9.0 General Discussion

[plz delete account]

??????

It's not.

Turn your screen brightness up.

I'm not turning my screen brightness up simply because you decided to to make bad choices and make something extremely dark.

[Raetary]

I'm not turning my screen brightness up simply because you decided to to make bad choices and make something extremely dark.

"decided to make bad choices"
Sweetheart, i didn't abuse drugs, i colorized a screenshot using photoshop.

The image is dark yes (that's literally what i was going for), but not anywhere near "pitch black".
And i should fucking know, my settings are turned all the way down (sensitive eyes) and i can see everything in the image just fine.

[Halfaheart]

??????

It's not.

Turn your screen brightness up.

My brightness is all the way up and it looks ~almost~ pitch black. Not everybody has 4k monitors.

[Raetary]

Not everybody has 4k monitors.

Lol, i wish.

[plz delete account]

Lol, i wish.

You've had three different people tell you it's nearly pitch black out of six or seven people.
You've made a bad design choice, don't pin it on me.

[Kiivar86]

I wouldn't call it pitch black, but its damn near close enough. I can at least see some details but really only on the right side where there's a bit of a lighter sky to contrast against.

That would be an absolute headache to play with.

[TheFirstOnes]

It's almost pitch black...

It doesn't look pitch black at all to me, but it does look exceptionally trash to travel through. I can understand completely why people would not like this at ALL!

[DemonDays]

I don't like the fact that they are seemingly putting all their eggs on the Torghast basket. If the feature doesn't age well, it is going to be a major bummer. And the whole Covenants thing... It's really shaping up to be Azerite armour 2.0 so far.

Many high end streamers are already starting to say Torghast gets boring after a while.

[tristannarutofan]

no where near pitch black on my monitor and i don't even have brightness on 100%

Ug yall need ti stop reading and stop listening. "Its pitch black" doesnt mean "its 100% black and i cant see anything" it means "its way to dark for me to enjoy this, due to how difficult it os to make out details"

I can see fine in that pic too but i have near perfect vision amd ppl shouldnt have to strain their eyes to play the game

[razorpax]

So the second ones about azeroth and magni right? Who TF is the serpent that feasts on stars?

sounds like the void because they see infinite endings and beginnings but it may honestly be the infinite dragonflight

we defeat moruzond but does that mean we defeated the infinite??

the veil is obviously the veil between life and death

[tristannarutofan]

Many high end streamers are already starting to say Torghast gets boring after a while.

I mean, not all eggs are in that basket as we still have every feauture past expansions have except scenarios and islands

Torghast isnt finished and changes periodically,
Streamers get bored of everything after doing it 4 or 5 times before the expa sion launches, thats why players need to not treat beta like early access.

It def needs to be good since its required for legendaries. But the expansion still has quests, raids and dungeons

[Krakan]

I mean, not all eggs are in that basket as we still have every feauture past expansions have except scenarios and islands

Torghast isnt finished and changes periodically,
Streamers get bored of everything after doing it 4 or 5 times before the expa sion launches, thats why players need to not treat beta like early access.

It def needs to be good since its required for legendaries. But the expansion still has quests, raids and dungeons

Its visions with affixes.. sure it will be kind of neat but it's no mage tower.

Also unless blizz changes their mind you cap out on the resources you get from it fairly easy its going to be a time gate not a skill gate for leggos.

[Vakir]

Many high end streamers are already starting to say Torghast gets boring after a while.

Feels unavoidable with Roguelikes. It has a higher ceiling on replayability just by virtue of adding more powers as an option and more themes/bosses, plus they've confirmed rotating events. Hopefully said rotation will be more common than something like M+ and won't be purely seasonal. They said "a couple of weeks" but it's still rather vague. I think they confirmed the first would be maw hounds with themed powers that rotate?

Either way, improved over the very fixed nature of something like Islands/Visions, the issue being with those that it's so heavily driven by a layout that effectively doesn't change and with powerups that effectively don't matter.

