hero's theme in the process. I mean, personally I think all crits and evades in the game should operate like Jinada or at least Drunken Brawler, but that would require a lot of work to balance out properly. You could make her a little less bullshit by only allowing the first crit every X seconds to hit for extreme damage, with all other crits inside that timeframe being relatively normal crits (2.00x-3.00x.)

Honestly, though, calling it Coup de Grace doesn't even make sense. A coup de grace is a mercy killing - something you do to put a badly wounded person or animal out of their misery. In D&D, it's used as a full-round action that scores an automatic critical hit and can only be used on helpless (paralyzed, stunned, etc) or disabled foes, and immediately kills the target if they fail a Fortitude save against the damage+10.

If they really wanted the skill to make sense with what it's named after, it should cause critical damage proportional to amount of HP the target is missing, or only cause extreme damage on disabled targets. Blinking from a screen away and critting someone for 1200 on your first swing isn't really a "coup de grace."

Ye, that's why they nerfed Invoker, and now his winrate is closing in on IO's.

Yeah, I don't really know why people act like Icefrog/Valve is some kind of god when it comes to gameplay balancing. I mean, DotA is playable and usually fun, but he/they have made some seriously bizarre balancing decisions in the past couple of years. Every major patch seems to arrive with a few really fucking awesome changes and a few really questionable changes.

But fuck Invoker. Playing against a good Invoker is an exercise in frustration.

[Mister K]

Ye, that's why they nerfed Invoker, and now his winrate is closing in on IO's.

Invoker has way higher winrate than IO.

[Deleted]

Ye, that's why they nerfed Invoker, and now his winrate is closing in on IO's.

Well to be fair the nerfs were mainly targeted at cold snap and forge spirits, which is probably the easiest way to play invoker, also probably the most frequent build on lower MMR pubs. I don't think he's much worse than he was, he is still pretty good imo and a lot of fun to play.

[EqualWin]

Ye, that's why they nerfed Invoker, and now his winrate is closing in on IO's.

tbh he deserved the nerfs, he was strong as fuck, not like the nerf killed him. Cold snap still "op" with urn or if you micro ur spirits (not atacking at the same time).

if I remember correctly the quas wex nerf was the biggest, but still ok

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Invoker has way higher winrate than IO.

invoker has like 44-45%? io 40% xD

[PizzaSHARK]

Cold Snap is just pure, unadulterated horseshit and I'd love to see it get nerfed even more. It's like Malefice on steroids - effectively a 3 sec stun at level 1, 1k cast range, fairly short cooldown. Really good skill. Then again, Invoker doesn't really need any nerfs. Or buffs. Seems pretty okay to me right now, just a pain in the ass to play against if the guy playing him is any good.

Also, wiki's saying that ion cannon pierces magic immunity now. That's a pretty sizable boost to him if that's true. Confirm/deny?

[Mister K]

tbh he deserved the nerfs, he was strong as fuck, not like the nerf killed him. Cold snap still "op" with urn or if you micro ur spirits (not atacking at the same time).

if I remember correctly the quas wex nerf was the biggest, but still ok

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invoker has like 44-45%? io 40% xD

3-5% difference in a game where millions of matches are played weekly/monthly is a HUGE difference ^^

[Crackleslap]

I almost forgot invoker existed! I haven't seen that dude in ages! Thank fuck for that...