9.0 General Discussion

[Varodoc]

I'm not saying they're right but I think the viewpoint is Arthas chose his path, Sylvanas was forced into it.

Despite the fact that Sylvanas could have chosen not to be an evil genocidal maniac but she might have also been driven crazy from having her soul ripped out of it's body then being forced to watch the destruction of her homeland. Of course, then you can make the same argument for Arthas since we was forced into an impossible situation where he had to murder his people and became so desperate he sold his soul to "save" his homeland.

So, really, they're both evil assholes.

Arthas was also forced into it, since Kel'thuzad said that he was meant to be Ner'zhul's chosen before the Scourge was even born.

Kel'Thuzad: Of course. He chose you to be his champion long before the Scourge even began.

Then again, Sylvanas fanboys are known for their selective memory and flawed arguments.

[boyzma]

Arthas was also forced into it, since Kel'thuzad said that he was meant to be Ner'zhul's chosen before the Scourge was even born.



Then again, Sylvanas fanboys are known for their selective memory and flawed arguments.

So bitter against anyone with a different point of view than yours. Just chill...and btw I've always been a Sylvanas fan...sorry.

[gunner_recall]

Arthas was also forced into it, since Kel'thuzad said that he was meant to be Ner'zhul's chosen before the Scourge was even born.



Then again, Sylvanas fanboys are known for their selective memory and flawed arguments.

I wouldn't say Arthas was forced into it in the same way that Sylvanas was, though. The Lich King definitely had a hand in the path Arthas went down but ultimately he made the choice to follow that path. He could have walked away at Stratholme, he could have returned home after the cleansing, he could have left that cave when Muradin asked him to. He made those choices.

Sylvanas did the same thing. She didn't have to create the blight, she didn't have to burn Teldrassil, she didn't have to make a deal with the Valk'yr or the Jailer. She made those choices just the same as Arthas made those choices.

They both had a path laid out before them and they could have walked away but they kept following the path. You could argue they're in a MacBeth situation

All causes shall give way. I am in blood
Stepped in so far that, should I wade no more,
Returning were as tedious as go o'er.

but ultimately they made those choices. Dunno if they should go to the Maw for that necessarily since the Maw seems like it's for the souls who failed in Revendreth, but they both have done horrible things.

I'm pretty sure we agree on this, though.

[Varodoc]

So bitter against anyone with a different point of view than yours. Just chill...and btw I've always been a Sylvanas fan...sorry.

No, bitter against people who are obviously biased and spread misinformation. Apologies accepted.

[Doodledabble]

Not initially. It's that she's backed into a corner that she does it. While she is willing to kill N'zoth, the 8.3 dialog shows her saying she'd prefer having him locked up. Although, does anyone know where this dialog plays in-game? I don't think I've ever encountered it.

A majority of that dialogue comes from Azshara after the fight with Xanesh once we free her from her torturer. If you stick around and don't immediately head to Vex she gives us the dagger and tells us she's heading for the true throne.

[huth]

Not initially. It's that she's backed into a corner that she does it. While she is willing to kill N'zoth, the 8.3 dialog shows her saying she'd prefer having him locked up. Although, does anyone know where this dialog plays in-game? I don't think I've ever encountered it.

Her plan was to release him so she could kill him. She underestimated us, which is why the second part didn't work. She prefers him locked up to him being free to do what he wants, but she still planned to release him from the start.

[Sondrelk]

I wouldn't say Arthas was forced into it in the same way that Sylvanas was, though. The Lich King definitely had a hand in the path Arthas went down but ultimately he made the choice to follow that path. He could have walked away at Stratholme, he could have returned home after the cleansing, he could have left that cave when Muradin asked him to. He made those choices.

Sylvanas did the same thing. She didn't have to create the blight, she didn't have to burn Teldrassil, she didn't have to make a deal with the Valk'yr or the Jailer. She made those choices just the same as Arthas made those choices.

