1. #51221
    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    Every WoW expansion has a story. And it's generally better than " Generic evil bad guy does generic evil bad guy stuff while the player is gathering the Infinity Stones" which is what ARR is.
    Except it’s… not. Shadowlands is the one with the infinity stones and the bad guy who has less than one dimension.

    WoW hasn’t had a coherent character with an actual arc in half a decade at best. Almost everything you are tasked with in wow is a trivial fetch quest that has little to no bearing on the actual story. It’s just something to do between the events happening to other characters. It’s a joke.

    They were... overwhelmed by Exile's Reach and 3 buttons to press?

    Yikes.
    They had about 10 buttons by level 12, and as people who never played an mmo it was extremely obtuse and confusing, especially once the waterfall of rng and procs and idiosyncratic mechanics kicked in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    TBF though you are stuck with a slow, boring rotation in FF for a long time. Depending on job it could be til 30, or 50, or even beyond. They're trying to fix some of it, but it's a hard fix.
    It’s a new player experience, and mmo veterans are shocked and confused why it isn’t custom crafted for them.
    Last edited by NineSpine; 2021-11-06 at 11:42 PM.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  2. #51222
    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    FF14 has the same type of quests, except they make you run across the map too.
    Fates maybe, but if I need to collect 3 bird beaks from a bird mob, that just simply means I need to kill 3 birds.

  3. #51223
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    It’s a new player experience, and mmo veterans are shocked and confused why it isn’t custom crafted for them.
    You're assuming new players can't grasp a fun rotation.

    Like I said, they're working on fixing some things (like moving the level 72 BLM trait to THM level 1), but it'll take a long time to fix.

  4. #51224
    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    An RPG in which you can be every class and there's no real decision making isn't an RPG.
    Ah yes, having to level and manage alts, that is definitely what makes wow interesting.

    So many “decisions” in wow. Will I do what icy veins tells me or will I get yelled at for not doing what icy veins tells me? Such meaningful choice!


    [quoteFF14 has the same type of quests, except they make you run across the map too.[/QUOTE]

    It has about five of those quests in the entire MSQ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    You're assuming new players can't grasp a fun rotation.

    Like I said, they're working on fixing some things (like moving the level 72 BLM trait to THM level 1), but it'll take a long time to fix.
    I’m saying that after multiple friends trying wow as their first mmo and giving up immediately due to how overwhelming it was, only people totally blinded by their own years of experience can’t see that a handful of abilities is more than enough for a new player until 50, especially given that ff14 includes running dungeons in the story and ultimately by 50 you have done about as much combat as you do by 25 in wow.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  5. #51225
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Oh come on...

    We all know what side of the fanatic line you fall on, but can we not be flat out ridiculous just to try to make XIV's low level experience look better?
    If you think giving someone ten abilities in half an hour, including incredibly obtuse situational ones, is good new player design, you are delusional.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Again....really? As if that's not the case in XIV - or any MMO?

    Come on with this nonsense.
    It’s not the case in 14.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  6. #51226
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    So many “decisions” in wow. Will I do what icy veins tells me or will I get yelled at for not doing what icy veins tells me? Such meaningful choice!
    Talent customization isn't inherently bad. The brutal metagaming of WoW is due to Blizzard making raiding and mythic dungeons the end-all-be-all of WoW, and adding a timer to the mythic dungeons and overtuning the raids. Hence why the community emphasizes optimization so much, because you have 20 players who are using their limited free time to play and they just want to get it done. FFXIV isn't as brutal; almost all of the content can be completed with the party asleep at the wheel and not doing their rotations right, and raiding the latest ultimate isn't the end-all-be-all of FFXIV. You can insert talent trees and people won't be kicking you because you didn't pick what Icy Veins told you to pick. That said, given how jobs are tweaked and overhauled every expansion, talent trees might just wind up making it too complicated to keep up (as is the case with WoW).

