Mega-Thread: 2020 United States General Election

[Felya]

You're crushing their narrative... STAHP!

He did that without even mentioning that Obama emptied out Guantánamo, from 244 inmates, to 41. By all accounts it would have been 0 by now... but, Trump signed an executive order making Guantánamo bay permanent. With Obama’s emptying stoped, with just 1 person releases under Trump... the prison is still going.

He literally blamed Obama for Trump’s executive order.

[GreenGoldSharpie]

Yet Democrats are somehow to blame for the lack of M4A in the US.

I've had this conversation with a few people on this forum. M4A is nothing short of a generational project that would require a buy in by the populace. That's going to include the 35% or so of the country that is supportive of Trump. To be perfectly frank, anyone who would want the current version of the Republican Party to control their healthcare is nuts. It's not just Trump. It's Tom Cotton and Josh Hawley.

[Endus]

Of course not. Even just to get it passed, Republicans would ratfuck it until it barely resembled anything even close to what was originally planned.

It is almost like the ACA is a perfect example of what something like M4A is up against.

You'd really need something more like Canada's system; the federal government establishes standards and requirements, and it's up to provinces (states) to implement them. Dragging your feet or doing a shitty-ass job means you face major federal crackdowns. That framework doesn't really exist in the USA, and States have far more independence. Honestly, the better solution for the USA is probably to take the Tommy Douglas approach rather than the Canadian Federal approach; States that want it should just, like, do it. Fuck the US Federal Government. California can just put in universal healthcare for Californians. Should be particularly easy for States that aren't the headquarters for major insurance providers, because they have no real motive to protect that industry if they can replace it with a better universal alterative; there's not as many job losses or corporate revenues they have to worry about.

[cubby]

When did Canada get a national health service? How about the U.K.?

Now remind me again why the U.S. can't have that?

It's just stupid to act like there is any intention of EVER allowing the U.S. to be anything more than a careful controlled serfdom.

When a supermajority of Americans support a political idea but still can't get that thing implemented, that's a failure of democracy. It's simply not working any longer. The will of the people is overridden.

So your position is that since there's no hope, we should burn it all to the ground? Because if that's not your point, then the only logical choice is a vote for Biden. Because Donald Trump will burn it all to the ground.

[Elegiac]

On the subject of Biden, while Trump was busy playing pretend dictator.

Joe Biden issued a blistering condemnation of President Donald Trump on Tuesday and pledged to offer a break from the "selfishness and fear" that he said have marked Trump's tenure in office and response to protests against racism and police brutality. In a speech in Philadelphia, the presumptive Democratic 2020 presidential nominee addressed systemic racism and empathized with those who are protesting across the nation in the wake of the police killing of George Floyd in Minnesota in ways Trump has not. His remarks offered a striking contrast to Trump that came about 16 hours after peaceful protesters in a park outside the White House were hit with tear gas so that Trump could cross the park and visit St. John's Church for a photo opportunity -- a move that the Episcopal bishop that oversees the church later condemned.

"I won't traffic in fear and division. I won't fan the flames of hate. I'll seek to heal the racial wounds that have long plagued our country, not use them for political gain. I'll do my job and I'll take responsibility -- I won't blame others," Biden said.

It was Biden's first trip outside Delaware in months after the coronavirus pandemic put a halt to in-person campaign activities. It came amid protests in major cities across the nation -- accompanied by looting and property damage in some cities, as well as police violence targeting protesters.

Building on his campaign's core theme that the "soul of the nation" is at stake, Biden made explicit his differences in approach from Trump, who on Monday urged governors to "dominate" protesters, and bragged on Twitter Tuesday morning that "overwhelming force" and "domination" had been on display in the nation's capital. Biden also challenged Americans: "Look at where we are now and think anew: Is this who we are? Is this who we want to be?" "Is this what we want to pass on to our children and grandchildren -- fear, anger, finger-pointing, rather than the pursuit of happiness? Incompetence and anxiety, self-absorption, selfishness? Or do we want to be the America we know we can be, the America we know in our hearts we could be and should be?" Biden said.

