Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[Endus]

Sounds pretty reasonable. Full auto is already a collector piece in the US.

We in the US have not figured out how to get the guns out of the hands of criminals.

If we're gonna be fair on that subject, the US has tried nothing and they're all out of ideas.

Every time there's a new mass shooting, the same song-and-dance goes on that "something should be done", and nothing ever gets done. Not even "tried and failed to achieve results", literally no changes are made at the federal level, not meaningful ones.

[Shadowferal]

: "When I ran, I said I wanted to be the president who would preside over the end of cancer as we know it. And we see the strides we've made, you talk to the docs and the researchers, I can tell you it's within our reach."

That's...oy...quite the claim. https://mobile.twitter.com/thehill/s...7Ctwgr%5Etweet

[SavoirFaire]

If we're gonna be fair on that subject, the US has tried nothing and they're all out of ideas.

Every time there's a new mass shooting, the same song-and-dance goes on that "something should be done", and nothing ever gets done. Not even "tried and failed to achieve results", literally no changes are made at the federal level, not meaningful ones.

And that’s why I say the best thing Biden can do is push for nothing and go draconian on existing gun laws. Slam the hammer down on people and you either get results or you show that what we have doesn’t work. Enforcement of laws, be they gun, tax, mask, or what have you, is always a problem in the US.

[Slant]

Sounds pretty reasonable. Full auto is already a collector piece in the US.

We in the US have not figured out how to get the guns out of the hands of criminals. To do a buyback or anything along those lines (if one would get that far) at some point has to address getting guns out of the hands of the criminal element, and doing so in a way that doesn’t violate other laws is going to be extremely difficult at best. You have to get the good decent people (gun owners or not) on your side, and to do that you have to get the guns out of the bad guys’ hands or people aren’t going to be interested.

Keep in mind this says nothing about where the criminal element for illegal guns resides. The optics on raiding poor minority communities that the police already ignore and taking away their means of defense... yeah nobody has the political will to do that.

The term "collector piece" in connection with guns already says a lot about what's wrong with the US.

But let's move on... this is an argument I hear so often, and people keep ignoring me but here is the no bullshit, sane approach... The goal of all of this is not strictly to "take guns out of the hands of criminals". That's just the easy to sell slogan for everyone to understand the intended net effect.

How? By making guns EXPENSIVE. Right now, guns in the US are so cheap that as a criminal it'd be stupid not to take a weapon to... well, everything criminal you do, from robbery, to burglary to stealing a car. Everyone has guns, after all and they are relatively cheap. But if you remove a percentage of guns from the market, just the legal market, that'll drive prices up on the black market. Supply and demand. And the longer you do this, the higher those black market prices will get jacked up to, remember you're still confiscating illegal firearms (like the US is already doing). So the longer this is kept up, the more expensive black market prices will be.

And that translates to... how much "gun" can a small time thief afford? If a glock is not 2-300 bucks above retail, but 800, 1000, 1500 bucks over retail, how often can he replace a gun? Does he NEED to replace his gun if the general population doesn't have as many guns? I'm talking generalities here, before (what inevitably happens at this point) some dipshit comes along and tells us the one anecdote of blabla, guns are good creation story and jesus blessed his bullets to save his girlfriend yadda yadda...

The point is, every gun nut has a very individual, emotional bullshit argument of "he needs it" while in all truthfulness, it's just his toy. Oh they pretend to be all serious when they say it, but whenyou see them dick around with it on the gun range with their buddies, it's not someone earnestly showing someone else how to operate a weapon for self defense, it's them showing off their gunmanship or their shiny new toys. It's like me showing off my new football boots while dancing around a mate with the ball. It's the exact same attitude.

On the other hand, you have a very simple statistical equation that gun nuts can't argue around. Less guns in the population = less gun crimes. Not only is it MINDBOGGINGLY obvious to come to that conclusion. It's also demonstrated on our planet. The US is the bad example. Every other country is the good example. End of story. There is no actual argument to be had around that.

So that buyback you mentioned? That's just to get the ball rolling. You don't need to do a buyback. You can just sit on the concept for 10-20 years and the natural progress is a reduction of guns to a point where small crimes are done with knives instead of guns.

Positive side effects: Planning a mass shooting requires A LOT more effort, because you don't happen to have an entire platoon's worth of weaponry lying around in your garage anyway. It's much harder to go on a pre-meditated murder spree... and heck, it should by all means completely eliminate snap sprees.

But, again... none of this is of relevance to people who come here and think "gun control = ban". Not only are they creating a dumbass argument in their head that nobody else is making, it's the only argument they COULD have a case against. If this is just about gun control, the good guys should be all for it. Would you want a nutcase to have a gun? Would you want someone to run around your family wielding a gun for funsies? No, of course not. They should all be for it, so they HAVE to twist this discussion into "it's about banning guns", because then they can use the 2nd amendment idiocy to reject it based on emotions and technically nobody can deny them that.

