9.0 General Discussion

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Turalyon getting "corrupted" or mislead by Lothraxion is pretty clearly getting set up, but I don't see where the "LOL BAD ALLERIA" is coming from. When they made her a boss in the Vision that was a big hint that that's not going to actually happen in the story.

More than likely Alleria will stay good to create drama for when Turalyon becomes an antagonist of some sort. This was already set up with the drama between them involving Xe'ra as well as their thematic power difference.

No I think Alleria being bad is still in the cards, just not the way we saw in the vision and thats the price you pay for delving into the Void so easily and often.

[Sondrelk]

Turalyon getting "corrupted" or mislead by Lothraxion is pretty clearly getting set up, but I don't see where the "LOL BAD ALLERIA" is coming from. When they made her a boss in the Vision that was a big hint that that's not going to actually happen in the story.

More than likely Alleria will stay good to create drama for when Turalyon becomes an antagonist of some sort. This was already set up with the drama between them involving Xe'ra as well as their thematic power difference.

Alleria turning is heavily foreshadowed actually. She specifically says that all that anchors her ot reality is Turalyon and Arathor, one of them kicking the bucket could send her over the edge, and given Turalyon is first in line to turn in the hypothetical "Tyrannical Light" storyline Alleria is an obvious pick for next target.

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Who said that? Certainly not me.



It remains to be seen if Lothraxion is still a double agent or has renounced his loyalties to the Nathrezim.

Pretty sure he is still loyal to the Nathrezim, unless of course there is a second lightforged Dreadlord kicking around somewhere. The hidden piece of text specifically mentions a Dreadlord that has infilitrated the light, and indeed done it so well noone even suspects he could be a spy.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

The Natherzeim playing Chess 4.0

[Varodoc]

Alleria turning is heavily foreshadowed actually. She specifically says that all that anchors her ot reality is Turalyon and Arathor, one of them kicking the bucket could send her over the edge, and given Turalyon is first in line to turn in the hypothetical "Tyrannical Light" storyline Alleria is an obvious pick for next target.

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Pretty sure he is still loyal to the Nathrezim, unless of course there is a second lightforged Dreadlord kicking around somewhere. The hidden piece of text specifically mentions a Dreadlord that has infilitrated the light, and indeed done it so well noone even suspects he could be a spy.

Yet the Nathrezim are not omniscient. They say Lothraxion has "hidden so well within the Light ranks that no one suspects him". But what if they are wrong, and Lothraxion has actually forsaken his former loyalties to fully devote himself to the Light?

Especially as Blizzard is pushing the narrative that Xe'ra was indoctrinating people with the Light, as she tried to forcefully turn Illidan into her minion.

My theory: Lothraxion originally wanted to become lightforged to better infiltrate the ranks of the Light. But he underestimated the gravity of the lightforging process. After he became lightforged, his mind was warped and he devoted himself to following Xe'ra's directive, completely abandoning the Nathrezim.

But the Nathrezim wouldn't know this because, as I said, they are not omniscient. From their perspective, Lothraxion is just doing a really good job at infiltration. They are oblivious to the truth.

Point is, it remains to be seen whether Lothraxion is still a double agent of the Nathrezim or a genuine fanatic of the Light.

Alleria turning is heavily foreshadowed actually. She specifically says that all that anchors her ot reality is Turalyon and Arathor, one of them kicking the bucket could send her over the edge, and given Turalyon is first in line to turn in the hypothetical "Tyrannical Light" storyline Alleria is an obvious pick for next target.

I am not a mother or father, but I know that there's nothing worse for a mother than losing her child. Especially in the case of Alleria, who has not seen her son in thousands of years.

If Arator's death drove Alleria insane, I would not blame her at all, nor would I even consider her mad. In fact I would pity her a lot and find her one of the most relatable characters in the whole Warcraft franchise. No mother deserves to lose their child.

[huth]

The Natherzeim playing Chess 4.0

The Nathrezim invented chess just to add dimensions to it.

[Sondrelk]

Yet the Nathrezim are not omniscient. They say Lothraxion has "hidden so well within the Light ranks that no one suspects him". But what if they are wrong, and Lothraxion has actually forsaken his former loyalties to fully devote himself to the Light?

Especially as Blizzard is pushing the narrative that Xe'ra was indoctrinating people with the Light, as she tried to forcefully turn Illidan into her minion.

My theory: Lothraxion originally wanted to become lightforged to better infiltrate the ranks of the Light. But he underestimated the gravity of the lightforging process. After he became lightforged, his mind was warped and he devoted himself to following Xe'ra's directive, completely abandoning the Nathrezim.

