20 Man Mythic: Success or Failure?

[GiefEpixe]

Why did it matter to balance 25/10 from a player's perspective? Was there anyone raiding 10m seriously and comparing their progress to 25m or vice versa?

I don't get why "easier balancing" is always brought up as a reason for the change. I mean any serious raider must have been aware of the differences in balance, consequently regarding the two sizes as separate races.

There was the best 25m group and the best 10m group. Two world-firsts. Where is the issue that I don't get?

[voidillusion]

Turn it around. 10 man Mythic means saying F&*^to everybody who likes playing in larger groups and/or communities.

Didn't the previous formula of 10/25 mythic address that issue also?

[clevin]

For their stated design criteria, making it possible to design a raid that could require any class, it was probably a success. From a participation standpoint it feels like a failure.

To me, it was a mystifying decision to go with 20 vs 15. For years, people had clearly been preferring 10 to 25. They kept incentivizing 25s and still more people did 10s. So, its they want a fixed size to balance against (reasonable at that difficulty), why pick a size closer to the LESS popular size? Wierd.

[Magnosh]

Turn it around. 10 man Mythic means saying F&*^to everybody who likes playing in larger groups and/or communities.

But people that ask for 10 man mythic also say it should have a bigger group counterpart for the rest of the community that doesn't like small groups. This is the difference, we want a choice not a us or them.

IF the decision back in the end of MoP was to go 10 man mythic only you guys would be whining because 25 man was the thing that worked for your environment and we would support you guys we would support it should have stayed as it was with both sizes.

[GiefEpixe]

Turn it around. 10 man Mythic means saying F&*^to everybody who likes playing in larger groups and/or communities.

Why? People who enjoy the bigger size more could simply group up and continue raiding that size. No one was forced to raid only 10m.

But obviously way more players enjoyed doing the highest content in those smaller groups. So let's take away that option and force everyone into the bigger groups, the raid size that people were enjoying way less?

[Deja Thoris]

As I'm not a native English speaker, I'm perfectly fine with not having optimal English grammar.

To get back to your point, so 19 man Mythic is fine. Less than 20...

Stop making retarded posts please. You may not be a native English speaker but missing the point on purpose is disingenuous.

[Jaylock]

20 man mythic teams killed the chance of causal guilds mythic progression. As always, this move has nothing to do with making game better, but making game easy for them to develop. It may not be a failure, but it is a shit decision from my perspective.

I disagree with this pile of horse shit you just spewed.

Casual guilds have always had the opportunity to run mythic. My guild for example only raids 2 days a week 3 hours a night, and we are on Mythic Archimonde right now. So dont give me that BS about this change killed casual guilds because it didn't, if anything casual guilds killed themselves because of their pride / entitlement issues. "Oh i can't raid the hardest difficulty on 10 man, im not even going to try to recruit a few more to get to 20". "oh everything should be made easy for me in terms of logistics and mechanics, it should all be handed to me on a silver platter"

20 man mythic in my opinion has been the best compromise between the 10-25 man debate, and it solves a lot of problems with mechanics changing / scaling from lesser difficulties to the hardest difficulty. Blizzard accomplished their goal.

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Why? People who enjoy the bigger size more could simply group up and continue raiding that size. No one was forced to raid only 10m.

But obviously way more players enjoyed doing the highest content in those smaller groups. So let's take away that option and force everyone into the bigger groups, the raid size that people were enjoying way less?

What I still don't understand is if a guild is a 10 man "casual" guild they still have the option to bring 10 players to raids. The raids flex in difficulty for them based on how many players they bring. So in that regard, the changes to raiding has helped 10 man casual guilds.

What percentage of 10 man guilds even did heroic / mythic raiding when it was available in that size. Probably minuscule, same how 20 man guilds are today, most stick to heroic, and only a smaller percentage even do mythic. And with the group finder, its easier than ever for 10 man guilds to recruit and bring their roster to the required 20 man for mythic if they so choose.

[Eleccybubb]

Honestly. Mythic should just have a Flexible option instead of fixed imo. 10-30 is fine. Hell up it to a cap of 40 for all difficulties because at the end of the day it's still choice.

