Tinker Class Concept 2018 (long)

[Darktbs]

I'm aware of that, but this isn't the first time we've encountered Legion tech. We should be able to construct things from it at this point. Same goes for Titan tech.

/Shrug
I believe now we will be seeing more of this kind of techonology, with legion opening more Thematic things.

I'm really surprised that you guys are arguing that with the heated discussion about the Light Forged Warframe in this thread.

The problem is game design dictates that the Light forged was given as a reputation thing, not throught engineering, and the rest of the Draenei techonology isn't even used in Lore let alone gameplay.

They can have the most logical reason to introduce something to a Class/profession but choose not to.

Example: Dks and Divine steed from Paladins.

So how can i fault Engineering for something that not even the race uses.

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@Rhamses point still stands though; Legion tech is oretty much nonexistent outside of Reaves.

"There is no Legion Tech other then this Legion tech"

[Ielenia]

The game itself says that they repurposed the tech.

Where? I don't have access to the game right now, and nothing on WoWHead or Gamepedia say anything about that, that I could find.

That's interesting. So you honestly don't believe that the Lightforged Warframes are an example of Naaru/Draenei tech when they're called "machines" in-game?

Care to point out where I said that? Also, just to keep things in perspective: the 'engine of souls', in the Tomb of Sargeras, is considered a machine, despite not really being a machine. Also, the second boss in GunDrak is also considered a mechanical.

@Rhamses point still stands though; Legion tech is oretty much nonexistent outside of Reaves.

That wasn't his point. He just said that "calling Reaves a dip into Legion technology is a bit of a stretch". And as for the Reaves, if it was just the battery, you'd have a point, but the thing is expanded a few times throughout the expansion, too.

[Rhamses]

It's still Titan technology. They haven't really "re-purposed" anything because the Titan tech still remains intact, only with some different programming.

What Teriz said.

The game also says that the Mogu themselves built the Anima Golems.

The issue about them being tech or not didn't really come into play. As for the draenei vigilants, I assume you're talking about the golems walking around Mac'Aree? If so, I'm not sure they are "clearly robots" considering the only two times (to my knowledge) where we were privy to the way they're built, they require souls. If they truly were machines, they wouldn't need souls.

They're clearly robots because miniature versions don't have souls in them, and are used to protect domesticated Elekks, and the Arakkoa copied the tech in order to create Araknath which is powered by Solar Energy and not souls.

"I found that thingy down in Azsuna, just lying on the beach. I'm sure with a little tinkering, an engineer like you could probably get it up and running in no time.

Might even be useful against the Legion. Kind of like fighting fel with fel, heh!"
From the quest that starts you on the chain to get the Reaves' Battery schematic. So, yes, it is Legion technology.

I stand corrected then.

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/Shrug
I believe now we will be seeing more of this kind of techonology, with legion opening more Thematic things.

I don't know... What's coming out of BfA isn't filling me with a whole lot of hope in that regard.

The problem is game design dictates that the Light forged was given as a reputation thing, not throught engineering, and the rest of the Draenei techonology isn't even used in Lore let alone gameplay.

I gotta disagree with that point, especially in Legion and earlier in WoD. We saw quite a few examples of Draenei/Naaru technology with the spaceships, the Warframes, the Vigilants, the crystals, etc. Draenei were using quite a lot of technology in both of those expansions.

They can have the most logical reason to introduce something to a Class/profession but choose not to.

Example: Dks and Divine steed from Paladins.

So how can i fault Engineering for something that not even the race uses.

Hey, I just said that its a pretty big shortcoming for a profession that's supposed to deal with all aspects of technology in WoW. If it's not up to the task, then we need more than what the profession has to offer.

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Not likely. The WC3 hero was utilizing Goblin tech, and the HotS hero utilizes some forms of Gnome tech.

Geez Teriz, stop being so uptight. There's nothing wrong with considering a possibility of a tech class using tech from other sources beyond Goblins and Gnomes.

[Edlarel]

Geez Teriz, stop being so uptight. There's nothing wrong with considering a possibility of a tech class using tech from other sources beyond Goblins and Gnomes.

What I like about this possibility is that it opens up options to start the character with traditional goblin/gnome tech and branch out through leveling or in expansion content to get other stuff like Naru and/or Legion tech.

[Teriz]

Where? I don't have access to the game right now, and nothing on WoWHead or Gamepedia say anything about that, that I could find.