Pretty much how successful something like Torghast can also be long-term is whether class design will be enjoyable. The feedback on melee has been pretty positive. Ranged/casters...not so much.

Its visions with affixes.. sure it will be kind of neat but it's no mage tower.

Also unless blizz changes their mind you cap out on the resources you get from it fairly easy its going to be a time gate not a skill gate for leggos.

Some of those powers are pretty significant class changes relative to something like Affixes, plus generally there's only 2 layouts for Visions, so I think that's a bit simplistic. The actual gameplay loop of Torghast is great and has a lot of variety - the problem lies in how sustainable it is over a 3-4 patch cycle.

It's still probably going to be heavily timegated over skillgated, yeah, just by virtue of the fact that they're probably afraid to lock out large chunks of the population over armor that they're probably banking on to make classes feel "complete." Which in of itself is a new issue - even with effort invested, how legendary is something that has modifiers that they're putting class design behind?

[Krakan]

Feels unavoidable with Roguelikes. It has a higher ceiling on replayability just by virtue of adding more powers as an option and more themes/bosses, plus they've confirmed rotating events. Hopefully said rotation will be more common than something like M+ and won't be purely seasonal. They said "a couple of weeks" but it's still rather vague. I think they confirmed the first would be maw hounds with themed powers that rotate?

Either way, improved over the very fixed nature of something like Islands/Visions, the issue being with those that it's so heavily driven by a layout that effectively doesn't change and with powerups that effectively don't matter.

Pretty much how successful something like Torghast can also be long-term is whether class design will be enjoyable. The feedback on melee has been pretty positive. Ranged/casters...not so much.



Some of those powers are pretty significant class changes relative to something like Affixes, plus generally there's only 2 layouts for Visions, so I think that's a bit simplistic. The actual gameplay loop of Torghast is great and has a lot of variety - the problem lies in how sustainable it is over a 3-4 patch cycle.

It's still probably going to be heavily timegated over skillgated, yeah, just by virtue of the fact that they're probably afraid to lock out large chunks of the population over armor that they're probably banking on to make classes feel "complete." Which in of itself is a new issue - even with effort invested, how legendary is something that has modifiers that they're putting class design behind?

I mean... I think your getting carried away in the hype. I've not seen any really in depth mechanics from the mobs in the tower. It just seems like you pick the best trait orbs you find then farm packs of enemy mobs...

This isn't going to be anywhere near as challenging or involved as the mage tower... a better way to think of them is slightly more challenging isles but with more buff items.

[Vakir]

I mean... I think your getting carried away in the hype. I've not seen any really in depth mechanics from the mobs in the tower. It just seems like you pick the best trait orbs you find then farm packs of enemy mobs...

This isn't going to be anywhere near as challenging or involved as the mage tower... a better way to think of them is slightly more challenging isles but with more buff items.

IDK how hype falls into this, because I'm not calling it spectacular or anything, and I'm still salty it's the only real selling point - just saying that it's a good gameplay loop for one activity. Streamers are bored of it now, but the feedback was good when they first got their hands on it, and it's important to remember that this is without breaking up any of the monotony by having actual other endgame activities available (no M+, no raids, no high end profession work) and there's no rewards in place to make it feel fulfilling. It's inevitable to be boring. Your only other option on Alpha right now is to play through zone stories or entry level difficulty dungeons.

As far as "you pick the best trait and then you farm enemies," I mean...yeah. You just described MMO combat. And roguelike inspiration. Character progression, a pool of enemies with different challenges, and a reward system for using abilities and managing mechanics successfully. This one just has RNG for power selection and layout per roguelike overlap minus permadeath.

The Mage Tower wouldn't be great as a core feature (i.e., a X.0 feature you put in a reveal trailer). There was a finite, scripted pool of encounters. They were challenging, but they also were eventually relatively easy to outgear, and there was no incentive for doing those same activities more than once. Some mechanics overlapped with some others which meant if you did it on one spec that shared it, you were going in with some practice, even running a different class with different tools.

