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  1. #221
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Our Brewmaster monk was getting cracked on Primordius. He was getting globaled. Literally. He was ilvl 514. We brought his prot paladin instead. Ilvl 493. Got him on the first try with his prot paladin. 17 ILVL LESS. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. It was great. I laughed and laughed and laughed. It's still funny. Their OP and I love it. You shouldn't be complaining about it. You should abuse the crap out of it.
    493 ilvl? Okay so you mean normal and not heroic?

    Then your tank was just not as good with monk as he maybe should've been. Because really, there is not that much difference anyway.

  2. #222
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorant View Post
    493 ilvl? Okay so you mean normal and not heroic?

    Then your tank was just not as good with monk as he maybe should've been. Because really, there is not that much difference anyway.
    Yea normal. It's the same player. He's phenomenal with both. He's literally tanked every other fight in that dungeon no problem. Monks just get cracked on that fight. Healing his paladin was 10 million times easier.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  3. #223
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    Easy to learn yes, maybe protwarrior is easy aswell. but really mastering it is the key. Paladin have alot of buttons, knowing when to push one at the right time and still keep shield on a very high uptime, its not that easy, you will not learn this 1hr /played. As a druid you have to watch for proccs, try to keep dotuptime as high as possible, ofc you can just put the 4 buttons on a castsequence makro, but you will miss out on mangleprocs loose dps hitting thrash and not FF or FF not thrash. You dont just use execute on warriors and dont care about AM anymore, you could but would die alot.
    Kinda stopped reading after paladins have alot of buttons.
    Best joke today, really made my day, i literally have HALF (20 or so less keybinds) on my paladin compared to warrior...

  4. #224
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    Kinda stopped reading after paladins have alot of buttons.
    Best joke today, really made my day, i literally have HALF (20 or so less keybinds) on my paladin compared to warrior...
    Which is funny because I have 6 classes at 90 (warrior, hunter, paladin, warlock, priest, DK), and paladin is the only one that actually needs 5 action bars for me. I can mention 20 keybinds for you on paladins just on the top of my head.


    CS, HotR, AS, HW, HoW, Cons, J, SotR, WoG, SS, T6 talent, SoI, SoT, SoR, Reckoning, Rebuke, BoM, BoK, fist of justice, RF cast/cancel.
    Okay, so that is 20 binds without even starting with cooldowns, but hey maybe you play without them. But some more

    DProt, GoAK, AD, DA, BoP, HoSalv, HoSac, HoF, DS, SoL, LoH, BL, Cleanse, AW, HA, HoPur

    That is 16 more.

    Now we are not even getting macros which paladins got use of a ton of cancelaura macros and similar. Also, having 2-3 different macros for cast@targets with you hands for certain fights etc. etc. Not mentioning pots and stuff because that is equally shared between all classes.

    So first you are gonna need a cancelaura for BoP/Bubble. Another one for Salv.
    Had som fights having to have 3 different BoPs and 3 different HoSac binds. The very least you should have is 2. (1 for you, 1 for the other tank). Etc etc, can easily bring your key binds up to 50+ when you add all together.
    Also gonna need a bind for HoSalv on the other tank and yourself.