But the Nathrezim wouldn't know this because, as I said, they are not omniscient. From their perspective, Lothraxion is just doing a really good job at infiltration. They are oblivious to the truth.

Point is, it remains to be seen whether Lothraxion is still a double agent of the Nathrezim or a genuine fanatic of the Light.


I am not a mother or father, but I know that there's nothing worse for a mother than losing her child. Especially in the case of Alleria, who has not seen her son in thousands of years.

If Arator's death drove Alleria insane, I would not blame her at all, nor would I even consider her mad. In fact I would pity her a lot and find her one of the most relatable characters in the whole Warcraft franchise. No mother deserves to lose their child.

Lothraxion possibly having turned for real seems like reaching, I have argued on other threads and I will repeat it here, that while it is certainly possibly that he has turned I somehow doubt WoW will make its story that layered and complex.

Though then again, I guess a twist where the Nathrezim underestimated the Light would be fascinating, though it would have to make the Light more layered than needed I imagine, seeing as it has already lightforged quite a few characters, none of whom seem to completely lose themselves.


As for Alleria, the idea that she loses her mind because of having to see her family die is the point, yes. Not to mention that there isnt really that much point to Alleria that would specifically require her to be around when we already have the Void Elves.

[Varodoc]

Lothraxion possibly having turned for real seems like reaching, I have argued on other threads and I will repeat it here, that while it is certainly possibly that he has turned I somehow doubt WoW will make its story that layered and complex.

Though then again, I guess a twist where the Nathrezim underestimated the Light would be fascinating, though it would have to make the Light more layered than needed I imagine, seeing as it has already lightforged quite a few characters, none of whom seem to completely lose themselves.


As for Alleria, the idea that she loses her mind because of having to see her family die is the point, yes. Not to mention that there isnt really that much point to Alleria that would specifically require her to be around when we already have the Void Elves.

Alleria is like Sylvanas. She represents 99% of the Void elf presence in the story and is by far their figurehead. Just as Sylvanas was one of the first free-willed undead, Alleria is the FIRST Void elf in history. That already makes her special. But if she died, she would have to be replaced by Magister Umbric.

The problem is that Magister Umbric right now is severely underdeveloped and does not even have a unique model, so Blizzard better give him some spotlight soon if they are planning to replace Alleria with him.

I also want to say that it would be very sad for either Alleria or Turalyon to die now. I mean, Blizzard has been teasing their return SINCE 2004, they updated the loading screen tips THRICE to foreshadow their return... and then they just kill them off a few expansions after their return to the story? Very sad and disappointing. Alleria and Turalyon deserve much better.

What is the first thing a new player sees upon entering Stormwind, the main Alliance player hub in the game? The statues of the legendary Alliance heroes from the Second War. Alleria and Turalyon might have only a few dozen minutes of screentime in WoW, but they are figures rooted in the story of Warcraft as a whole.

We should kill Khadgar instead, he's an annoying paltry mage and no one likes his puns.

[TheFirstOnes]

Who said that? Certainly not me.



It remains to be seen if Lothraxion is still a double agent or has renounced his loyalties to the Nathrezim.

You kinda did say that tbh.

"It remains to be seen if Lothraxion is still a double agent or has renounced his loyalties to the Nathrezim." Idk man. That book seemed VERY specific. Also, the Light can be EASILY manipulated. Make Lothraxion act against his allies so he can "serve" and reach the higher ranks within the Light's forces, and BAM...

You have the perfect way of taking over the cosmic force of the Light. Doesn't help that they're preoccupied with other shit anyway.

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"They say Lothraxion has "hidden so well within the Light ranks that no one suspects him". But what if they are wrong, and Lothraxion has actually forsaken his former loyalties to fully devote himself to the Light?" Considering almost EVERYTHING the Dreadlord's have done has borne fruit...

I doubt it. Though, I do suspect the Void Lords know about the Dreadlords' plan.

[Varodoc]

You kinda did say that tbh.

"It remains to be seen if Lothraxion is still a double agent or has renounced his loyalties to the Nathrezim." Idk man. That book seemed VERY specific. Also, the Light can be EASILY manipulated. Make Lothraxion act against his allies so he can "serve" and reach the higher ranks within the Light's forces, and BAM...

You have the perfect way of taking over the cosmic force of the Light. Doesn't help that they're preoccupied with other shit anyway.

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"They say Lothraxion has "hidden so well within the Light ranks that no one suspects him". But what if they are wrong, and Lothraxion has actually forsaken his former loyalties to fully devote himself to the Light?" Considering almost EVERYTHING the Dreadlord's have done has borne fruit...