Something with actually good replayability needs to be the next step forward, but I would love to see them do something like it again for a mid-expansion patch - I'd be especially happy if they were truly class focused. Special challenges individualized by class with some kind of iconic class set to show for completing it, especially to offset the bitter taste of losing Tier gear.

[Krakan]

IDK how hype falls into this, because I'm not calling it spectacular or anything, and I'm still salty it's the only real selling point - just saying that it's a good gameplay loop for one activity. Streamers are bored of it now, but the feedback was good when they first got their hands on it, and it's important to remember that this is without breaking up any of the monotony by having actual other endgame activities available (no M+, no raids, no high end profession work) and there's no rewards in place to make it feel fulfilling. It's inevitable to be boring. Your only other option on Alpha right now is to play through zone stories or entry level difficulty dungeons.

As far as "you pick the best trait and then you farm enemies," I mean...yeah. You just described MMO combat. And roguelike inspiration. Character progression, a pool of enemies with different challenges, and a reward system for using abilities and managing mechanics successfully. This one just has RNG for power selection and layout per roguelike overlap minus permadeath.

The Mage Tower wouldn't be great as a core feature (i.e., a X.0 feature you put in a reveal trailer). There was a finite, scripted pool of encounters. They were challenging, but they also were eventually relatively easy to outgear, and there was no incentive for doing those same activities more than once. Some mechanics overlapped with some others which meant if you did it on one spec that shared it, you were going in with some practice, even running a different class with different tools.

Something with actually good replayability needs to be the next step forward, but I would love to see them do something like it again for a mid-expansion patch - I'd be especially happy if they were truly class focused. Special challenges individualized by class with some kind of iconic class set to show for completing it, especially to offset the bitter taste of losing Tier gear.

I don't think you can make interesting repeatable content in wow that isn't group play and those avenues are rather exhausted. I won't lie I would prefer to see another dungeon or two rather then what development time torghast took.

I think one time skill challenges like the mage tower offer a lot more in most cases ( some mage towers were mindlessly easy) offer a more interesting experience then a more bland replayable content.

[Vakir]

I don't think you can make interesting repeatable content in wow that isn't group play and those avenues are rather exhausted. I won't lie I would prefer to see another dungeon or two rather then what development time torghast took.

I think one time skill challenges like the mage tower offer a lot more in most cases ( some mage towers were mindlessly easy) offer a more interesting experience then a more bland replayable content.

Depends how you manage the replayability. This is personal preference based, obviously, but I've sunk hundreds of hours into something like Binding of Isaac. The individual characters (minus a couple of oddballs) aren't that definitively different in how they play, and there's only a handful of monsters, even in expansions, that have some minor variations that make up only looking like there's a bunch of them. There's like 8 tilesets, and even then, there's an upper limit of how far you can go.

But enough power variation makes each run interesting by virtue of having interesting combinations. Theoretically mixing that with class design that's competent could generate variety, and having your character suddenly be overpowered in unique ways can be fun if they throw challenges at you that aren't outright cheating.

The key is whether class design will be competent in the end to make those combinations enjoyable, though. And that's a big if. But ultimately, you're still describing an MMO. Islands failed because they had 3 static layouts per week with the only variety being in spawn points, only 3 fixed difficulties, and were devoid of any actual reward systems making them enticing to do. Especially when they went through so many early iterations where nobody wanted to bother whatsoever because it was effectively broken in terms of how little you got for your time invested.

2 more dungeon variations would be nice, and it's telling how much they've shrunk from expansion to expansion, but ultimately even at very high keys, once you know the mechanics of a run, that run goes the same if you know how to manage the week's and the season's affix combinations. Plus the whole "a timer is not difficulty" argument, but that's a whole other can of worms.

[DemonDays]

Feels unavoidable with Roguelikes. It has a higher ceiling on replayability just by virtue of adding more powers as an option and more themes/bosses, plus they've confirmed rotating events. Hopefully said rotation will be more common than something like M+ and won't be purely seasonal. They said "a couple of weeks" but it's still rather vague. I think they confirmed the first would be maw hounds with themed powers that rotate?