They both had a path laid out before them and they could have walked away but they kept following the path. You could argue they're in a MacBeth situation



but ultimately they made those choices. Dunno if they should go to the Maw for that necessarily since the Maw seems like it's for the souls who failed in Revendreth, but they both have done horrible things.

I'm pretty sure we agree on this, though.

I would still say that Arthas is more deserving of redemption at this point though. Because he wasnt given an explicit choice to turn away from his path where he actually just chose straight up evil. The closest is when he chooses to pick up Frostmourne since that is mostly for the purpose of revenge.

On hte flipside Sylvanas had no choice initially, but then got free, decided to continue being if not evil at least morally shady. Then when Arthas was defeated and she had gotten her vengeance at a cost at the very least she decided to keep being evil, and in fact double down.


In short: Arthas was a slow descent into villainy characterized by him making choices that were more and more questionable ending with him losing his soul ot Frostmourne. Sylvanas was enslaved, then freed, but decided to in a sense become more evil as time went on with no good justification beyond narcissism.

[Ersula]

Did you forget the part where she goaded us into bringing the Heart to Nazjatar already? Which she explicitly had a deal with Azshara to do?

If you read my whole post instead of just the first sentence you'd have the answer to that. Lorethmar & Jaina contributed more to his freedom than Sylvanas did. Even before taking into account that N'zoth was doing far more damage from his prison than he ultimately did after being released.

[huth]

If you read my whole post instead of just the first sentence you'd have the answer to that. Lorethmar & Jaina contributed more to his freedom than Sylvanas did. Even before taking into account that N'zoth was doing far more damage from his prison than he ultimately did after being released.

I did, and all you did was asserting that they are more responsible without any actual evidence. Without Sylvanas, they wouldn't even have encountered him, and they certainly didn't release him on purpose.

It was Sylvanas' and Azshara's plan that ended us up in the Circle of Stars, not Lorthemar's or Jaina's.

[Sondrelk]

If you read my whole post instead of just the first sentence you'd have the answer to that. Lorethmar & Jaina contributed more to his freedom than Sylvanas did. Even before taking into account that N'zoth was doing far more damage from his prison than he ultimately did after being released.

Yes, the people manipulated into going there and defeating the person who plans on conquering the world and has the resources to do so are responsible for being manipulated. Faultless victim blaming there.

[Kereberus]

So I got into the beta yesterday. Wasn't there suppose to be a feature which showed quests on the world map?

[gunner_recall]

I would still say that Arthas is more deserving of redemption at this point though. Because he wasnt given an explicit choice to turn away from his path where he actually just chose straight up evil. The closest is when he chooses to pick up Frostmourne since that is mostly for the purpose of revenge.

On hte flipside Sylvanas had no choice initially, but then got free, decided to continue being if not evil at least morally shady. Then when Arthas was defeated and she had gotten her vengeance at a cost at the very least she decided to keep being evil, and in fact double down.


In short: Arthas was a slow descent into villainy characterized by him making choices that were more and more questionable ending with him losing his soul ot Frostmourne. Sylvanas was enslaved, then freed, but decided to in a sense become more evil as time went on with no good justification beyond narcissism.

I mean...I also think Arthas is deserving of a redemption arc because he has an actual story. He did everything he did because he thought it was the right thing to do, until he ultimately became the Lich King's champion. Sylvanas did the things she did because ???

Sylvanas's story arc was a failure of storytelling.


However...Arthas still did really shitty things, even when he was a kid. He constantly disobeyed his parents, he wasn't interested in being faithful to the Light or a paladin and was much more interested in just learning how to fight. Imagine how differently it could have been if Terenas had encouraged his military acumen instead of forcing him to sit for hours in meditation with Uther. Imagine how differently Stratholme might have turned out. But I guess that's all just pointless speculation at this point.

[Sondrelk]

So I got into the beta yesterday. Wasn't there suppose to be a feature which showed quests on the world map?

There is a new feature that shows the direction of quest objectives in the regualr UI instead of just the map or minimap. There is also now differentiation between "important" quests that are needed for whatever endgame stuff, or sidequests which are not.

Couldnt possibly be one of these two, could it?