I doubt it. Though, I do suspect the Void Lords know about the Dreadlords' plan.

Anyone can be manipulated, including the Nathrezim. The Lich King and Arthas outsmarted Tichondrius and his master Archimonde, as they plotted the Legion's downfall at Mount Hyjal, for example. Tichondrius himself died as a result of this, as Arthas told Illidan about the Skull of Gul'dan, and the rest is history. Illidan himself single-handedly blew apart the world of Nathreza. This once magical paradise of the Nathrezim has been torn asunder and reduced to a ruined wasteland ala Outlands. As well, Nathreza was so saturated with energy that ALL the Nathrezim caught in the explosion were annihilated for good.

Furthermore, Lothraxion's intervention at the battle of the Priest Conclave resulted in the defeat and final annihilation of Balnazzar:

When Balnazzar attacked the Conclave of Netherlight Temple, the Knights of the Silver Hand arrived to aid them in its defense. As Balnazzar began to open countless portals to summon in more demons and finish them off, Lothraxion and reinforcements from the Army of the Light arrived and helped the Highlord and the High Priest to defeat Balnazzar.[4][9]

Lothraxion is thus guilty of causing the death of one of his own -- and, as we all know, it is forbidden for one of the Nathrezim to kill another. Even Varimathras did not kill Balnazzar, as the two were secretly in league with one another against Sylvanas.

There's also the fact that Lothraxion had already earned the trust of Xe'ra and her forces by the time of Legion, so you can't even say "he needed to sacrifice Balnazzar to prove his worth to the Light". Lothraxion is in big trouble with the Dreadlords. It is made clear that it is forbidden for the Nathrezim to kill one of their own, Lothraxion just broke the law. And tell me, what happens to those who break the law?

You are also forgetting the fact that the Nathrezim are very arrogant. They constantly underestimate their enemies. Mal'ganis underestimated Arthas. Tichondrius underestimated Illidan. The Dreadlord Brothers underestimated Sylvanas. The author of that document could have very well underestimated the power of the Light, just as Lothraxion.

Considering almost EVERYTHING the Dreadlord's have done has borne fruit...

Never forget that many Dreadlords devoted their careers to ensuring the Legion's success. And the Legion has been crushed. People like Tichondrius, Mephistroth, and Varimathras utterly FAILED.

[Syegfryed]

They have to make it fit and right now is the first time dragon lore has been expanded on in a while

Dragon race could be like worgen with a base race form and then a dragon travel form

they cn easily make it fit.

Even if it will not happen cause fuck me, but Dragonmaw orcs becoming like a worgen counterpart with humans would be insanely awesome, orcs who can transform into drakonids/weredragons.

[Nagawithlegs]

Lothraxion NOT being a sleeper agent is pointless from a narrative perspective. Why even put that into the book unless it was a narrative hook for something that happens later, like Turalyon being led astray? Sure, he could have been a sleeper agent turned good, but this new information would serve no point then aside from "we needed to say something about the Light in the Nathrezim book".

I can see Lothraxion originally not being planned or written to be evil, but if they want to make Turalyon an antagonist for an understandable reason (dreadlord trickery) they absolutely are going to use Lothraxion as a catalyst for it.

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As someone mentioned Arator, I actually wonder if the eventual Light vs Void expansion was being seeded in Legion (as well as Shadowlands) by the Alleria and Turalyon stuff, as well as Arator likely being the "Child of Light and Shadow". On first glance it just seems like an obvious "Opposite Magic" thing but now that it looks like Turalyon was brought back to start massive amounts of drama...

[Redzonetode]

Big PTR update, about 900mb. Looks like the new void elf/blood elf eye option is added in, along with the ability to view the Raid Armor in the transmog/set tab. All but the Night Fae back cloaks are viewable as well.

[Varodoc]

Lothraxion NOT being a sleeper agent is pointless from a narrative perspective. Why even put that into the book

To show that the Nathrezim are not infallible. Just as the Nathrezim manipulated many in the past, so too they were manipulated by Xe'ra the Prime Naaru. What is so far-fetched here? Are you saying that ONLY the Nathrezim are allowed to successfully manipulate people?