From the Spoils of Pandaria:
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=145864/...defense-system

Calls forth a cacophany of things constructed of great Goblin engineering and mixed with prototype Titan technology. Nobody knows what this machine does, but it surely won't leave anyone left behind to find out.

From Mogu'shan Vaults:

Elegon – Dedicated to the advancement of their empire, the mogu salvaged and repurposed titan technology to generate untold power in the depths of this ancient complex. Why these energies have been focused into the cold will of a celestial dragon is a mystery that lies at the very heart of the vaults.

Care to point out where I said that? Also, just to keep things in perspective: the 'engine of souls', in the Tomb of Sargeras, is considered a machine, despite not really being a machine. Also, the second boss in GunDrak is also considered a mechanical.

http://www.wowhead.com/item=152788/lightforged-warframe

"The Army of the Light conducts quick, brutal hit-and-run attacks using these agile war machines."

Just fyi, the second boss in GunDrak is stated to have been created via magic.

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Geez Teriz, stop being so uptight. There's nothing wrong with considering a possibility of a tech class using tech from other sources beyond Goblins and Gnomes.

I have no real issue with the idea of various tech types being used for a single class beyond its sheer unlikelihood. It's like the Monk class being confined to the Pandaren variety instead of including the Human, Draenei, and Blood Elf versions.

In the end, if Blizzard went this route I would have absolutely no issue with it. In fact, I'd welcome it. I just don't see it happening, that's all.

[Rhamses]

What I like about this possibility is that it opens up options to start the character with traditional goblin/gnome tech and branch out through leveling or in expansion content to get other stuff like Naru and/or Legion tech.

I also like the fact that you can't say "Engineering already covers this!" The profession definitely does not deal with exotic tech in any significant way.

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From the Spoils of Pandaria:
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=145864/...defense-system


From Mogu'shan Vaults:




http://www.wowhead.com/item=152788/lightforged-warframe


Just fyi, the second boss in GunDrak is stated to have been created via magic.

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I have no real issue with the idea of various tech types being used for a single class beyond its sheer unlikelihood. It's like the Monk class being confined to the Pandaren variety instead of including the Human, Draenei, and Blood Elf versions.

In the end, if Blizzard went this route I would have absolutely no issue with it. In fact, I'd welcome it. I just don't see it happening, that's all.

Understood, but I think you're too quick to shoot down alternative ideas. Ease up a little. All of us aren't Ielenia trying to attack the Tinker idea.

[Ielenia]

From the Spoils of Pandaria:
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=145864/...defense-system


From Mogu'shan Vaults:

I stand corrected, then. However, considering Helix is dead, the knowledge about titan technology could be lost and we could be back at square one. And, in the end, Mogu "technology" is still Titan technology. Otherwise if "repurposing technology" makes the technology their own, then a goblin repurposing Titan technology wouldn't be using Titan technology, only goblin technology.

http://www.wowhead.com/item=152788/lightforged-warframe

I'm not so sure the word "machine" is a synonym for technology in a world of sorcery like Warcraft. One could make the case that the word "machine" can be used as a generic term to describe something with moving parts, regardless if it's mechanical or magical, like an arcane golem.

Just fyi, the second boss in GunDrak is stated to have been created via magic.

That's the point. The game also considers it mechanical.

[tttsssrrr]

I've liked this idea, but only as a Tank/Ranged DPS class. Tinkers shouldn't get a healing spec. Demon hunters can only be blood elf and night elf. A class with only two racial options does just fine with only two specs. To say that gnomes and goblins can heal with technology at an equal level to druids, paladins and shamans is a step too far. (Technology healing felt off even in Star Wars: I suspect it would feel horrible in WoW: imo.) They wouldn't need a ranged and melee DPS spec because the shredder blades and chainsaws (etc.) would belong to the tank. I also don't think that the DPS class should eschew the mech in favor of turrets. It would limit what raid designers could come up with too much movement/too situational. If there was too much set up required before a fight, it would get old fast. And what about Mythic+ content where everyone is moving as fast as possible? I could see A turret as a viable talent option, but to make it a focus of the spec, I don't like.

[Teriz]

I stand corrected, then. However, considering Helix is dead, the knowledge about titan technology could be lost and we could be back at square one. And, in the end, Mogu "technology" is still Titan technology. Otherwise if "repurposing technology" makes the technology their own, then a goblin repurposing Titan technology wouldn't be using Titan technology, only goblin technology.