[Jessicka]

Raiding difficulty should be dictated by how hard the encounter is, not because of how hard it is to organise. That's like saying harder games should have longer load times. WoD did not lose over half the mythic playerbase because it's encounters were just as hard as they have always been, it lost over half the mythic playerbase because most of it was 10m players and when given the option of 20m or nothing they chose nothing.

It should, but with the number of specs available, 10 man creates an enormous delta of difficulty depending on composition before you even pull the boss. I can remember in Cataclysm when we were doing 10s that some nights a fight could be almost trivial when a certain player showed up, but almost wasn't worth trying if they didn't. That sort of thing never really cropped up in 25s or 20s because there was always space to cover.

[Magnosh]

I disagree with this pile of horse shit you just spewed.

Casual guilds have always had the opportunity to run mythic. My guild for example only raids 2 days a week 3 hours a night, and we are on Mythic Archimonde right now. So dont give me that BS about this change killed casual guilds because it didn't, if anything casual guilds killed themselves because of their pride / entitlement issues. "Oh i can't raid the hardest difficulty on 10 man, im not even going to try to recruit a few more to get to 20". "oh everything should be made easy for me in terms of logistics and mechanics, it should all be handed to me on a silver platter"

20 man mythic in my opinion has been the best compromise between the 10-25 man debate, and it solves a lot of problems with mechanics changing / scaling from lesser difficulties to the hardest difficulty. Blizzard accomplished their goal.

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What I still don't understand is if a guild is a 10 man "casual" guild they still have the option to bring 10 players to raids. The raids flex in difficulty for them based on how many players they bring. So in that regard, the changes to raiding has helped 10 man casual guilds.

What percentage of 10 man guilds even did heroic / mythic raiding when it was available in that size. Probably minuscule, same how 20 man guilds are today, most stick to heroic, and only a smaller percentage even do mythic. And with the group finder, its easier than ever for 10 man guilds to recruit and bring their roster to the required 20 man for mythic if they so choose.

Did you ever run a guild or raid lead mythic? The cross realm group finder just made it harder to run a guild, from the stand point of a player who doesn't care much about a guild and rather pug mythic it helped sure but the non commitment it brings just makes it harder on the guilds. We spent more time replacing pugs that were either utter shit or just left after something drop for them than actually fighting boss's.

And btw, spending 3h a day with multiple officers taking turns and spaming different macros, some more serious some more friendly to get the attention of players is not self entitlement. Spending time going back to normal / heroic just to be able to recruit players getting out of LFR and showing them what raiding was teaching them and gearing them is also not self entitlement.

[Jaylock]

Did you ever run a guild or raid lead mythic? The cross realm group finder just made it harder to run a guild, from the stand point of a player who doesn't care much about a guild and rather pug mythic it helped sure but the non commitment it brings just makes it harder on the guilds. We spent more time replacing pugs that were either utter shit or just left after something drop for them than actually fighting boss's.

And btw, spending 3h a day with multiple officers taking turns and spaming different macros, some more serious some more friendly to get the attention of players is not self entitlement. Spending time going back to normal / heroic just to be able to recruit players getting out of LFR and showing them what raiding was teaching them and gearing them is also not self entitlement.

Yes, in fact, I did run a 25 man guild in WoTLK successfully from Naxx 25 through Heroic 25 LK. It was easy keeping my roster because people liked the culture of my guild, and they enjoyed my raid leading. I also was the main raid lead of a 25 man BC guild, making it to Sunwell in progression.

I'd say your idea of managing a guild is wrong then. You jump through unnecessary hoops because of issues other than just keeping players. Have you taken a look at your core leadership? Have you assessed how well new players / trials are taking to the leadership and culture of your guild? If any of that is out of wack, of course you wont have people staying.

I'm in my guild because I instantly enjoyed the leadership of the guild. They are laid back, easy to get along with, and they were accepting of new players regardless of their gear situation (to a point, now they only recruit full heroic geared / mythic geared players as we are progressing on Mythic Archimonde). I wasn't geared to where the guild was at when I joined, but I was patient and joined the off night raids and such until I got geared and got accepted as a main raider in my guild.