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I mean...I also think Arthas is deserving of a redemption arc because he has an actual story. He did everything he did because he thought it was the right thing to do, until he ultimately became the Lich King's champion. Sylvanas did the things she did because ???

Sylvanas's story arc was a failure of storytelling.


However...Arthas still did really shitty things, even when he was a kid. He constantly disobeyed his parents, he wasn't interested in being faithful to the Light or a paladin and was much more interested in just learning how to fight. Imagine how differently it could have been if Terenas had encouraged his military acumen instead of forcing him to sit for hours in meditation with Uther. Imagine how differently Stratholme might have turned out. But I guess that's all just pointless speculation at this point.

The failure of Arthas was one of pride. He wanted to be the best partially for himself but also because he wanted to be the best possible king for his people. This caused him to make many questionable decisions that maybe could have been avoided.

He definitely did evil stuff though.


That being said arguing whether he will get a redemption or not is almost pointless. Becausse the Uther animated short showed him being unjustly thrown into the Maw there is no other logical way for the story to go but giving him some form of redemption.

[gunner_recall]

That being said arguing whether he will get a redemption or not is almost pointless. Becausse the Uther animated short showed him being unjustly thrown into the Maw there is no other logical way for the story to go but giving him some form of redemption.

Yeah, that's true. And I don't think anyone is saying Arthas wasn't evil.

[Alanar]

A majority of that dialogue comes from Azshara after the fight with Xanesh once we free her from her torturer. If you stick around and don't immediately head to Vex she gives us the dagger and tells us she's heading for the true throne.

What ever that is. Bfa story or speculations have been super vague until it ends in frustration.

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So bitter against anyone with a different point of view than yours. Just chill...and btw I've always been a Sylvanas fan...sorry.

Dont feel bad man thats Varadoc for you. One day he is the greatest high elf fan other day he spits on people who are fans and turns into void elf fan. He is anything but transparant and posts in every damn thread. Look at hes amount of posts in 1 year.

Would't waste time.on him he only respons when he thinks he has an argument or when it suits him. Cant take him serious. He doesnt even dare to reponse back cus he knows

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Yeah, that's true. And I don't think anyone is saying Arthas wasn't evil.

He was but he certainly didn't have that kind of thing before Stratholme and the Scourge.

[TheFirstOnes]

Didn't Azshara just want N'Zoth killed? She never specified wanting him released, I don't think. She only said she was going to kill N'Zoth with the dagger. The easiest way of doing so would be VIA killing him in his prison.

However, we entered, therefore fucking up her plans.

Oh, and need I remind you that when Azshara says "True throne", she just means she'll take total reign over the seas. That's it. Cause, prior to his release, N'Zoth was the God of the Deep.

[gunner_recall]

He was but he certainly didn't have that kind of thing before Stratholme and the Scourge.

I mean...he wasn't AS evil, but he was still a pretty shitty person. Not Maw shitty but he was still kind of a dick, and being a paladin didn't make him any less of a dick.

Nowhere near as bad as someone like Garrosh, tho.

Edit: Hell, I would argue that he's not even nearly as evil as they turned Sylvanas into

[TheFirstOnes]

So, if Azshara became the Goddess of the Deep, that would be cool asf.

[Varodoc]

Dont feel bad man thats Varadoc for you. One day he is the greatest high elf fan other day he spits on people who are fans and turns into void elf fan. He is anything but transparant and posts in every damn thread. Look at hes amount of posts in 1 year.

Would't waste time.on him he only respons when he thinks he has an argument or when it suits him. Cant take him serious. He doesnt even dare to reponse back cus he knows

What are you even talking about? I've been asking for void elves to get fair skin tones since 2017, I've never cared about high elves, I've even been muted twice for shitting on high elf fanboys. Your idea that I no-life this forum is also hilarious, since barely 6000 posts in 3 years is not noteworthy at all. Your attempts at insulting me have miserably failed, then again wit is not the forte of Sylvanas fanboys such as yourself.

But please do keep talking about me, it pleases me that I live inside your head rent-free