    So if you manage to play a paladin with 20 key binds, I really have no idea how you are playing your paladin.
    The only class that nearly rivals my paladin in keybinds is the hunter, simply due to the insane amount of macros needed for a hunter.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yea normal. It's the same player. He's phenomenal with both. He's literally tanked every other fight in that dungeon no problem. Monks just get cracked on that fight. Healing his paladin was 10 million times easier.
    Sorry, but if he was getting Globaled on primordius on his Monk, he is not a phenomenal Monk. He might be a good Paladin, but there is no way in hell he's a good monk if he's dying that easily with that gear. My Monk was only 505ish when I did primordius and the logs showed that I took more damage than my Paladin co-tank, but the healers commented that I was far easier to heal (less spikes), I don't think I ever dropped under 50%, and when I did I could heal it back myself.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Our Brewmaster monk was getting cracked on Primordius. He was getting globaled. Literally. He was ilvl 514. We brought his prot paladin instead. Ilvl 493. Got him on the first try with his prot paladin. 17 ILVL LESS. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. It was great. I laughed and laughed and laughed. It's still funny. Their OP and I love it. You shouldn't be complaining about it. You should abuse the crap out of it.
    Yeah sure, globalled. This is from the pala healer that couldn't heal megara "because you have to move and stuff" Forgive me if I take the stuff you spew with a pinch of salt.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Our Brewmaster monk was getting cracked on Primordius. He was getting globaled. Literally. He was ilvl 514. We brought his prot paladin instead. Ilvl 493. Got him on the first try with his prot paladin. 17 ILVL LESS. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. It was great. I laughed and laughed and laughed. It's still funny. Their OP and I love it. You shouldn't be complaining about it. You should abuse the crap out of it.
    That was normal, and your monk got globaled. If its the same player doenst mean he can play both. How did he die. If he had alot of stack plus the huge dot primordius gets from evolution, and didnt use a cooldown, almost every tank will die. A brewmaster due to dodge should take less dmg on that fight than a pala. So you say Palas are op, cause your brewmaster monk died. Funny almost everyone thinks that they are almost on the same lvl. If you have to change from 514 monk to 493 paladin on a NH fight where brewmasters are equal to palas maybe even better. And say its not the player but the class, plus the ilvl difference, there has to be something.


    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    Kinda stopped reading after paladins have alot of buttons.
    Best joke today, really made my day, i literally have HALF (20 or so less keybinds) on my paladin compared to warrior...
    I do have a warrior Tank and a Palatank. Good thing you stopped reading, its about dps skills, I quess you have logs to prove that you really play your paladin on a high lvl, and do alot of dps.
    If you are telling me you literaly have 20 less keybindings on you pala that do dps, how is that possible cause you dont even have so many spells to use for dmg.
    Writing two sentences and even admitting you didnt read the whole text picking out 5 words, saying you use half the skills on you pala than on you warrior, and not providing any prove that you infact are pushing the right buttons/maximizing dps and shield uptime,kinda just proves my point.
    Last edited by Viromand; 2013-05-03 at 08:36 AM.

  8. #228
    Going back to the main point of this thread to begin with:

    I can answer why Prot paladins have not been nerfed.

    It's because Warrior Defensive stance is getting buffed.

    And also because the Blizz systems developers understand at least a little bit more than moutbreathers getting fired up misinterpreting what numbers in Recount/Skada or WoL parses actually mean in the context of overall survivability.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    CS, HotR, AS, HW, HoW, Cons, J, SotR, WoG, SS, T6 talent, SoI, SoT, SoR, Reckoning, Rebuke, BoM, BoK, fist of justice, RF cast/cancel.
    Out of plain curiosity,

    Question 1: When do you actually push SoT or SoR post-nerf? (really)
    Question 2: When do you actually have to cancel RF? (no, really). Then of course if you don't, you don't actually need a bind for RF.
    Question 3: Do you actually use both BoK and BoM binds? Personally I just bind the one that I need to use (typically BoK since in raid, shamans will bring BoM).

    Quote Originally Posted by underdogba View Post
    I can answer why Prot paladins have not been nerfed.

    It's because Warrior Defensive stance is getting buffed.
    Is this even a serious post? (If it is, read the patchnotes more carefully).
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-05-03 at 09:33 AM.

  10. #230
    @voidspark i think he was just trying to prove a point. Of course mains have better keybinding, Still I play both, Tankwarrior and Protpala both as alts, lvling a monktank. Im not saying im perfect in any way, but I do know that maxdps rotation while maintaining uptimes and using SotR wisely cant be learn in 1hr/played, and they have alot more dps skill to use than a warrior.

    I play my a druid since vanilla started tanking karazhan, raided top30 BT and Sunwell as a tank. Got logged as a catdruid in ulduar on almost every fight top50 was still Tank but we had so many tanks in our 25m group. I still get ranks as a druid last tier and this tier. Druid rotation is really easy, but perfecting dps without losing any mitigation optimizing rage usage I could do alot more. Sometimes I have the problem that my other tanks dont do any aggro even with vengeance, and i have to stop attacking thats another point. My dotuptime could be alot better, beeing a RL always distracts a bit even when a fight goes well. Sometimes I concentrate to much on boss mechanics that really dont matter that much.


