Leaving M+ group should give you DESERTER

[Zardas]

I edited my post after you posted yours. I'll link it again here :

https://raider.io/mythic-plus-runs/s...khud-offensive

Average group ilvl 367, Rdrood ilvl 330. 13 Deaths and somehow we still managed to time it.

For any given key level whatever you think the required ilvl is, subtract 20 from it. Just because you can't do it, doesnt mean others can't.

So what does it means ? That the rdruid got "carried" ? That you could have done the dungeon without him ? And would you say that it's representative of the general key ? Because, again, I have a vastly different experience, and most of my keys are 5 regular people just doing what they need to do to clean the key.

[Azharok]

So what does it means ? That the rdruid got "carried" ? That you could have done the dungeon without him ? And would you say that it's representative of the general key ? Because, again, I have a vastly different experience, and most of my keys are 5 regular people just doing what they need to do to clean the key.

I mean technically we did boost him because there's no way anyone would invite a 330ilvl drood for a +9. He's a pretty good player if anything we carried the the DPS DH on that key. The point I was trying to make is that for any given key (not bleeding edge keys), no amount of ilvl will save your key if the players are bad.

The guys asking for tier sets for 15s do this because in their mind the average pug is so bad at the game that they hope that the 4p will allow them to brute force the key. But I suppose that there's no anecdotal evidence I can provide to counter your anecdotal experience.

You keep saying that everyone should pull their weight, and you're right they should, but it never happens in reality.

[Zardas]

The point I was trying to make is that for any given key (not bleeding edge keys), no amount of ilvl will save your key if the players are bad.

Yes that's what I'm saying...

You keep saying that everyone should pull their weight, and you're right they should, but it never happens in reality.

Well, pretty much every key I did in the last 3 weeks disagree with this statement.

[crusadernero]

if i enter a dungeon, and after reaching first boss 2 dps do less dmg together than tank, have dozen deaths for standing in shit each, and zero interupts, and i decide to leave, who is really screwing with someones key, me, or those two whou shouldnt even be there bcs its WELL beyond their skill?

thats the thing, if the "punishment" always hits the first person leaving, its not adressing the issue...

You joined a random pug were you dont know the real skill of each player. Thats the risk of pugging. Stick with it or dont do it.

[munkeyinorbit]

I don't understand how there are no repercussions if someone leaves the M+ group (for various reasons) and messes up someone else's key.

In PvP if you leave nobody loses anything else but time and your spot can be replaced by someone else and you still get deserter, in M+ nothing.

Literally, nobody is trying in M+ anymore because they don't have to. If people would get a 30 minutes deserter for leaving an M+ group, people would try harder to finish a key even if it will be depleted or barely in time.

Is it just me, or?

IMO the people that are still in the group should get a deserter debuff of 3 hours for wasting the time if the guy who left. Want to get carried? Pay for it.

- - - Updated - - -

That makes 0 sense.

As long as I invited people through the Group Finder, it's the same thing. Just opens 4 people to being victimized by a troll or some impatient douchebag, and there should be consequences for it. Hopefully they are coming.

Only people disagreeing with this are the chronic leavers, and they know they would be most affected.

There should be consequences for people who waste others time by dying in a myrhic+. Why should anyone stick around when bads keep dying and wrecking a key?

[Jester Joe]

You mean the mount that anyone serious about M+ is attained week 2 ? Some flex ...

I will never understand why people think belittling others makes an argument.

Statistically speaking, a small amount of the playerbase even gets KSM.

There's some disillusionment going on where people fail to realize that they're generally only interacting with the top 1% and somehow think that's the average player.

[munkeyinorbit]

Prepare to be kicked right before the endboss and replaced with "a friend who just came online" ...

No kicking allowed. A person has to afk for 3.mins or remove themselves. Problem solved.

- - - Updated - - -

they the whouldnt stay in the grp when the key goes in, if they think its gona be a carry the should leave be4 hand

Why? Bad group makers should be punished. If it's obvious that they key won't be done before you even start then a player has an obligation to the community to lower that key.

[Apatrida]

How about if you do it several times in a given time frame you are banned from joining M+ games for a week, e.g.?

[SoundOfGuns]

There should be some kind of system for sure and i think the only reason to be against that notion is being a twat who bails M+Keys on the regular because a healer sneezed wrong (and im not sure this is an exeggeration). This won't work though as long as the Groups are managed the way they are.

You could probably punish whoever bails an M+ first by leveling down their key as well though and heavier depending on the key they ruined. That wouldn't stop it for sure but maybe people will think about it for a hot minute. Not like i expect much thinking coming from your average bailer.

[Azharok]

I will never understand why people think belittling others makes an argument.

Statistically speaking, a small amount of the playerbase even gets KSM.

There's some disillusionment going on where people fail to realize that they're generally only interacting with the top 1% and somehow think that's the average player.

I mean using KSM as some sort of argument of authority relating to M+ is laughable. Not that getting the mount is meaningless but because KSM is attained by just about 20-25% of players profiles (if we are to trust Wowhead numbers). So KSM is not 1% of players.

[Alroxas]

I don't understand how there are no repercussions if someone leaves the M+ group (for various reasons) and messes up someone else's key.

Simply put any system that would "punish" quitters would also be abused to make the M+ experience even worse.



Here's a longer example (which others have covered before): Let's take your idea of a "deserter" debuff for the first player that leaves an in session M+ run.