If one Goblin can repurpose Titan Tech, why couldn't another one? The point is that the playable races can use titan tech, and the engineering profession doesn't utilize titan tech at all.

I'm not so sure the word "machine" is a synonym for technology in a world of sorcery like Warcraft. One could make the case that the word "machine" can be used as a generic term to describe something with moving parts, regardless if it's mechanical or magical, like an arcane golem.


That's the point. The game also considers it mechanical.

Except someone can hop inside and actually pilot the Warframe. There's also Draenei and Legion trans-dimensional spaceships, and I'm pretty sure the game actually calls them spaceships. How can those not be considered technology?

[Ielenia]

If one Goblin can repurpose Titan Tech, why couldn't another one? The point is that the playable races can use titan tech, and the engineering profession doesn't utilize titan tech at all.

You tell me. You were the one that made the argument that Blackfuse's genius cannot be recreated, now that he and his engineering company are dead, in this very same thread. When I wrote that the Blackfuse Company was not the only technology company on Azeroth, and that a mech like the Iron Reaver could be built by others, you responded with this:

How does it not matter than the Blackfuse Company is destroyed if they're the ones who built the mech (from a schematic)? How does it not matter that Blackfuse is dead when he's the one who originally designed the mech in the first place?

All of the players in the creation of piloting and building that mech being dead or destroyed matters a great deal.

Except someone can hop inside and actually pilot the Warframe. There's also Draenei and Legion trans-dimensional spaceships, and I'm pretty sure the game actually calls them spaceships. How can those not be considered technology?

Have you been inside the Vindicaar? How can you even consider it to be technology, since there's no technology anywhere in that ship, being purely magical crystals, magical crystals, magical crystals everywhere, in there!

[Teriz]

You tell me. You were the one that made the argument that Blackfuse's genius cannot be recreated, now that he and his engineering company are dead, in this very same thread. When I wrote that the Blackfuse Company was not the only technology company on Azeroth, and that a mech like the Iron Reaver could be built by others, you responded with this:

Designing a mech and having someone build it after you're dead =/= Being smart enough to repurpose ancient technology

Also I do believe that argument revolves around your notion that the Iron Reaver is going to be mass produced somehow despite the destruction of the Iron Horde and the Blackfuse company.

Have you been inside the Vindicaar? How can you even consider it to be technology, since there's no technology anywhere in that ship, being purely magical crystals, magical crystals, magical crystals everywhere, in there!

You mean like Protoss technology (which is exactly where Blizzard pulled it from)?

[Ielenia]

Designing a mech and having someone build it after you're dead =/= Being smart enough to repurpose ancient technology

True. You need to be much smarter and proficient with technology to be able to understand and repurpose alien technology, than you have to be to build a robot, especially if we're following someone else's schematics. And this brings us back to my point: if you claim others are unable to build a mech like the iron reaver, now that Blackfuse is dead and his technology company destroyed, then that means we won't be able to understand and repurpose alien technology. You kind of shot your own foot here, Teriz.

Also I do believe that argument revolves around your notion that the Iron Reaver is going to be mass produced somehow despite the destruction of the Iron Horde and the Blackfuse company.

Two things astronomically wrong with that strawman: one, I did not say that the Iron Reaver itself would be rebuilt. I said a mech like it. And two, I don't think I ever wrote anything about "mass-producing" mechs. That's entirely your fabrication.

You mean like Protoss technology (which is exactly where Blizzard pulled it from)?

Source for the underlined claim, please?

[Teriz]

True. You need to be much smarter and proficient with technology to be able to understand and repurpose alien technology, than you have to be to build a robot, especially if we're following someone else's schematics. And this brings us back to my point: if you claim others are unable to build a mech like the iron reaver, now that Blackfuse is dead and his technology company destroyed, then that means we won't be able to understand and repurpose alien technology. You kind of shot your own foot here, Teriz.

Except that wasn't the claim I was making in that argument. I was rebutting your claim that anyone could mass produce that mech without the Iron Horde and the Blackfuse Company. In this particular argument, nothing stops another Goblin or Gnome from coming along and repurpose Titan tech like Blackfuse did.

Source for the underlined claim, please?

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Argus

Which also happens to be the name of the Draenei homeworld.

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Understood, but I think you're too quick to shoot down alternative ideas. Ease up a little. All of us aren't Ielenia trying to attack the Tinker idea.

