Holy Paladin nerfs in PTR patch 5.3

[Xs]

Ty for the response Xs...10-15% is huge...the EF blanketing will be not viable if the mana cost is that higher...maybe is time to switch to sacred shield and the 4 PC T15 bonus can places us as mainly tank healer, swapping the beacon on main and off tank...and the mastery drop maybe will put us to look into the haste gear. Any thoughts and ideas...if not clear my thoughts, Sorry for the bad english.

Eternal Flame is still better than Sacred Shield, nothing in the current meta changes we just get nerfed to require even more Spirit stacking

[Taygete]

Anyone considering 2pc t14 + 2pc t15 with the changes?

[Freia]

Anyone considering 2pc t14 + 2pc t15 with the changes?

I think you are better off getting upgrading the gear over using 2pc t14.

[Taygete]

I think you are better off getting upgrading the gear over using 2pc t14.

Probably, but the set bonuses work nicely together, especially considering the mastery nerf.

[Xs]

Anyone considering 2pc t14 + 2pc t15 with the changes?

They'd work nicely together but you're losing too much spirit vs 522/528 gear for it to be worth holding onto

[Tomana]

Anyone considering 2pc t14 + 2pc t15 with the changes?

Only because getting 4 pieces from LFR will take a while

[Freia]

Probably, but the set bonuses work nicely together, especially considering the mastery nerf.

I won't deny they have synergy. I have tried it. I used normal t14 head and shoulders and normal t15 legs and gloves(not the most ideal for maximizing mastery but it is what I have) to test out the 2p T15. I could pretty much spam holy radiance with no issue at over 16000 spirit buffed with more than enough mana leftover. It was also only normal mode Iron Qon. I think the extra stats you get from upgrading the 2p t14 will overtake the benefit of the T14 2p, especially when you get to heroic level gear.

[Kurzior]

As far as the daybreak change, that's an interesting one. In theory, its a nice change to our AoE rotation choices. Instead of having to choose between casting an extra HR and wasting a daybreak proc, we can go to 2xHR-> HS -> LoD without sacrificing procs we would like to use.

For the mastery nerf .... let's be honest. Pally mastery is getting out of hand, almost to the point where its better for us to just chain cast to generate shields rather than try to conserve mana and heal reactively. At least reigning the scaling in a bit will make that a choice rather than a default playstyle. There's not much fun (at least for me) in just spam casting for the entire fight with no regard for mana because I can just overheal like mad but shield big hits when they come.

That said, I would have preferred to have them lower the cap on our IH shield rather than nerf our stat scaling so we would be more inclined to look at other stats like haste or crit. Although it sounds extreme, I would like to see our mastery scaling stay the same and instead cap the IH shield at something like 10% of our health pool (about 45k in 510 level gear) rather than the 30% it is now. Then you get to a point where our mastery has something of soft cap where we can start to look at other stats as more valuable. On top of that, a low cap on the mastery shielding means our healing efficiency comes back into play since our base healing (which costs mana) will be a larger chunk of our potential throughput compared to our mastery shields (which don't cost anything).

[Freia]

As far as the daybreak change, that's an interesting one. In theory, its a nice change to our AoE rotation choices. Instead of having to choose between casting an extra HR and wasting a daybreak proc, we can go to 2xHR-> HS -> LoD without sacrificing procs we would like to use.

For the mastery nerf .... let's be honest. Pally mastery is getting out of hand, almost to the point where its better for us to just chain cast to generate shields rather than try to conserve mana and heal reactively. At least reigning the scaling in a bit will make that a choice rather than a default playstyle. There's not much fun (at least for me) in just spam casting for the entire fight with no regard for mana because I can just overheal like mad but shield big hits when they come.

That said, I would have preferred to have them lower the cap on our IH shield rather than nerf our stat scaling so we would be more inclined to look at other stats like haste or crit. Although it sounds extreme, I would like to see our mastery scaling stay the same and instead cap the IH shield at something like 10% of our health pool (about 45k in 510 level gear) rather than the 30% it is now. Then you get to a point where our mastery has something of soft cap where we can start to look at other stats as more valuable. On top of that, a low cap on the mastery shielding means our healing efficiency comes back into play since our base healing (which costs mana) will be a larger chunk of our potential throughput compared to our mastery shields (which don't cost anything).

Please explain to me what format of raiding is efficiency not in play? I see other healing classes moving to stacking other stats other than spirit while paladins for the most part still need to unless they overgear the content or have a raid team stacked with mana cooldowns. I also don't know what game you have been playing over the last few years but there has really not been a time where it was a good to stop all casting, you really should always be casting something. Pure reactive healing has not been the way to heal for a few expansions now and many times could lead to preventable deaths. If they were to implement the changes you suggest, they would have to compensate.

[Dubalicious]

Spirit is a throughput stat, in a roundabout sort of way. Spirit allows you to cast more spells, spells generate HoPo, HoPo allows you to cast more spells, spells generate healing. It's not a throughput stat in the traditional sense that it modifies spells directly, but it allows you to cast more of those spells.