  7. #51227
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I’m saying that after multiple friends trying wow as their first mmo and giving up immediately due to how overwhelming it was, only people totally blinded by their own years of experience can’t see that a handful of abilities is more than enough for a new player until 50, especially given that ff14 includes running dungeons in the story and ultimately by 50 you have done about as much combat as you do by 25 in wow.
    You have to balance the both of them, you have to give interesting rotations that can keep both new to mmo players and people who have played. You lose most of your potential customers in those first hours.

    It doesn't need to be a bunch of buttons btw, you can make an interesting rotation out of 5 buttons.

  8. #51228
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Talent customization isn't inherently bad. The brutal metagaming of WoW is due to Blizzard making raiding and mythic dungeons the end-all-be-all of WoW, and adding a timer to the mythic dungeons and overtuning the raids. Hence why the community emphasizes optimization so much, because you have 20 players who are using their limited free time to play and they just want to get it done. FFXIV isn't as brutal; almost all of the content can be completed with the party asleep at the wheel and not doing their rotations right, and raiding the latest ultimate isn't the end-all-be-all of FFXIV. You can insert talent trees and people won't be kicking you because you didn't pick what Icy Veins told you to pick. That said, given how jobs are tweaked and overhauled every expansion, talent trees might just wind up making it too complicated to keep up (as is the case with WoW).
    The lack of talent trees is why ff14 is so balanced, which would be a trade off if the talent trees were anything in wow but ways to tell if someone is bad or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    You're probably the only person to ever take this stance on the new player experience.

    Like WoW is just so "overwhelming" and XIV players need 50 levels of 1-2 or 1-2-3 or else it'll completely defeat them
    Because wow almost never gets new players. Their new player experience is made for alt leveling.

    50 levels is less than 10 hours of gameplay in ff14. You are acting like it’s 300 hours of combat.

    Seriously, stop lying just because you like one game more than another.
    You think ff14 has guides telling you which talents and gear to equip?
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  9. #51229
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The lack of talent trees is why ff14 is so balanced, which would be a trade off if the talent trees were anything in wow but ways to tell if someone is bad or not.
    I will never call it balanced til MCH gets some love, for a mostly selfish DPS it is far too low

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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    You think ff14 has guides telling you which talents and gear to equip?
    It has guides on what gear to equip and exactly how to play your job, if it had talents it would have those too.

  10. #51230
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    You have to balance the both of them, you have to give interesting rotations that can keep both new to mmo players and people who have played. You lose most of your potential customers in those first hours.

    It doesn't need to be a bunch of buttons btw, you can make an interesting rotation out of 5 buttons.
    I’ll take the simpler rotations and mobs with mechanics to engage with over wows “have seventeen procs and eight layers of rng while you kill generic mobs with no mechanics”.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  11. #51231
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I’ll take the simpler rotations and mobs with mechanics to engage with over wows “have seventeen procs and eight layers of rng while you kill generic mobs with no mechanics”.
    What mobs in early FF have engaging mechanics? The most interesting mechanic for the first 30 levels is finding the correct color in Sastasha

  12. #51232
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    I will never call it balanced til MCH gets some love, for a mostly selfish DPS it is far too low

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    It has guides on what gear to equip and exactly how to play your job, if it had talents it would have those too.
    A guide that says “tanks equip fending gear” is not anything like wow. Comparing it is a joke.

    Every game has “how to play” guides. Wow is the one with “how to make only the right meta choices so that you aren’t terrible and people don’t threaten you when you group with them”.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    What mobs in early FF have engaging mechanics? The most interesting mechanic for the first 30 levels is finding the correct color in Sastasha
    Mobs have telegraphed mechanics to dodge, not a million of them or anything, but it’s more than wow having none.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  13. #51233
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    A guide that says “tanks equip fending gear” is not anything like wow. Comparing it is a joke.

    Every game has “how to play” guides. Wow is the one with “how to make only the right meta choices so that you aren’t terrible and people don’t threaten you when you group with them”.

