World Record Siege of Niuzao Temple - 10:17

[Deleted]

Thats was a realy nice run keep it up

[DetectiveJohnKimble]

This line of thinking involves a risk — anyone could argue that what they do goes into the gray area. Let's use a controversial example.

If a group finds a way to prevent their gear from downscaling, they gain an advantage over everyone in 463 gear. If accused, the clever group could defend itself by stating that what they do is inside the boundaries of what's allowed, because what's allowed is not clearly defined. The logic you use would effectively legitimize this point of view.

Make of that what you will.

Obviously, situations like your example are exploits when Blizzard establishes explicit rules that address that. Getting around that limitation is attempting to do the instance in a way that was not intended and breaks the rules-hence it's an exploit.

Here, we don't have any clear indication from Blizzard (which, of course, is why it's a "gray area"). The reset trick hasn't been fixed, and it's been used consistently by many of the top challenge mode runs for Niuzao, so maybe we can say it's okay to do. The kiting trick is pretty obviously legitimate, because that's been held to be legitimate in the past (Ulduar). Furthermore, I believe during the Devs v. Players challenge mode run back near MOP release Ion mentioned how keeping up the buff in Niuzao is going to be the key to getting the fastest times.

Also, the key to remember here is that the rules can be a bit looser, because there is no "world first" or anything like that associated with challenge modes. If someone discovers a new way to clear the instance faster, and that way is available to everyone, then anyone can come in and try to beat the fastest time using the new trick. It's not like the competition upon the release of a raid tier or gaining rating in PvP.

[Deleted]

Also remember, I believe it was like rule 14 (or 16?) of their raiding (PvE) principles, "If adds can be kited, they will be kited" so my feeling is that if they seriously didn't want something like this to happen they would have made it so from the get go.

[Harmonium]

I chose the gear example on purpose, because it's an extreme one. The community more or less accepts the different tricks used in various challenges (the infamous control undead strat being one of them), but some groups go forward and use them nevertheless. The question is: where do we draw the line? It's likely only a matter of time before more tricks are discovered and used in a variety of dungeons, some of them being just as questionable as unscaled gear, and there will be players to defend those.

In the end, though, it's all arbitrary and I'm not here to judge what you guys do. I guess I'd just like Blizzard to post some sort of developper watercooler about challenge modes so we can be set for once and for all.

[rhorle]

Sorry in advance to being uncivil, but what the fuck are you smoking? The timer starts when you start the instance it really is as simple as that. We get pre-buffs reset (which obviously includes the timer) then we go for real. What you said is your obscured opinion of how things should be times, fact is the vast majority of people will agree with my point as well as Blizzard (which is the more important one) since they don't time you from when you enter the instance, but rather from when you actually start it.

You can reset the timer while inside the instance. The run where you got 10:16 had 1+ minute of pre work running the instance. Your true time is the pre-work plus the one you actually let count down. You did not get pre-buffs reset since the the stacking damage buff did not reset. Do you not even understand the very mechanic you used?

In the video your group posted you have the timer counting down. Don't blame me you don't even know what you really did. Watch your own video because it seems you don't have any idea what you (or if you weren't involved what they) actually did.

[Nigeldruid]

Pretty cool, and still hard to pull off like this.

That being said, it's a bug abuse, and thus, some may not consider this a proper run (including me).

[RayuEU]

I chose the gear example on purpose, because it's an extreme one. The community more or less accepts the different tricks used in various challenges (the infamous control undead strat being one of them), but some groups go forward and use them nevertheless. The question is: where do we draw the line? It's likely only a matter of time before more tricks are discovered and used in a variety of dungeons, some of them being just as questionable as unscaled gear, and there will be players to defend those.

In the end, though, it's all arbitrary and I'm not here to judge what you guys do. I guess I'd just like Blizzard to post some sort of developper watercooler about challenge modes so we can be set for once and for all.

The thing is though, I DO care about fair competition. If we could establish generally accepted 'rules' for challenge mode runs I would be game for that. I value your opinion Bouleau, because what's there to compete for if we play a different game? I too hope Blizzard does this.