The former vice president reserved his harshest words for Trump's trip across Lafayette Square on Monday evening, when police used tear gas and rubber bullets to disperse a peaceful crowd. Trump visited St. John's Church, where he held up a Bible and posed for photographs with staffers and Cabinet members, but did not offer a prayer. "The president held up the Bible at St. John's Church yesterday. I just wish he opened it every once in a while instead of just brandishing it," Biden said. "If he opened it, he could have learned something."

The speech comes at a fraught moment for the nation, after seven days of protests as uncertainty looms over where a country already rocked by a pandemic and the soaring job losses it has forced will go from here. Biden called on Congress to make a "down payment" on what he said would be the "work of a generation" in excising systemic racism, including launching a national police oversight board if he is elected in November. He said lawmakers should outlaw police choke holds, stop transferring "weapons of war" to police departments and increase oversight and accountability of police departments. "It's time to pass legislation that will give true meaning to our constitutional promise of legal protection under the law," Biden said.

Biden has provided a dramatic contrast with Trump in recent days. Both Biden and Trump have spoken with Floyd's family on the phone. Floyd's brother Philonese Floyd said on CNN his talk with Trump was "very brief" while Biden "was talking to me constantly." "I loved his conversation," he said of Biden.

On Monday, as Trump urged governors in a phone call to "dominate" protesters, Biden held a discussion with African American community leaders in Wilmington and a virtual roundtable with the mayors of cities that have seen protests and violence: Atlanta, Chicago, Los Angeles and St. Paul, Minnesota. Biden also directly addressed Floyd's killing, calling it "a wake-up call for our nation" as he began his speech.

"'I can't breathe. I can't breathe.'George Floyd's last words. But they didn't die with him. They're still being heard. They're echoing across this nation," Biden said.

"They speak to a nation where too often just the color of your skin puts your life at risk. They speak to a nation where more than 100,000 people have lost their lives to a virus and 40 million Americans have filed for unemployment -- with a disproportionate number of these deaths and job losses concentrated in the black and minority communities," Biden said. "And they speak to a nation where every day millions of people -- not at the moment of losing their life -- but in the course of living their life -- are saying to themselves, 'I can't breathe.'"

tOtAlLy tHe sAmE, gUyS. /s

[Louisa Bannon]

Divide and conquer. Let's you and he fight.

Two right-wing parties, but hey let's pretend its actually a right one and an actual left party.

You folks keep enumerating why the U.S. is a falsehood. The incrementalism is its death.

Will anyone flat out deny that supposedly a supermajority of Americans support some sort of national health service but that somehow we cannot politically make that happen for whatever reasons any of you care to list? Those two things do not fill well together in a supposed democracy.

[cubby]

I like that some people pretend M4A can be accomplished without addressing the massive social issues this country currently has. It can't.

This is a really important point. The GOP fucked the ACA as hard as they could before they voted en mass against it. And then spent four years trying to repeal it. Any M4A discussion has to include that a significant portion of the United State has consistently voted against their own interests, and won't be convinced otherwise.

That kind of obstacle is difficult to overcome.

[Felya]

On the subject of Biden, while Trump was busy playing pretend dictator.

tOtAlLy tHe sAmE, gUyS. /s

If Biden wasn’t senile, he would also be hiding in a bunker screaming about domination. Damn... that does sound very SNM...

[Edge-]

When a supermajority of Americans support a political idea but still can't get that thing implemented, that's a failure of democracy. It's simply not working any longer. The will of the people is overridden.

Oh, I forgot this bit!

We've been over this before, actually.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52370505

The abstract of M4A enjoys huge popularity.

But do you know what's never enjoyed majority popularity? Any of the actual plans from Sanders or Warren or anyone else.