This is what happens every time, watch how often people HAVE to point out "Yes, but this isn't about gun control, it's about bans!"

No, it's not. It never has been. It's unlikely that it ever will be, considering that no other planet in Western civilsation has an actual gun ban. So what the fuck are they talking about?

- - - Updated - - -

Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing based on a strawman that was pointed out that you were continuing from who you initially replied to.

No, the "gun ban" is the strawman. I'm just not buying into that bullshit.

Edit: Also just realised this is the wrong thread. Completely lost track of it, but the argument is still good so I'ma leave it here.

[Shadowferal]

How? By making guns EXPENSIVE. Right now, guns in the US are so cheap that as a criminal it'd be stupid not to take a weapon to... well, everything criminal you do, from robbery, to burglary to stealing a car.

You are so out of touch.... I remember if anyone wanted to buy a gun...there was someone making them when he wasn't "finding" them. A glock17 then and there was $600...the first two loaded mags were free.

- - - Updated - - -

No, the "gun ban" is the strawman. I'm just not buying into that bullshit.

Good luck finding the 400 million guns in the us....and those are just tge legit ones.

[Edge-]

Good luck finding the 400 million guns in the us....and those are just tge legit ones.

Are there 400 million guns in the US? Are people talking about finding and taking them all?

[Bodakane]

The problem is the NRA.

We aren't allowed to study the problem because they use their connections and coffers to ban data collection.

They tell us most gun violence is done with stolen guns, but refuse to let gun registration happen, so we cannot even track when and where all these guns go from being lawfully owned to unlawfully owned to even try and fix the problem of stolen guns.

We in the US are children and we cannot except any restrictions put on us for anything. See Covid.

[Endus]

Good luck finding the 400 million guns in the us....and those are just tge legit ones.

You don't even need to.

Let's say they hypothetically repeal the 2nd Amendment and blanket ban all guns. It'll never happen, I'm just trying to make a simple baseline without loopholes to exploit.

You provide an amnesty period for people to turn in those weapons. Maybe you do like the UK did with the end of slavery and actually buy those guns back, to add some incentives.

Once the amnesty period is over (give it like 6 months), the ban is in place. Sure, there's probably still tens of millions of guns out there. That's fine. If anyone's found to have an illegal gun, that's a mandatory 5 year sentence, served sequentially with whatever other charges may be appropriate (so it extends the sentence by that long). If you actually use that weapon to commit a crime, it's a mandatory 10 year sentence, served sequentially alongside charges for the actual crime. You shoot someone, and get 25 years for murder? That's 35 years combined.

Laws aren't really about crime prevention. They're about punishing criminal actions. You hope that threat of punishment will reduce the incidence of said crimes, but you never expect it to eliminate the crime.

Just need a system that strongly penalizes illegal ownership. If people choose to retain ownership illegally, they'll get punished appropriately as they get caught. That's all any law seeks to do.

[Fugus]

They have a point, Trump did nominate Elaine Chao (as horrible as she was).

Except in Trump's eyes that was likely a strike against her. She was nominated to pay off her husband McConnell into protecting him.

Also, in Trump's eyes, that horrible nature of hers was seen as a plus.

[Milchshake]

If we're gonna be fair on that subject, the US has tried nothing and they're all out of ideas.

Every time there's a new mass shooting, the same song-and-dance goes on that "something should be done", and nothing ever gets done. Not even "tried and failed to achieve results", literally no changes are made at the federal level, not meaningful ones.

The bad actors have had a plurality at higher levels since the AWB passed.

States and municipalities have tried ... and been overruled. Maybe if they had better allies and less Eeyore.

International Leftists ... please do something ^TM other than "US all bad!"

FFS, sanction Ted Cruz! AMLO, rescind his vacation rights in Cancun. Canada! Bar gun CEOs and the Trump boys from taking expensive hunting trips in Canada.


Uhhhh anywhere leftists have power to do this .... nothing.... well ok then.

[Lanrefni]

The problem is the NRA.

We aren't allowed to study the problem because they use their connections and coffers to ban data collection.

They tell us most gun violence is done with stolen guns, but refuse to let gun registration happen, so we cannot even track when and where all these guns go from being lawfully owned to unlawfully owned to even try and fix the problem of stolen guns.

We in the US are children and we cannot except any restrictions put on us for anything. See Covid.

There is a record of every gun sold,it's just barred by law from being digitized so in order to track a gun they need to dig through paper files,and yes,it's broken by design.

[Slant]

You are so out of touch.... I remember if anyone wanted to buy a gun...there was someone making them when he wasn't "finding" them. A glock17 then and there was $600...the first two loaded mags were free.

- - - Updated - - -

Good luck finding the 400 million guns in the us....and those are just tge legit ones.

You remember? What? That first part is just pure nonsense. You are quoting me a price. Great, what does that have to do with the simple idea that less guns = higher price? Supply and demand is a simple enough concept. I am out of touch? Unlikely.