Either way, improved over the very fixed nature of something like Islands/Visions, the issue being with those that it's so heavily driven by a layout that effectively doesn't change and with powerups that effectively don't matter.

Pretty much how successful something like Torghast can also be long-term is whether class design will be enjoyable. The feedback on melee has been pretty positive. Ranged/casters...not so much.



Some of those powers are pretty significant class changes relative to something like Affixes, plus generally there's only 2 layouts for Visions, so I think that's a bit simplistic. The actual gameplay loop of Torghast is great and has a lot of variety - the problem lies in how sustainable it is over a 3-4 patch cycle.

It's still probably going to be heavily timegated over skillgated, yeah, just by virtue of the fact that they're probably afraid to lock out large chunks of the population over armor that they're probably banking on to make classes feel "complete." Which in of itself is a new issue - even with effort invested, how legendary is something that has modifiers that they're putting class design behind?

There's also the issue of tilesets and enemy types. It looks the same. Every room looks the same.

Visions became insanely boring after like the 5th one? Then it just became a time gate waiting for the OP tech tree powers to kick in. Then 5 mask was a complete joke.

So far we've seen no new world content. No improvements to any other systems.

Torghast just seems like the only new thing we're getting. All their eggs in one basket. Then there's the issue of Legendaries coming from it - so it will 100% be time-gated.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean, not all eggs are in that basket as we still have every feauture past expansions have except scenarios and islands

Torghast isnt finished and changes periodically,
Streamers get bored of everything after doing it 4 or 5 times before the expa sion launches, thats why players need to not treat beta like early access.

It def needs to be good since its required for legendaries. But the expansion still has quests, raids and dungeons

Every feature from past expansions? Wtf are you talking about?

Dungeons? The same.
Raids? The same.
Class Design? Still shit.
WQs? Zero improvements, boring as fuck.
Mythic+?

This is an extremely "feature" light expansion and we've not seen a huge amount of innovation or improvement to EXISTING systems and game modes.

[Sondrelk]

I don't think you can make interesting repeatable content in wow that isn't group play and those avenues are rather exhausted. I won't lie I would prefer to see another dungeon or two rather then what development time torghast took.

I think one time skill challenges like the mage tower offer a lot more in most cases ( some mage towers were mindlessly easy) offer a more interesting experience then a more bland replayable content.

That sounds like a rather defeatist attitude. All content gets boring if you keep playing it for long enough.
However, this is by no means something that should be understood as attempting to make new content being pointless. Torghast is already leaps and bounds more interesting than Islands, which in turn was if nothing else, more replayable than Mage towers. Torghast might end up bombing terribly after the initial hype wears off like what happened with Islands, but it will hopefully lead to Blizzard gathering data on what makes that system fun and rewarding, and the next iteration will most likely be better than the previous.

On the flipside, if Blizzard just scrapped it in favor of 2 or more extra dungeons then there is little to learn. Dungeons are already about as polished as they can get, barring massive shakeups to the core formula, same with raids. Torghast, and its predecessor expansion asides are more fascinating because it is in essence Blizzard attempting to create one more avenue of endgame content.
We have PvP in Arenas, Battlegrounds and even War Mode. There is outdoor content in the form of World Quests and regular endgame quests. There is instanced content like Dungeons and M+, and raids of varying difficulties. And occasionally there are events.
However, Torghast, as well as Islands, Warfronts, Mage Tower and the like are all attempts at further filling the endgame with more content. And with each iteration we get something better in one way or the other. And with enough iterations we might evetually end up with something like Dungeons or Raids, content which will always be in an expansion, and which gets small refinements each new expansion.

[Makabreska]

Many high end streamers are already starting to say Torghast gets boring after a while.

1. Everything get's boring after a while

2. Most of them just spams it on Alpha. So ye, no shit they are getting bored.