Well feel free to come up with a logical way such a tech class could work. I'd love to hear it.

[Ielenia]

I was rebutting your claim that anyone could mass produce that mech without the Iron Horde and the Blackfuse Company.

No. You were rebutting your own strawman, because at no point I said that mechs would be "mass-produced".

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Argus

Which also happens to be the name of the Draenei homeworld.

... That makes no sense whatsoever. You're claiming Blizzard based the draenei's technology on the Starcraft's protoss race... because one protoss unit is called "Argus"? That's... stupid. Downright stupid. And that's putting it lightly.

So I'll ask again: where is the source for your claim that Blizzard based the draenei technology off the Starcraft protoss? I want an official statement, not a nonsensical statement that even a tinfoil-hat conspiracy theorist would call lunacy.

[Teriz]

No. You were rebutting your own strawman, because at no point I said that mechs would be "mass-produced".

Yes you did. Unfortunately I have no desire to dig through hundreds of posts to find it, so we'll just leave it at that.

.. That makes no sense whatsoever. You're claiming Blizzard based the draenei's technology on the Starcraft's protoss race... because one protoss unit is called "Argus"? That's... stupid. Downright stupid. And that's putting it lightly.

I guess you didn't go through the entire link. There's also the Argus Crystal, Argus Talisman, Argus Link, etc. All tied to the Protoss. Additionally, the Protoss tech is crystal based, just like the Draenei.

So I'll ask again: where is the source for your claim that Blizzard based the draenei technology off the Starcraft protoss? I want an official statement, not a nonsensical statement that even a tinfoil-hat conspiracy theorist would call lunacy.

What's nonsensical is the lengths you'll go to try to dismiss the various forms of WoW tech that dont appear in the engineering profession.

[Ielenia]

Yes you did.

No, I didn't. And I demand you either back up your claim, or stop making unfounded accusations.

Unfortunately I have no desire to dig through hundreds of posts to find it, so we'll just leave it at that.

In other words: "I know I am making a strawman here, but I won't admit to it, so I'll just play it like a child."

This forum has a search function, Teriz. Learn to use it. Or, like I advised you in the past (which, by the way, I found with the help of the forum's search function):

If you think I will, then be sure to bookmark this, so when I demand to see evidence, you don't go around saying "well, I don't have to show it to you, everyone can go look for it if they want."

If you're going to make such claims, Teriz, man up and be prepared to back it up with quotes, or else shut up.

I guess you didn't go through the entire link. There's also the Argus Crystal, Argus Talisman, Argus Link, etc. All tied to the Protoss.

Still doesn't prove anything. You're making claims that can only be confirmed with an official statement.

Additionally, the Protoss tech is crystal based, just like the Draenei

And? "Crystal-based tech" is not something originally created by Blizzard. Remember the first Superman movies, and his Fortress of Solitude? Entirely crystal-based:

What's nonsensical is the lengths you'll go to try to dismiss the various forms of WoW tech that dont appear in the engineering profession.

It's already widely known you find basic logic "nonsensical", Teriz.

[Rhamses]

Well feel free to come up with a logical way such a tech class could work. I'd love to hear it.

I think @Illidari had a pretty good idea with the Tinker+Archeologist variety of Artificer.

The new Overwatch character combines two different characters. Maybe instead of mechs, an Artificer could go in a more of a steam knight direction using a smorgasbord of abilities from different tech families?

[SirCowdog]

Have you been inside the Vindicaar? How can you even consider it to be technology, since there's no technology anywhere in that ship, being purely magical crystals, magical crystals, magical crystals everywhere, in there!

Just as a point of potential interest, in real life we have crystal-based computers and memory. Google it.

Not taking a stand one way or another on the tinker issue. But just pointing out that "machines" can be based on crystals.

[Deleted]

I love this idea. New ranged class using mail? Yes. Mail intelect tank? Makes sense in this case. Only gnomes and goblins? Also good step, but be prepared for endless crying "why are you forcing me to play this awesome class with this ugly race?".

[Ielenia]

Just as a point of potential interest, in real life we have crystal-based computers and memory. Google it.

Not taking a stand one way or another on the tinker issue. But just pointing out that "machines" can be based on crystals.

I get what you're talking about, but I think there's a difference between "being made with crystals" and "being made of crystals", like the Vindicaar, the Exodar, and those sentry turrets we saw back in Talador, in Warlords of Draenor.