That's not purely a failure of lawmakers, mind you. That's a failure of the electorate. We like the idea of M4A...until we see the price tag. Until we start thinking about how much our taxes will go up. Yeah, many of the concerns are all drummed up bullshit from anti-M4A groups, but it's not them.

There is no "will of the people" on this, other than "this idea sounds good, but we hate every potential practical application for it". This is nonsensical puff because you want M4A and you think it should all be so easy and you don't understand why there's not more support to make it a reality.

That's a you problem, and I hope you're working with M4A groups to help educate people about it and build support. Because if you're not, you're part of the problem you're complaining about.

[GreenGoldSharpie]

This is a really important point. The GOP fucked the ACA as hard as they could before they voted en mass against it. And then spent four years trying to repeal it. Any M4A discussion has to include that a significant portion of the United State has consistently voted against their own interests, and won't be convinced otherwise.

That kind of obstacle is difficult to overcome.

Eaxctly. What Endus said may work in that taking it state by state is the logical policy. It's always going to come down to reform of the Republican Party and ending their culture war, though. If that doesn't happen the country will be further split.

[cubby]

Divide and conquer. Let's you and he fight.

Two right-wing parties, but hey let's pretend its actually a right one and an actual left party.

You folks keep enumerating why the U.S. is a falsehood. The incrementalism is its death.

Will anyone flat out deny that supposedly a supermajority of Americans support some sort of national health service but that somehow we cannot politically make that happen for whatever reasons any of you care to list? Those two things do not fill well together in a supposed democracy.

So, again, your point is the U.S. has problems. Do you think a second Trump term will help fix those? Or do you think Biden has a better chance at moving towards those goals?

Because that's really all that you should address here. The rest of your litany of points centers around the inherent problems the United States' faces in their current political environment, which has NOTHING to do with the upcoming election. The upcoming election is entirely a referendum on Trump.

[Edge-]

Will anyone flat out deny that supposedly a supermajority of Americans support some sort of national health service but that somehow we cannot politically make that happen for whatever reasons any of you care to list? Those two things do not fill well together in a supposed democracy.

This was a gross misrepresentation of reality when you started shilling it weeks ago. It still is. You're pretty much the living embodiment of that study you linked recently, good job.

[Felya]

Will anyone flat out deny that supposedly a supermajority of Americans support some sort of national health service but that somehow we cannot politically make that happen for whatever reasons any of you care to list? Those two things do not fill well together in a supposed democracy.

Biden has a national healthcare service... ACA provided a national healthcare service... you still prefer Trump.

[Endus]

Divide and conquer. Let's you and he fight.

Two right-wing parties, but hey let's pretend its actually a right one and an actual left party.

Americans don't want a left-wing party. That's why you don't have one.

The two you've got are centrist to center-right, and far-right. Pretending those are the same is deliberate dishonesty.

You folks keep enumerating why the U.S. is a falsehood. The incrementalism is its death.

Democracy is incrementalism. Raging against that is . . . pointless faffing about. Sorry you don't have the fascist dictatorship you'd prefer, I guess?

Will anyone flat out deny that supposedly a supermajority of Americans support some sort of national health service but that somehow we cannot politically make that happen for whatever reasons any of you care to list? Those two things do not fill well together in a supposed democracy.

Because why Americans largely agree that their current health care system is shit, they do not agree on the particulars of what would make for a better system.

As was made excruciatingly clear in the fight over the ACA.

[cubby]

Eaxctly. What Endus said may work in that taking it state by state is the logical policy. It's always going to come down to reform of the Republican Party and ending their culture war, though. If that doesn't happen the country will be further split.

@Endus definitely has what might be the only plausible working solution - the step by step in each state. I know @Skroe has argued that M4A should come from the states, and shouldn't be at the national level at all - obviously that conversation is for another day.