There's also no *requirement* to stack spirit. Take, for example, Eloderung, who has opted to go straight Crit/Mastery going as far as reforging out of spirit. It's a low spirit build and he performs just fine compared to those who spirit stack. (He also has the #3 parse for Heroic Megaera to support it's viability)

[Xs]

As far as the daybreak change, that's an interesting one. In theory, its a nice change to our AoE rotation choices. Instead of having to choose between casting an extra HR and wasting a daybreak proc, we can go to 2xHR-> HS -> LoD without sacrificing procs we would like to use.

Its technically a nerf, as its 75/150% instead of 100% x2

[Gilthresa]

Its technically a nerf, as its 75/150% instead of 100% x2

yes but with 2 piece wouldn't it be 225% with two stacks or 200% only?

[Xs]

yes but with 3 piece wouldn't it be 225% with two stacks or 200% only?

2 piece makes it 225% at max

[Gilthresa]

2 piece makes it 225% at max

and i guess that means we get an extra global as well.

[Deleted]

I still dont think it will be a good move to switch the t14 4p bonus until you got a full set of 522 gear. The set bonuses from t15 isnt that good. Even with the 2p buff on t15.
I really hope they will atleast change the 4p bonus for t15.

[Kurzior]

Please explain to me what format of raiding is efficiency not in play? I see other healing classes moving to stacking other stats other than spirit while paladins for the most part still need to unless they overgear the content or have a raid team stacked with mana cooldowns. I also don't know what game you have been playing over the last few years but there has really not been a time where it was a good to stop all casting, you really should always be casting something. Pure reactive healing has not been the way to heal for a few expansions now and many times could lead to preventable deaths. If they were to implement the changes you suggest, they would have to compensate.

I've been playing the same game as you. I don't like the style of healing that's becoming the norm. That's my point. If the new way to heal is just to maximize throughput at all times with no regard for anything like resource management, active regen or triage .... then quite frankly, screw healing, I'll just go play my enhance shaman. Maximizing throughput for the duration of the fight is a dps mentality and I don't like the fact that healers are having to play that way most of the time now. Of the 8 bosses I've killed in Throne, none of them made me feel like I needed to put a lot of effort into managing my resources or triage healing. They made me feel like if I stopped healing for any real length of time, people were going to die, and I'm even healing with a disc priest who can mitigate incoming damage pretty well, which should let me feel like I can have some downtime for regen. Personally, I want to go back to something like tier 11 when healing meant controlling your throughput and balancing that with resource management. There would be periods of heavy healing where you had to go balls to the wall and periods where your goal was to get as much mana back as you could and spend as little as possible. That was a much more dynamic playstyle and that's where I want to see things go.

As far as efficiency, I'm talking healing vs. overhealing. Pallies are by far the worst overhealers right now, and its because we're pushed that way. Why would we play any other way? We're not punished for excessive overhealing or encouraged to be effective with our heals. We're encouraged to spam healing to build mastery shields. Mastery is so strong at the current gear levels that we don't give a crap how much overhealing we really do. The mastery shields do most of the work. Shaman are in a much better place than us right now in terms of playstyle (at least to my view) because they cannot afford to just spam chain and rain. They're mastery functions in a way that makes them want to triage heal. If there's not a lot of damage, they can pool mana for when the damage ramps up and they can maximize their mechanics. Of course, fights aren't really designed with that playstyle in mind, which is why shaman tend to be far behind on a lot of fights. They're designed for the constant throughput style.

[Pasture]

Its technically a nerf, as its 75/150% instead of 100% x2

Once you drop the T14 4pc that's not really a problem. HS isn't off cooldown to benefit fast enough for x2. With T15 we can only cast one HS per two HR. In any standard AoE healing situation this is a buff. If you're only going to cast one HR then that's another matter.

[nightfalls]

There's also no *requirement* to stack spirit. Take, for example, Eloderung, who has opted to go straight Crit/Mastery going as far as reforging out of spirit. It's a low spirit build and he performs just fine compared to those who spirit stack. (He also has the #3 parse for Heroic Megaera to support it's viability)

It isn't that bad, but his heal comp is him, two priests with hymns and three(!) shamans with tide. That and he got 100k mana from SOI also.

[Deleted]

Spirit is a throughput stat, in a roundabout sort of way. Spirit allows you to cast more spells

No, spirit is purely a regen stat, there's never going to be a situation where stacking spirit results in higher healing done than you would stacking your best output stat.

[Xs]

Once you drop the T14 4pc that's not really a problem. HS isn't off cooldown to benefit fast enough for x2. With T15 we can only cast one HS per two HR. In any standard AoE healing situation this is a buff. If you're only going to cast one HR then that's another matter.

Indeed, hence why I said it was technically a nerf, if it came in as at a point where T14 was unchanged it would be a nerf, and in our current situation its a nerf, but with a 6 second rotation rather than a 4 second, its a buff

No, spirit is purely a regen stat, there's never going to be a situation where stacking spirit results in higher healing done than you would stacking your best output stat.

It can be classed as a throughput stat when you're talking fight throughput, obviously not pure numbers throughput