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    Mobs have telegraphed mechanics to dodge, not a million of them or anything, but it’s more than wow having none.
    Don't stand in bad is pretty universal in MMOs, wouldn't really call it engaging.

    And no, the guides are about what your stat thresholds are, how much skillspeed you should have as a tank, what you should use if you main one tank, what you should use if you play all the tanks. The FF guides get so nitty gritty that the BLM guide has like 3 or 4 different rotations based on your spellspeed.

    I find it hilarious that you don't think people aren't minmaxing the hell out of FF, they've been doing it since launch.

  14. #51234
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    Don't stand in bad is pretty universal in MMOs, wouldn't really call it engaging.

    And no, the guides are about what your stat thresholds are, how much skillspeed you should have as a tank, what you should use if you main one tank, what you should use if you play all the tanks. The FF guides get so nitty gritty that the BLM guide has like 3 or 4 different rotations based on your spellspeed.
    That’s laughable compared to wows guides. The right and wrong gear in ff14 is relatively minor differences in output. In wow it can be a 40% difference if you make the wrong meta choices.

    The volume of meta choices that aren’t real choices in wow is what I am pointing to, not the idea that you can play the games well or poorly,
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  15. #51235
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    That’s laughable compared to wows guides. The right and wrong gear in ff14 is relatively minor differences in output. In wow it can be a 40% difference if you make the wrong meta choices.

    The volume of meta choices that aren’t real choices in wow is what I am pointing to, not the idea that you can play the games well or poorly,
    The depth of FF guides is insane compared to wow guides. WoW guides are basically "do this", FF guides are "do this, because this, and if you do this you can get an extra 3 dps"

    FF guide writers are flipping insane.

  16. #51236
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The lack of talent trees is why ff14 is so balanced, which would be a trade off if the talent trees were anything in wow but ways to tell if someone is bad or not.

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    Because wow almost never gets new players. Their new player experience is made for alt leveling.

    50 levels is less than 10 hours of gameplay in ff14. You are acting like it’s 300 hours of combat.



    You think ff14 has guides telling you which talents and gear to equip?

    I am not trying to be rude. But you are wrong. There are some guides online to tell you what stat is better. Then press X,Y,Z for rotations. I would suggest you use that bitch Google. She will help you out a lot. She is helping me right now with my dragoon.
    Be careful who you chat it up with here on these forums. If you are NOT for WoW and about WoW, people will report whatever you say and get you banned

  17. #51237
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggressive View Post
    I am not trying to be rude. But you are wrong. There are some guides online to tell you what stat is better. Then press X,Y,Z for rotations. I would suggest you use that bitch Google. She will help you out a lot. She is helping me right now with my dragoon.
    I can’t discuss anything with anyone that intentionally misses the point. If you think people are getting kicked out of groups from too low skill speed in ff14 or having the wrong materia, you are absolutely delusional.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    The depth of FF guides is insane compared to wow guides. WoW guides are basically "do this", FF guides are "do this, because this, and if you do this you can get an extra 3 dps"

    FF guide writers are flipping insane.
    For the eighth time. “How to play” and “how to make the right meta choices” aren’t the same thing.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  18. #51238
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I can’t discuss anything with anyone that intentionally misses the point. If you think people are getting kicked out of groups from too low skill speed in ff14 or having the wrong materia, you are absolutely delusional.
    You'd be surprised.

  19. #51239
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    You'd be surprised.
    I really would since I have over 1000 hours in the game and my wife has over 3000.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  20. #51240
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I really would since I have over 1000 hours in the game and my wife has over 3000.
    Are you doing ultimates where everything matters down to the food you eat?

    Of course people aren't kicking in Savage if you have no skillspeed as a tank, the content is not cutting edge (though you probably will get booted if you meld pie), the reason there's no meta for most of it is because the content is too easy to require it.

    WoW has such a meta because the content requires it at certain levels.

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