The GOP is now the "burn-it-all-to-the-ground" party. They don't care about people, growth, education, development, or the future of this country. They want their $$$ and they want it now. Nothing else matters. And despite our best efforts, they keep winning elections, with most people voting against their own interests - objectively.

I'm sure there is a way around that, but I don't see it from here, right now at least. To me, the only thing that matters is keeping the United States' from falling off the precipice, and that means voting Trump out of office. Only then can we address the litany of problems we still face.

[Endus]

That's a you problem, and I hope you're working with M4A groups to help educate people about it and build support. Because if you're not, you're part of the problem you're complaining about.

That's also a big part of why I have little patience for people like this.

I have done this kind of thing. I've worked directly with municipal and country governments in framing policy. Not just activism, actually presenting policy guidelines to council. I've volunteered for the campaigns of candidates I supported; not every election, but when I felt I needed to.

If you're sitting on your ass bitching on the Internet rather than getting out there and trying to effect change, somehow, then you don't really want change.

You want to complain.

Those are not the same goddamned thing.

[cubby]

Because why Americans largely agree that their current health care system is shit, they do not agree on the particulars of what would make for a better system.

As was made excruciatingly clear in the fight over the ACA.

And add this to the many problems facing a M4A movement. Even if Americans don't vote against their own interests, there are multiple solutions to the problem, and a number of political establishments that keep a solution from forming.

[Zan15]

But you know what is not trash, Joe Biden and his new hot take on police shooting to wound instead of kill:
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/biden-sugg...201750470.html

Joe Biden doesn't apparently know how guns work. If you’re not prepared to kill someone, you should not even point a loaded gun at them, much less fire it. If you don’t have grounds to shoot to kill, you don’t have grounds to shoot. Hey look I will shoot at this guy's leg, miss and have it ricochet into a bystander near by. Great plan Joe.

Hey look I tried to shoot this guy in the chest, missed and had it ricochet into a bystander near by....

you act like it would only happen if they aimed for the leg.

You actually look at that poll of 835 people? It doesn't actually say how many people identify with which party, just percentages of who they vote for. It's literally trash. I just looked at the 40 poll average, where the first a yougov poll had 36% democrat 27% Republican....not biased at all

.

You know that the poll data is adjusted based on participants right?
Less weight is given to an overweighed section to where democrats responses would be worth 20% less than a republican response right?
You know they do this in every poll, well except for maybe places like Rasmussen if you really want to talk Bias...

[Louisa Bannon]

I figure the only reason any of you even replies to me is that you know this election is going to be a squeaker despite the current polling. I don't know what to tell you, I am 100% never going to vote Biden for the reasons I have enumerated in the other thread.

Merely to counter me, you folks keep listing the endless political reasons why something can't happen. So okay, it can't and won't happen. Why do you still think this is a democracy when its so broken it can't accomplish useful and important things? How do you explain the socialism for the rich and the capitalism for the poor to yourselves? That's some sort of accident? The repeal of Glass-Steagall was an accident, is that correct?

There just comes a time when you have to realize the incrementalism, political deadlock and the overall corruption is insurmountable. That time is actually long passed.

Voting doesn't even matter. The most recent scams were entirely bipartisan.

[TexasRules]

No matter how much you want to deny reality.....everything out there points to Trump losing in November.

- - - Updated - - -



I agree, the democrats need to keep on pushing along as if they're behind in the polls. Complacency or idleness could end up costing them.

But as it is 538 is hinting at a second possible blue wave this coming November based on the current senate polls.

Show me one poll that samples Republicans and democrats within a 3% range of each other. Just 1, without the coveted +/-. If you are going to try using 538 you better look somewhere else. Nothing points to anyone winning or losing in November. If you want to play that game, Joe Biden not knowing how guns work points to him losing in Novemeber. Feel free to give a poll that is reality and not just want you want to read. Reality. Not your hopes and dreams of people telling you what you want to hear...because that worked out real well in 2016 didn't it. Hillary landslide.