    On one tortos nh kill i tanked tortos, as a druid, I concentrate on dps but mostly on SD uptime, and after the fight i looked at the logs, and had 68.7% uptime on SD, after I used calculated how much would have been possible, due to fight length. It would have been 69.8%. My uptimes on dots where quite good aswell. But I hardly doubt i would be able to do that on a heroic fight when learning the new mechanics and stuff like that.

  11. #231
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halifax View Post
    Sorry, but if he was getting Globaled on primordius on his Monk, he is not a phenomenal Monk. He might be a good Paladin, but there is no way in hell he's a good monk if he's dying that easily with that gear. My Monk was only 505ish when I did primordius and the logs showed that I took more damage than my Paladin co-tank, but the healers commented that I was far easier to heal (less spikes), I don't think I ever dropped under 50%, and when I did I could heal it back myself.
    He is a phenomenal monk. He just gets smacked on that fight and his paladin doesn't. I don't care or need to have my guild reviewed by players on forums who don't know what the fuck they are talking about. The paladin was easier to heal. In fact we found the opposite from your experience. Not only did the paladin take less dmg, he took less spike dmg (even in his shitty ilvl) he also self healed for alot more and healing him was much easier. The paladin in almost 20 item level less killed the fucking boss. .

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-03 at 09:55 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Yeah sure, globalled. This is from the pala healer that couldn't heal megara "because you have to move and stuff" Forgive me if I take the stuff you spew with a pinch of salt.
    I don't really care what you take for granted or not. We one shot meg now (in fact as soon as out dps got some gear we started one shotting it regularly) and it was precisely because we ignored assholes on forums who did nothing but critique our raid and play style. I take anything you say as down right stupidity so I guess were about even. See while I may be upset about how difficult they've made this tier, I also don't quit regardless of what assholes on forums may take with a "grain of salt" or not.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-03 at 09:58 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    That was normal, and your monk got globaled. If its the same player doenst mean he can play both. How did he die. If he had alot of stack plus the huge dot primordius gets from evolution, and didnt use a cooldown, almost every tank will die. A brewmaster due to dodge should take less dmg on that fight than a pala. So you say Palas are op, cause your brewmaster monk died. Funny almost everyone thinks that they are almost on the same lvl. If you have to change from 514 monk to 493 paladin on a NH fight where brewmasters are equal to palas maybe even better. And say its not the player but the class, plus the ilvl difference, there has to be something.


    Dodge is a funny thing. If he doesn't dodge he gets crushed. He wasn't dodging. We took his paladin in. Killed the boss with him having 14 item levels less. Paladins don't need a nerf clearly even though they out preform all tank specs. I get the feeling most people here abuse the crap out of prot paladins and don't want to see it go away and that's fine. I say get on board while you can. Brewmasters are not equal to paladins on that fight. No tank is equal to paladins this tier. Simple as that. Enjoy it while you can. Blizzard will nerf them, it's as simple as that. Then you'll all look around and agree they needed a nerf because your all geniuses in hindsight or worse you'll rage on the official forums about how unwarranted this is because you've all been abusing the crap out of it to progress your raid. Either way I'm glad we got on board and can enjoy it while it's here. 5.4 will see some big changes I think.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-05-03 at 10:11 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  12. #232
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Out of plain curiosity,