You don't have to find 400 million guns in the US. I mean, apart from that claim being outrageously supportive of the idea of reducing that number, you have again failed to see the point I'm making. You don't have to find all guns. Guns break, guns get returned, they get molten down. It'll take a while, yes. But unlike you, the gun nut that lost all sense of reality, I am not actually saying all guns should be removed from the population NOW. That's YOU putting up the strawman. That's YOU making shit up nobody said. And you are arguing against the bullshit you made up yourself.

I have said no such thing, the entire debate doesn't revolve around the idea of removing all guns. That's just the gun nuts throwing up a smokescreen.

[Bodakane]

There is a record of every gun sold,it's just barred by law from being digitized so in order to track a gun they need to dig through paper files,and yes,it's broken by design.

Yes, which is why I said we aren't allowed to track ownership.

Every gun produced should be in a database, along with who currently owns it. One person cannot own enough guns to hold off the government anyway. There's nothing in 2A that says anything against a database. Then we could actually find the leak where guns are being taken illegally and plug it.

[Edge-]

https://www.azcentral.com/story/opin...er/4772921001/

Loving the pressure being put on shitheels like Sinema from the very people who helped get her elected. Even if she changes her tune I think she's up for a very tough re-election next time.

[Selvari7]

When the other option is "sulk in the corner"? I am. I'll take "watered down" over "dying of thirst".

So you're basically settling for whatever they give you.
The good old mostly keep the status quo but throw some crumbs at the peasants to keep them occupied?

[Felya]

So you're basically settling for whatever they give you.

A starving man turning down a meal, isn’t starving...

[Edge-]

So you're basically settling for whatever they give you.
The good old mostly keep the status quo but throw some crumbs at the peasants to keep them occupied?

So what's the alternative? Do nothing for 2 years because whatever might be don't "isn't enough", get rolled in 2022, complain about how Republicans are back in power after Democrats accomplished nothing because anything they would have done would be "watered down" and then cry in a corner as the country goes backwards and the progressive goals are even further out of reach?

Or...take what we can get now and work to try to build more momentum for progressive policies as folks see how much they help them, using that momentum to work to get more progressive Reps./Senators in place so we can try to get less watered down bills?

Which seems preferable to you?

[Zan15]

You don't even need to.

Let's say they hypothetically repeal the 2nd Amendment and blanket ban all guns. It'll never happen, I'm just trying to make a simple baseline without loopholes to exploit.

You provide an amnesty period for people to turn in those weapons. Maybe you do like the UK did with the end of slavery and actually buy those guns back, to add some incentives.

Once the amnesty period is over (give it like 6 months), the ban is in place. Sure, there's probably still tens of millions of guns out there. That's fine. If anyone's found to have an illegal gun, that's a mandatory 5 year sentence, served sequentially with whatever other charges may be appropriate (so it extends the sentence by that long). If you actually use that weapon to commit a crime, it's a mandatory 10 year sentence, served sequentially alongside charges for the actual crime. You shoot someone, and get 25 years for murder? That's 35 years combined.

Laws aren't really about crime prevention. They're about punishing criminal actions. You hope that threat of punishment will reduce the incidence of said crimes, but you never expect it to eliminate the crime.

Just need a system that strongly penalizes illegal ownership. If people choose to retain ownership illegally, they'll get punished appropriately as they get caught. That's all any law seeks to do.

Also wouldn't be too hard to regulate the sales of bullets and materials as well.
Eventually even if you had the guns they would be all but useless.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, which is why I said we aren't allowed to track ownership.

Every gun produced should be in a database, along with who currently owns it. One person cannot own enough guns to hold off the government anyway. There's nothing in 2A that says anything against a database. Then we could actually find the leak where guns are being taken illegally and plug it.

lol hold off the govt with guns that cannot even get past the most basic armor plating.....

Lets not even get into the part of the "govt" wiping you out from a bunker in florida.....

[Kaleredar]

So what's the alternative? Do nothing for 2 years because whatever might be don't "isn't enough", get rolled in 2022, complain about how Republicans are back in power after Democrats accomplished nothing because anything they would have done would be "watered down" and then cry in a corner as the country goes backwards and the progressive goals are even further out of reach?

That's why I thank my lucky stars that the people that thought like this about Biden weren't enough to meaningfully influence the 2020 election.

I still remember supposedly "progressive" people saying that it would be "good for Trump to win again" after Biden got the nomination because it would teach the democrats that "they need to run more progressive candidates in the future."

[Themius]

That's today - the Australia Solution (I might want to rephrase that) was implemented 20+ years ago. Nothing they are doing now affects those stark and objective numbers.

(that being said, I do see what you are saying - there are just not a lot of democracies/republics who've done this at all)

Australia has been shitty on issues for ages, they've just got sensible ideas about guns like most other countries do.