Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Kiivar86]

I'm assuming cosmos stuff is gonna slow down at some point in the future. I do find it funny, that the moment we start touching big cosmos stuff, people get iffy about it and then Blizz is like "well we may slow down a bit."

Just weird.

I find it weird too. People moping about being away from Azeroth, when we were on Azeroth for the last expansion. Like, I'd get it if this was the second or third expansion away from Azeroth, but we were literally just there.

[EbaumsTipster]

I find it weird too. People moping about being away from Azeroth, when we were on Azeroth for the last expansion. Like, I'd get it if this was the second or third expansion away from Azeroth, but we were literally just there.

It's been a miserable year and people really really want that revamp.

[draugril]

I have no idea about FF endgame, but I doubt more than 10% of the people that started playing during the current trend have yet reached the point where there are no more story quests, and aside from the maxlevel raids, only daily dungeons left to grind - the hate for Praetorium is palpable even to me as a non-player
(I see levelling other jobs as essentially alt gameplay, so I don't see it as true primary progress)

If you look at FFXIV purely from WoW's design philosophy, of course you are going to doubt its value. Because, when viewed specifically through the WoW lens, FFXIV is a pale shadow.

[Ersula]

I find it weird too. People moping about being away from Azeroth, when we were on Azeroth for the last expansion. Like, I'd get it if this was the second or third expansion away from Azeroth, but we were literally just there.

I also would like the explore the Warcraft universe, but when they want to make the game feel more grounded, they focus on Azeroth: 2/3rds of all expansions take place on Azeroth.

[Fahrad Wagner]

I also would like the explore the Warcraft universe, but when they want to make the game feel more grounded, they focus on Azeroth: 2/3rds of all expansions take place on Azeroth.

I don't mind Cosmic plotlines, when they're diluted into something else that is more grounded. I want to feel the buildup, the anticipation, but I still want to retain some mystery and some things we can't explain. The problem is the more we go cosmic... the less mysterious the world of Warcraft feels to me.

[Makabreska]

They would have to come up with a pretty good story contrivance to get them onto Azeroth, and also the main reason people jumped on them because when they added the covenant system, they used the Allied Race preview UI, which made everyone jump to conclusions. And they add tons of "player races" with fully functional rigging that don't actually become player race options.

I mean, especially since Hero Classes effectively no longer exist, there's no reason there couldn't be a Dark Ranger class AND Undead elf allied race. Especially when it would include both Dark Rangers and San'lyn: The Blood Princes had special physiology, but the regular San'lyn were physically identical to dark rangers.

The story makes zero issues into making them AR's. SL are saved and fixed, Covs as a gratitude allow some of their members to join us. Bam. Most bare-bones, but still logical reason. Story provides zero problems, the things like animations, armour fitting are always the main issue with AR's. But I think all these has been alr covered when they made them. If we get AR's in the future, Covs are no. 1 choice.

[Ersula]

The story makes zero issues into making them AR's. SL are saved and fixed, Covs as a gratitude allow some of their members to join us. Bam. Most bare-bones, but still logical reason. Story provides zero problems, the things like animations, armour fitting are always the main issue with AR's. But I think all these has been alr covered when they made them. If we get AR's in the future, Covs are no. 1 choice.

Pretty sure theres rules against letting the dead back into the world of the living. That pretty much defies the existence of a "veil," the natural order, in the first place. Especially when Denathrius had to conduct a whole fake crisis to "exile" the Dreadlords there, and now they rest of the covenants know doing so has put both realms in jeopardy.

But say, if someone used the sepulcher to reorder the shadowlands & all its denizens got exiled to the mortal plane, that would be a more natural segway to getting them as allied races.

[Zantera]

I don't know if they need to go full Cata 2.0 with the next expansion but I for one would love it to see world quests sprinkled all throughout Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms. So many great zones that you have zero reason to revisit sadly. I love me some new zones as well though but regarding the "BFA was technically on Azeroth" point, while that is true, it didn't necessarily feel like it. Like you're stuck to these new zones that might as well have been on another planet.

[Nyel]

I don't know if they need to go full Cata 2.0 with the next expansion but I for one would love it to see world quests sprinkled all throughout Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms. So many great zones that you have zero reason to revisit sadly. I love me some new zones as well though but regarding the "BFA was technically on Azeroth" point, while that is true, it didn't necessarily feel like it. Like you're stuck to these new zones that might as well have been on another planet.