    Question 1: When do you actually push SoT or SoR post-nerf? (really)
    Question 2: When do you actually have to cancel RF? (no, really). Then of course if you don't, you don't actually need a bind for RF.
    Question 3: Do you actually use both BoK and BoM binds? Personally I just bind the one that I need to use (typically BoK since in raid, shamans will bring BoM).
    1. This tier, SoT almost never, SoR primordius. So yeah, in this tier those are very situational. I have somtimes used SoT on Durumu. But still enough time for me to have it bound. Last tier it was used extremely frequently.
    2. Every fight with tank swaps.
    3. Yeah, fast buffing after people getting combat ressed, whichever I am assigned to. Typically BoK as you say but not always shamans in 10 man raids.
    Last edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2013-05-03 at 10:32 AM.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    He is a phenomenal monk. He just gets smacked on that fight and his paladin doesn't. I don't care or need to have my guild reviewed by players on forums who don't know what the fuck they are talking about. The paladin was easier to heal. The paladin in almost 20 item level less killed the fucking boss. That's all that counts.
    Well he was not the only one telling you that it wasn about the class. Noone said you should exchange him but do you really think, on all raid monktanks are very strong, except in your Raid.
    Your Tank cant be as bad cause he killed the boss with a 493 palatank, on of our first kills we killed it with a warrior that had ilvl 498. In terms of mitigation not even a pala is that good and takes less dmg if not played correctly, than a 514 geared monk or any other class. Still you dont see it. Do you even know why the Monk died so fast? Maybe he didnt use a cooldown at the right time, to many dotstacks cause the other tank didnt taunt. there are so many reason why he could have died so fast(well not to say i believe he got globalled), and none of them even slightly say he is a bad monk or a bad player.

    You posted that, people tell you your monk did something wrong, nobodys perfect, so about 5-6 people tell you that, still you say it isnt true, mainly cause he a friend of yours. why not take the criticique, look at logs or recount to look up how he died, maybe next time a pala will not help you on another fight, cause your monk did that same mistake again, and his pala doenst have the gear. .
    There is no way of saying that you wouldnt have killed the boss with the monk aswell. Cause everything you told us points to that you could have. Mitigation wise no tank is so far ahead that an ilvl difference of 20points lets you take less dmg than the one 20ilvl above you. As a prot, with that gear you are mostlikely hit and exp capped, dont have alot of mastery, and haste is not that high either. So either he does not play his monk as good as his pala, or he died of very bad RNG and any other tank would have died there too.

    And im ignoring the fact that monks are the class that gets bursted the least.

    And lets not forget your data that says paladin are OP and they should be nerfed comes from 1 person you like and he cant be a bad monk, cause you killed 1 boss with a low geared paladin instead of an "OK" geared Monk. On a fight where Tankdmg isn the real problem on nh, monk may even be a bit better at same ilvl, due to the mechanics of the fight cause monsk scale well with all the buffs you can get, pala only with haste mastery. And dodge/parry are so strong on that fight, and with haste and crit the monk has alot of dodge plus the parry he gains automaticly, both prevent the dot from stacking, blocks or SotR will not.
    Last edited by Viromand; 2013-05-03 at 10:54 AM.

  14. #234
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    He is a phenomenal monk. He just gets smacked on that fight and his paladin doesn't. I don't care or need to have my guild reviewed by players on forums who don't know what the fuck they are talking about. The paladin was easier to heal. In fact we found the opposite from your experience. Not only did the paladin take less dmg, he took less spike dmg (even in his shitty ilvl) he also self healed for alot more and healing him was much easier. The paladin in almost 20 item level less killed the fucking boss.
    Still says nothing. Your player was obviously better at playing paladin than monk. In another group that paladin geared with 514 gear is dieng and the monk with 20 item levels lower is killing the boss.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoskadosk View Post
    If Blizzard went back to "stand in front of boss and keep aggro" it would be the most stupid thing they could ever do. Tanking in TBC and ICC was a snoozefest, on Loatheb (Naxx) I even went AFK once everyone had the buff because there was nothing else to do since no one did any threat. Oh, and on Blood Queen I was reading on forums and watching videos on YouTube until air phase. Very exciting stuff.

    For once it's actually engaging to tank, because not only do you need to think about your aggro, you need to think about your damage, healing and raid utility. Paying that extra attention to trinket procs and timing DPS cooldowns with Hero and pots actually matters now, it makes a difference. How can that be wrong?

    We're not here to "take your jobs", what has happened is that Blizzard has given us a larger role than before, our performance is much more important now than ever. If you're on top of progression, your damage, healing and raidwide CDs can make or break a fight. How is just standing still and pressing 2 buttons better than that?
    Lol no, I'm in no way defending taunt-spamming pre-mop stamina bots. Tank gameplay is actually nice now, I'm loving active mitigation and things. But what I don't support, is tanks being top on dps/hps meters. Because think of it: I really can understand that you're having tons of fun while having #1 positions on meters, but ask yourself: do your fellow raiders who heal/dps have the same fun while watching tank doing their job with passive abilities?
    And please, spare me the GC crap about meters nonrelevant. Meters ARE relevant.