[rhorle]

Also remember, I believe it was like rule 14 (or 16?) of their raiding (PvE) principles, "If adds can be kited, they will be kited" so my feeling is that if they seriously didn't want something like this to happen they would have made it so from the get go.

The problem isn't that adds are being kited. The problem is you are keeping a stacking debuff that increases your damage even after you reset the instance (and restart the count down timer as the video on the first page shows). You are getting it to stack to levels normally unavailable during the course of a normal instance clear by resetting the instance to provide more of those mobs to kill.

That is what is cheating and that is what is an exploit. Kiting is perfectly acceptable tactic.

[Deleted]

You can reset the timer while inside the instance. The run where you got 10:16 had 1+ minute of pre work running the instance. Your true time is the pre-work plus the one you actually let count down. You did not get pre-buffs reset since the the stacking damage buff did not reset. Do you not even understand the very mechanic you used?

In the video your group posted you have the timer counting down. Don't blame me you don't even know what you really did. Watch your own video because it seems you don't have any idea what you (or if you weren't involved what they) actually did.

Did we reset the instance and do it in one pull after the buffs? I believe we did, you also can watch the video to see that. If you watch closely you will also see the timer for the run also resets when we reset it for the real run, but look closely, it's happens super fast so you miss it. Maybe you should explain your obscure logic behind 'true' time since you clearly don't understand how you are actually timed in challenge modes. I have to admit however, I should have put the lottery on since I was so damn lucky being able to randomly trap and hit my DPS buttons, because I clearly didn't understand the mechanic I used, I would have been a millionaire!

[Deleted]

We didn't, (currently world 4th) and we can probabbly beat that time without a reset too. There's even a proof that we didn't :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paKewmn_7kg

Didn't use the gong trick either

edit: Just wanted to note also that as you can see from my video keeping the ooze stack isn't a new strat, and if you want to point out that we didn't keep them for the entire instance you can just look at the comments I posted over 2 weeks ago saying it was possible, I also mentioned it very often on stream for those who watch my runs. I'm pretty sure all the players competing in the top 1% times know about it and knew about it for weeks now. I'm not taking credits for it because I'm sure others thought about it before me too.

Im not sure if the gong trick actually works anymore (never seen it myself). When my group did the current world 3rd we actually tried the gong trick and it did not work.

I agree when you say that its not "a new strategy", when I saw this time yesterday (a few hours after it was done) I knew imediatly what they had done to achive that kind of time.

While the micromanaging of the adds is impressive and I think overall they did a good job I dont think it will be too hard to beat this time, everything from the first boss and up to the 3rd boss seems to be going very slowly despite the 300-500% more damage done buff.

[Nerthfu]

Im not sure if the gong trick actually works anymore (never seen it myself). When my group did the current world 3rd we actually tried the gong trick and it did not work.

I agree when you say that its not "a new strategy", when I saw this time yesterday (a few hours after it was done) I knew imediatly what they had done to achive that kind of time.

While the micromanaging of the adds is impressive and I think overall they did a good job I dont think it will be too hard to beat this time, everything from the first boss and up to the 3rd boss seems to be going very slowly despite the 300-500% more damage done buff.

I'm pretty sure it still works it's just a bitch to execute. I think the easiest way is to have everyone spam the gong before it's clickable instead of making a countdown on any form of VoiP so that you can be sure everyone is gonna click it more or less at the exact same time (as soon as it's possible to interact with the gong). As for the rest, glad to see we agree on everything :P

[Deja Thoris]

That is what is cheating and that is what is an exploit.

Stop stating your opinion as fact. For the love of God. Blizz is fine with it. If they weren't it would have been hotfixed immediately, its had tons of attention over the past weeks.

We can agree to disagree but you calling people exploiters and cheats is plain wrong. Especially since you see the need to rehash the same shit 3 times a page.