1. Make the entire world scale your level.

2. Add world quests to both Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms.

3. Win.

[draugril]

I don't mind Cosmic plotlines, when they're diluted into something else that is more grounded. I want to feel the buildup, the anticipation, but I still want to retain some mystery and some things we can't explain. The problem is the more we go cosmic... the less mysterious the world of Warcraft feels to me.

And the smaller the world is as a consequence, even if they're making it bigger on paper.

They need to focus on telling personal stories again, with the conflicts being a simple backdrop. Thrall's story was about discovering your roots and the burden of leadership. Grommash was about overcoming addiction and redeeming yourself. Arthas was about the ends not justifying the means. And so on. Yes, Thrall and Grommash assisted in defeating the Burning Legion and Arthas became the world's most powerful Necromancer, but that's not really what their stories were about. I can't tell you the motivations or struggles of any characters in modern WoW. Can anyone describe Bolvar to me as a person, without detailing his job description?

You can go as cosmic as you like if you have good character motivations and development. But the current writers seem to have forgotten that most basic tenet. They are exploring the setting rather than their characters. As such, the story is, at best, as engaging as reading an encyclopedia. Don't get me wrong - I love me a good encyclopedia! But not when I'm expecting an engaging fantasy story.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I don't mind Cosmic plotlines, when they're diluted into something else that is more grounded. I want to feel the buildup, the anticipation, but I still want to retain some mystery and some things we can't explain. The problem is the more we go cosmic... the less mysterious the world of Warcraft feels to me.

We've barely touched the cosmos and no mystery stays unknown forever.

[NikolaiShade]

The story makes zero issues into making them AR's. SL are saved and fixed, Covs as a gratitude allow some of their members to join us. Bam. Most bare-bones, but still logical reason. Story provides zero problems, the things like animations, armour fitting are always the main issue with AR's. But I think all these has been alr covered when they made them. If we get AR's in the future, Covs are no. 1 choice.

Another take: something bad from SL has got on Azeroth, covenants wil return the favor helping the maw walker thus becoming ARs

[EbaumsTipster]

Another take: something bad from SL has got on Azeroth, covenants wil return the favor helping the maw walker thus becoming ARs

That's probably what it is. Also remember Azeroth may be A Zereth so they may be dispatched to Azeroth to protect it as it is important to the First Ones.

[Sondrelk]

I find it weird too. People moping about being away from Azeroth, when we were on Azeroth for the last expansion. Like, I'd get it if this was the second or third expansion away from Azeroth, but we were literally just there.

It's not so much that we are leaving Azeroth, it's that not only did we start there instead of Legion wehre it was teh final patch, but it's also a loation that seems to be entirely chosen for its "cool" factor, and not really because it pertains to much of anything.

As I have said before, this expansion really should have been Northrend, with the Maw as a possible endgame zone at most. Keep players grounded on Azeroth so that when we eventually go to Zereth mortis and run across giant chains it feels even more special.

Since we have stayed in the Shadowlands the entire expansion so far there isnt really anything Blizzard can pull that would top it, so to speak. Zereth mortis is just another nondescript realm, and while it may be cool and all, it isnt really the same as patiently waiting for the descent into insanity like what Argus was for Legion.

[Veya30]

Pretty sure theres rules against letting the dead back into the world of the living. That pretty much defies the existence of a "veil," the natural order, in the first place. Especially when Denathrius had to conduct a whole fake crisis to "exile" the Dreadlords there, and now they rest of the covenants know doing so has put both realms in jeopardy.

But say, if someone used the sepulcher to reorder the shadowlands & all its denizens got exiled to the mortal plane, that would be a more natural segway to getting them as allied races.

Were the Dreadlords just created by Denathrius or were they created from mortal souls like a majority of the Venthyr? I know that Renathal, the Curator and the first Stonewright were just created by Denathrius, were the Dreadlords created the same way?

[EbaumsTipster]

The way the veil works is mostly headcanon. There is no quest lore or dialogue that says the races can't go to other worlds besides some foreboding words about the Maw specifically. That is based on assumptions: it would make sense for them to police SL races from escaping their fates, but.... nope, there isn't any of that ingame. They all just stay in the realm because Video Game.

It would be cool to explore the idea of SL races escaping through tears in space like the Dreadlords and Maldraxxi spies but nop we haven't gotten that yet.