  16. #236
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    70% of the healing in those logs from the Protection Paladin was self-healing.
    Not sure why that matters. It just means that they only had to heal him 30% of the time (a lot of which was probably accidental smart heals and not direct heals) and focus on everyone else in the raid.

  17. #237
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by l33t View Post
    Lol no, I'm in no way defending taunt-spamming pre-mop stamina bots. Tank gameplay is actually nice now, I'm loving active mitigation and things. But what I don't support, is tanks being top on dps/hps meters. Because think of it: I really can understand that you're having tons of fun while having #1 positions on meters, but ask yourself: do your fellow raiders who heal/dps have the same fun while watching tank doing their job with passive abilities?
    And please, spare me the GC crap about meters nonrelevant. Meters ARE relevant.
    Really, when I played dps, I have no issue with tanks being above me. I just do not see the issue. Tank dps =/= dpsers dps. I do not compare myself with tanks if I play DPS, and couldnt care less if tanks do twice my dps. Current system makes tank dps relevant any makes which buttons a tank push other than his survival buttons matter, further differenting a bad tank from a good tank making a tanks player skill more important. I see no reason why to change this just so the dps that butthurt over tanks being above them on some fights.

    Another question is, why should tanks be below dpsers on dps? Not saying they should do more really, but tanks should do enough for it to matter in the raid group, and really see no benefit of tanks doing trivial dps as they have been doing in previous expansions.

  18. #238
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by l33t View Post
    Lol no, I'm in no way defending taunt-spamming pre-mop stamina bots. Tank gameplay is actually nice now, I'm loving active mitigation and things. But what I don't support, is tanks being top on dps/hps meters. Because think of it: I really can understand that you're having tons of fun while having #1 positions on meters, but ask yourself: do your fellow raiders who heal/dps have the same fun while watching tank doing their job with passive abilities?
    And please, spare me the GC crap about meters nonrelevant. Meters ARE relevant.
    Instead of our raiders competing against DPS they are now competing against tanks as well now. Nothing else has changed, why would that be less fun? Maybe if you don't like your tanks its less fun....

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I don't really care what you take for granted or not. We one shot meg now (in fact as soon as out dps got some gear we started one shotting it regularly) and it was precisely because we ignored assholes on forums who did nothing but critique our raid and play style. I take anything you say as down right stupidity so I guess were about even. See while I may be upset about how difficult they've made this tier, I also don't quit regardless of what assholes on forums may take with a "grain of salt" or not. [COLOR="red"]

    .

    Your playstyle only got critiqued because you are poor and to be honest the others were carrying you. Your logs were comically bad, but ofc thats because the fight is so unfair against holy palas because *we have to move* while other holy palas are outshining you by a fucking mile because they actually used the appropriate heals. Call people on the forums assholes, thats fine , but you're the one who stubbornly refused to take onboard any advice whether it be tactic or class related. If I recall on that fight you hardly used LOD because "people weren't stacked" even though it has a 30 yard range. When questioned about it you gave the usual weaksauce crap about "I've played since wotlk and am awesome, can't be me" It's funny how all the people who disagree with you "don't know what the fuck they are talking about" yet they are all streets ahead of you in progression isn't it? Anyway, enough about your inability to listen and penchance to lash out at anyone who disagrees with you.

    "Phenominal" tanks don't get crushed on primordius normal, doesnt happen. Your anecdotal evidence of "lol 1 shot with a pala" but monk died means either monk isn't as phenominal as you may think or your healers are naff. I'm not disputing palas are the strongest tanks atm but if a monk dies with such a gear disparity its not because prot palas are OP, its because something else went wrong.

    Once again, forgive us for taking your drivel with a pinch of salt but evidence strongly suggests you don't really know what you are talking about but others do.

  20. #240
    Prot Paladins have always been fairly OP since they became viable. I had switched early Cata from Paladin to Warrior mostly because Warriors were rarer and seemed more interesting than the Paladin, but both went to the wayside after this "active mitigation" shit came out. IMO worst change ever and one that didn't need to be here.

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