[rhorle]

We can agree to disagree but you calling people exploiters and cheats is plain wrong. Especially since you see the need to rehash the same shit 3 times a page.

The person I was responding to implied the kiting was what was being considered cheating. I'm not rehashing anything that isn't being brought up by others.

[Senen]

Because resetting an instance isn't the same as shadow melding out of combat. Resetting the instance is supposed to be exactly the same as if you just zoned into a fresh instance. It isn't supposed to allow you to farm a stacking debuff then zerg and kite to keep that debuff. That is why it is cheating because something that should be cleared isn't being cleared.

They aren't resetting a mob, they are resetting an instance. There is a big difference between the two.

Resetting a Challenge Mode is like resetting a raid boss. Some things are reset, some are not. Several buff/debuff with a specific duration that you can get during an encounter are not reset when you reset the encounter (for instance, against Mel'jarak you keep the "you can't break an amber prison" after a reset).
Blizzard has the tools to specifiy if a buff should be reset or not. Whether it was intended that this buff doesn't reset is not obvious at all.

I haven't any particular problem with this exploit, tbh.
However, the discussion seems to be about "what is a speedrunning" and I agree that, if you refer to any speedrunning community, the time considered would be the time from the start of the first run to the end of the second. The start of your run is the start of the first run, not the second.

[DanixAsc]

OHAI!

First of all, thanks for the nice comments!

I registered to share my view on the stacks thing. As RayuEU said above, this is just my own opinion!
I consider tanking Gara'jal where he wasn't spawning totems or preventing Wind Lord from dropping wind bombs exploiting, not blob stacks staying after reset. That said, it would have been nice if they fixed it during beta/before anyone could use it, but since Blizz stated several times that they're not going to change these things in order not to alter times I think everyone interested in fast runs should use it.
While it feels weird and not logical to me, on the other hand makes the run harder from the start since you take extra damage from the first blob you kill.

/danix

[lanerios]

people still give Rhorle the troll attention? sad...


I have to say, impressive kill. I attempted challenge modes a few times myself, never got even close to gold, but this just looks awesome to watch.

[HardCoder]

I don't understand why you're calling it cheating? I see nothing wrong here, they just reset the mobs, Big deal, that's not cheating, And they kept the buff? Big deal, also not cheating, Whenever I'm doing dailys, and if i find myself about to die, i shadowmeld, that resets the mobs, But if i have a debuff on me it stays, it doesn't disappear, so if debuffs stay i see no reason why buffs wont either, Your blind hatred is on your silly assumption that if you reset a mob it should clear buffs, which isn't true

Blind hatred? When you reset an instance, it should clear any state change you have from that instance.

Remember how you used to go into a BG, collect raid buffs, then leave it and go solo a raid? And how that doesn't work now?

That should make it clear that there is no intent for you to retain buffs from a previous reset of the instance.

As far as the video goes, it's great work, but it's also an exploit.

[Vargur]

Congratulations Draemi & Co.

[Imaskar]

All those haters do not understand the whole CM time attack thing. There is no "improper runs". There are more and less clever ones.

[Deleted]

Did we reset the instance and do it in one pull after the buffs? I believe we did, you also can watch the video to see that. If you watch closely you will also see the timer for the run also resets when we reset it for the real run, but look closely, it's happens super fast so you miss it. Maybe you should explain your obscure logic behind 'true' time since you clearly don't understand how you are actually timed in challenge modes. I have to admit however, I should have put the lottery on since I was so damn lucky being able to randomly trap and hit my DPS buttons, because I clearly didn't understand the mechanic I used, I would have been a millionaire!

Are you truly this slow or just naive ?

You spend ~1 minute on one run.
You then reset the run making it 0 seconds.
You then start a new run counting from 0 seconds
You have buffs that can only be gained by spending that minute extra before resetting.

Now...should your time be from the first run (hell even the first stack you get) or after resetting after working for a minute ?
Keep in mind its IMPOSSIBLE to get the same amount stacks if not resetting (i.e adding time and then removing that time)

Do you even understand the impossible part ?