Bob doesn't want to be in the run anymore (for any number of reasons) but Bob doesn't want the deserter debuff. So Bob decides to play so poorly that someone else "leaves" first. Now Bob can leave without the deserter debuff. What does playing poorly look like? Anything passive from not using cooldowns/interrupts/stuns to incredibly aggressive (pulling extra packs, "accidentally" dying, etc). How is this better?

Next, let's consider the idea of only putting in a deserter debuff for anybody that leaves while the timer is still counting down (there's time left). Now you get players who will AFK (but not really afk) on a dead key because they feel like the amount time left is insufficient from timing. So now you have players waiting 30~40 minutes because nobody wants to volunteer to take the debuff. How is this fun?


Realistically, the issue is that M+ was NOT designed for PuGs. Sure you can run them in a PuG but that's far from ideal scenario.

Ideally if you want M+ to run smoother you either play with players you know or communicate heavily so that players have expectations set before starting the run. Even with a decent amount of communication there's no guarantee that the run will go well so factor in some percentage of PuG M+ will fail and end up with players disbanding.

[Jester Joe]

I mean using KSM as some sort of argument of authority relating to M+ is laughable. Not that getting the mount is meaningless but because KSM is attained by just about 20-25% of players profiles (if we are to trust Wowhead numbers). So KSM is not 1% of players.

I am not saying KSM is the top 1%, I'm not sure where you're getting that idea.

I'm saying people who come into discussions like this and start using +25-30 as an example seem to forget that that's pushing towards the cutting edge crowd, and isn't always a good reflection of the general setting.

And that on top of that, it's a bit weird to mock people as if having KSM isn't experience, especially since there's plenty of people who stopped at the point of there being no rewards past that, historically

[munkeyinorbit]

Yes, some people do play pretty poorly, fail to avoid aoes, or don't soak, or whatever can fail timing a key, even a sub 10.
But again, is it really ok for people to ruin the experience of everyone else in the group just because they can't stand a player doing such mistake and failing the timing of a key ?

Yes. It is actually harmful to the community if they didn't leave. People need to know there are consequences for their shit play.

[Easyclassictopkeklel]

The social incompetence these days is just sad. Imagine just making friends, adding people to a friends list and playing keys with those people, having fun and no problems. But yeah, this would take a slight amount of social interaction, way easier to keep playing pugs and be miserable and keep crying on message boards where nobody really gives a fk anyways.

I often run pug keys when I am bored, but you ALWAYS have to expect that there will be some idiots or plebs. And NOBODY should be forced to stay in those groups, the fact that people compare this to solo shuffle leavers is just showing how ignorant some people can be. So because I join a pug key where people dont know mechanics, dont interrupt and the healer cant heal the group so we keep chainwiping I HAVE to stay in that group? I have to stay in a group where you want to time a +16 and the dps with 400+ itemlevel just push 35k overall dps and we keep dying because of that?
If you dont want people to leave your key, don't play with randoms.

[munkeyinorbit]

Do you think that they would ever improve if people like you keep abandonning them when they make such a mistake ? Just talk to them, explain them what they do wrong, try to improve the group pulls after pulls. And if you, as a group, see that there is no way to pass the boss, just vote to abandon the key. No need to act like you do, have a stronger will and stop ruining the experience of everyone.

This doesn't work and blizzard has confirmed it. People don't rise to the challenge. Why waste time with people when they will never improve and take such "advice" as an insult.

[Barzotti]

I don' really care if the key isn't timed as long as it's not a one hour slog, everyone makes mistakes and that's the pug life. About 95% of the keys I'm joining are timed and are a pleasant experience overall. But I'm never afraid to leave early if I know that it will be a clown fiesta and a complete waste of time.

One example this week: one dps awakens the second set of whelps in a +14 Azure vault. Full wipe. Well, ok, that's gonna be tight. First boss, the tank tanks it in a corner, makes it very hard to clear the trees and keep uptime on the boss, never uses a defensive during the tank buster, dies, gets rezzed, dies to the next tank buster. Ok cya! I don't have the patience to wait for people to learn the dungeons in a +14.

And OP's solution is completely unrealistic for the top end players who keep bricking keys and leaving them when they see the key won't be timed.

[Zardas]

This doesn't work and blizzard has confirmed it. People don't rise to the challenge. Why waste time with people when they will never improve and take such "advice" as an insult.

Can you please points me towards the study or the post where Blizzard has confirmed it ?

[cigawoot]

Realistically, the issue is that M+ was NOT designed for PuGs. Sure you can run them in a PuG but that's far from ideal scenario.

This is what everyone forgets. Mythic+ is designed for organized groups. Just because you can PuG doesn't mean Blizzard should design Mythic+ around it. This idea of a "deserter" debuff makes no sense in the context of an organized group of players running a key.

Find a group to run keys with. I've got a crew of my own I regularly run keys with and it's great.

[lllll]

Can you please points me towards the study or the post where Blizzard has confirmed it ?

https://twitter.com/ghostcrawler/sta...39865858396162
https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...02889646141440

[Zardas]

https://twitter.com/ghostcrawler/sta...39865858396162
https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...02889646141440

Maybe you haven't read the discussion, but we were speaking about if people will improve if you just blame them and leave them feeling like shit, not about if harder content appeal to more players. But thanks for the insight mate.