[Makabreska]

This is all new and developing lore. Blizz can change it on the fly no prob.

[Ersula]

1. Make the entire world scale your level.

2. Add world quests to both Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms.

3. Win.

They don't like unilateral level scaling because it makes people who already leveled up feel less powerful. Instead, design a new post-teldrassil Azeroth, add world quests as level 60-70 content & keep the cataclysm era version for lower level people.

- - - Updated - - -

This is all new and developing lore. Blizz can change it on the fly no prob.

Okay, but at that point, if the dead can freely come & go from the Shadowlands, all this "genocide" politics talk is bunk. Murder is meaningless if everybody can just come & go as they please.

[Fahrad Wagner]

We've barely touched the cosmos and no mystery stays unknown forever.

I do not really agree, to me the cosmos isn't just about the realms of each forces. We've been to the Emerald Dream/Nightmare, to the Elemental Planes, to Argus and to the Seat of the Pantheon, to Ny'alotha... When I say cosmos, it does not have to be per se the realms of Life/Light/Void/Order, etc. but anything that touches those realms a bit too close or is a bit too disconnected from Azeroth.

Discovering the Shadowlands through and through has removed any mystery as to how Death works in WoW, and somehow made it less meaningful to me. And don't get me wrong I don't hate this expansion at all, and I am really fond of Ardenweald for example... I just like to keep a bit of mystery, especially when it comes to bigger powers. I agree that no mystery stays unknown forever, but in a fictionnal universe you have to keep a few: it's what keeps you hooked until the end. If everything is explained and said, then as stated earlier the game becomes some kind of encyclopedia of how things work in that world, and that's pretty much it. Coherence is important, but so is mystery in my opinion.

I also strongly agree with the comment made earlier about Blizzard focusing on exploring the setting rather than the characters: that is what is fundamentally wrong with Blizzard's storytelling today, again, in my humble opinion. I think Saurfang's arc was really interesting, not because of its impact in the war, but because in the end it was the story of an old warrior who'd lost his only son and was struggling inside on whether he should give up or fight another day for what's right. I'm not saying that anything linked to the cosmology or even big plotlines should be banned from the game: of course not. I'm just saying they should be used with parcimony. I think Suramar was a great example for that: it was telling the story of the Legion's invasion THROUGH the people and culture of Suramar, and that was fascinating.

Today I am more interested in one day visiting Tel'Abim than to visit the realm of Light, because the build up took years (unlike the new cosmology which is part of a recent massive retcon) and there is almost no information on it: the mystery is REAL. Do I know more about the realm of Light than Tel'Abim though? No. So why am I not interested by it? Because I'm afraid it's gonna escalate one step more, and characters will be once again even more lost in the gigantic explanation of how this realm works.

I might change my mind in the end, but I like grounded stories hinting at something bigger, and then eventually culminating there, before slowing down again. That's also one of the reasons why I loved MoP and didn't hate BfA I guess.

Anyway, don't take any of that as hard truth, it's only my opinion.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I don't know if they need to go full Cata 2.0 with the next expansion but I for one would love it to see world quests sprinkled all throughout Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms. So many great zones that you have zero reason to revisit sadly. I love me some new zones as well though but regarding the "BFA was technically on Azeroth" point, while that is true, it didn't necessarily feel like it. Like you're stuck to these new zones that might as well have been on another planet.

Except we aren't but somehow a different zone with a fancy loading screen "feels" like we aren't on the same planet we know. Well thats on you.

I do not really agree, to me the cosmos isn't just about the realms of each forces. We've been to the Emerald Dream/Nightmare, to the Elemental Planes, to Argus and to the Seat of the Pantheon, to Ny'alotha... When I say cosmos, it does not have to be per se the realms of Life/Light/Void/Order, etc. but anything that touches those realms a bit too close or is a bit too disconnected from Azeroth.

The emerald Dream is more Azeroth related more then anything else. Same with the elemental planes its specific to Azeroth(And yes I know each world has its own elementals and such). Argus was ONE planet related to Fel and demons but theoretically there could be something else in the Twisting Nether that we haven't touched. The Burning Legion is a very used theme but we stopped after Legion. Demons aren't really relevant as they used to be and no the dreadlords don't count cause their importance is relevant to death. This feeling of disconnection you are feeling is superficial and well you are projecting onto the game. You are doing it to yourself and quite frankly other realms is not uncommon in Fantasy.