They don't need Lothraxion to make Turalyon a good villain. Here, I'll write a solid outline for an "Evil" Turalyon:

The Fourth War ravaged the Alliance, and especially Stormwind. As the city is completely filled with poverty, crime, and overpopulation from the refugee masses coming from Teldrassil, Turalyon needs to find ways to ensure the stability of the Alliance. To this end, he has started retaking many former holdings of the Alliance in Lordaeron, such as Alterac, Fenris Keep, and Southshore. He is also attempting to find a way to cleanse Lordaeron of its blight. While Turalyon genuinely wants to find the food, water, resources, and space that his people need to survive, the Horde sees this as acts of aggression, as the Forsaken believe Turalyon is trespassing into their rightful lands, taking advantage of the power vacuum left in Lordaeron after Sylvanas abandoned them. However Turalyon won't have any of their BS, because children are starving in the streets of Stormwind and he absolutely needs the vast farmlands of Lordaeron for resources, so he breaks the armistice and marches on the Forsaken, starting a new conflict in the EK. He is backed in this by the other Alliance leaders, who agree that the Alliance absolutely needs to find new resources, as well as by the living survivors of Lordaeron, who rally behind one of the last living nobles from the land.

There, done. Turalyon reopens conflict, becomes an antagonistic force for the Horde, someone they can see as a "villain" (but what is a villain if not a HERO of their own story?), without any BS involving Lothraxion.

And this, by the way, is already set up in the game. Turalyon mentions how he wants to reclaim the former holdings of the Alliance for protection purposes.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Lothraxion NOT being a sleeper agent is pointless from a narrative perspective. Why even put that into the book unless it was a narrative hook for something that happens later, like Turalyon being led astray? Sure, he could have been a sleeper agent turned good, but this new information would serve no point then aside from "we needed to say something about the Light in the Nathrezim book".

I can see Lothraxion originally not being planned or written to be evil, but if they want to make Turalyon an antagonist for an understandable reason (dreadlord trickery) they absolutely are going to use Lothraxion as a catalyst for it.

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As someone mentioned Arator, I actually wonder if the eventual Light vs Void expansion was being seeded in Legion (as well as Shadowlands) by the Alleria and Turalyon stuff, as well as Arator likely being the "Child of Light and Shadow". On first glance it just seems like an obvious "Opposite Magic" thing but now that it looks like Turalyon was brought back to start massive amounts of drama...

Drama in relation to any Lightbound coming in.

[Razion]

The Nathrezim invented chess just to add dimensions to it.

A Nathrezim woodcarver, slaving away using the teensiest tiniest itty-bittiest little knives to carefully carve a chess set small enough for humans...

... that's kind of adorable?

[huth]

Lothraxion possibly having turned for real seems like reaching, I have argued on other threads and I will repeat it here, that while it is certainly possibly that he has turned I somehow doubt WoW will make its story that layered and complex.

Though then again, I guess a twist where the Nathrezim underestimated the Light would be fascinating, though it would have to make the Light more layered than needed I imagine, seeing as it has already lightforged quite a few characters, none of whom seem to completely lose themselves.

If it happened, it should be by accident. Like the Light thinking it took Lothraxion from the Legion only, not realising there was another level to it.

Now that i think of it, though... could Lothraxion be what the "The light has made a pact with the enemy of all" is referring to?

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A Nathrezim woodcarver, slaving away using the teensiest tiniest itty-bittiest little knives to carefully carve a chess set small enough for humans...

... that's kind of adorable?

They're Nathrezim. Obviously they'd just manipulate somebody else into building it for them, probably involving a bunch of cursed carving tools.

[Sondrelk]

If it happened, it should be by accident. Like the Light thinking it took Lothraxion from the Legion only, not realising there was another level to it.

Now that i think of it, though... could Lothraxion be what the "The light has made a pact with the enemy of all" is referring to?

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They're Nathrezim. Obviously they'd just manipulate somebody else into building it for them, probably involving a bunch of cursed carving tools.

You know, the part about the Light having made a pact with the enemy of all referring ot Lothraxion is actually a fascinating avenue I had not considered.
On the Lothraxion quadruple agent train though, I almost want to consider something where the Light knows Lothraxion is a spy, but is accepting of it on the consideration that the nathrezim intend to defeat the Void as well, and their (from the Naaru's perspective) brief alliance with Death will come to an end shortly.

[gcsmith]

You know, the part about the Light having made a pact with the enemy of all referring ot Lothraxion is actually a fascinating avenue I had not considered.
On the Lothraxion quadruple agent train though, I almost want to consider something where the Light knows Lothraxion is a spy, but is accepting of it on the consideration that the nathrezim intend to defeat the Void as well, and their (from the Naaru's perspective) brief alliance with Death will come to an end shortly.

Would be funny if the light forging process revealed their memories to the Naruu

[Edward Wu]

why do I get this strange feeling that they are setting up Bolvar to lead both the Horde and Alliance in 10.0?

[Redzonetode]

why do I get this strange feeling that they are setting up Bolvar to lead both the Horde and Alliance in 10.0?

Maybe you ate some spoiled food?