Building a core group that genuinely desires to stay together and progress takes time, and it takes relationship building. I liked the leadership from the beginning, but that doesn't mean I became friends / built a friendship with them immediately, it took time. If you are unwilling to befriend newbies, and invite them to talk in mumble, invite them to do 5 mans with you, invite the trials to do other activities other than just raiding... and if you just stick to your core 5 friends when you do off night stuff, you can kiss your guild goodbye, because I guarantee, people wont want to stay around when the guild leadership is filled with self-absorbed pricks (not saying your guild is, but many are).

[Cebel]

I would argue that while that may have been the case for some guilds, especially the ones that did die on higher pop servers, there was a disproportionately harsh punishment to players that were still on the servers towards the lower end of the spectrum. Players had already began to migrate to higher population servers after the 10/25 split in Cata in search of 25 recruitment, stabilized a bit in MoP, but put the ax to a solid amount of the guilds that remained on those servers. This expansion seemingly sparked a pretty extreme amount of server transfers of people hunting for mythic raid groups that were extremely hard to recruit for or find on lower pops, and only became worse as the content drought sucked away more people.

Mythic created a huge boom of activity and united the raid community into a more solid and competitive state than it's been in for years for those that could be on the servers already, or transferred to, to benefit. It was a huge plus there. But let's not act like there wasn't any downsides.

Low pop servers are blizzards fault, but not mythics fault.

Move servers. Its 25$. Its not a fortune.

However blizzard does need to merge servers, cause theres zero point to having servers with no on on them.

[GiefEpixe]

What I still don't understand is if a guild is a 10 man "casual" guild they still have the option to bring 10 players to raids. The raids flex in difficulty for them based on how many players they bring. So in that regard, the changes to raiding has helped 10 man casual guilds.

What percentage of 10 man guilds even did heroic / mythic raiding when it was available in that size. Probably minuscule, same how 20 man guilds are today, most stick to heroic, and only a smaller percentage even do mythic. And with the group finder, its easier than ever for 10 man guilds to recruit and bring their roster to the required 20 man for mythic if they so choose.

Not entirely sure why you're bringing casual guilds up since I was only referring to the hardest difficulty.

Only a minuscule amount of players aiming at that hardest difficulty has always been the case. What's new now is that the amount of players in that branch decreased unproportionally in comparison to the sub drops, i.e. way less players are able to do the hardest difficulty—and not because of lack of skill.

[babybopAF]

I think they should have kept 10man for highest difficulty alongside 20. Both 25 and 10 both were difficult depending on boss. I find 20 man raiding less enjoyable due to the fact that it's a less tight group. As someone that has social anxiety it is hard getting used to talking in a 10 man group but i managed cause you learned to know the people and not that many people were talking at the same time. And now in a 20 man group it is hard to feel more than just a number and join into conversations.

It's not that I dislike 20 man, I just rather had it as 10 man.

You have social anxiety speaking into a headset? Start lifting ASAP.

[Eleccybubb]

You have social anxiety speaking into a headset? Start lifting ASAP.

Believe it or not there are people who suffer from it. I had a couple of people with it back in an old guild but they listened and understood so tbh I don't give a fuck if they speak or not. If they perform well then that's good enough it shows they have listened to what is being explained or watched a guide extensively.

[Jaylock]

Not entirely sure why you're bringing casual guilds up since I was only referring to the hardest difficulty.

Only a minuscule amount of players aiming at that hardest difficulty has always been the case. What's new now is that the amount of players in that branch decreased unproportionally in comparison to the sub drops, i.e. way less players are able to do the hardest difficulty—and not because of lack of skill.

I still disagree with you. Even by Blizzards statistics that they recently shared, participation in Mythic 20 raiding is about on par with the participation when it used to be 10-25 man.

So the fabricated problem that you (and others) claim that mythic failed lies solely on you and your guild unwilling to adapt. Blizzard gave everyone many months of notice ahead of the release of WoD so you could prepare, and you didn't. Is that a problem of the hardest difficulty being adjusted to be only 20 man? No. Its a problem of people unwilling or unable to adapt.

Something along the lines of the Darwinism effect? Only the strong will survive?

[Kazgrel]

Low pop servers are blizzards fault, but not mythics fault.

Move servers. Its 25$. Its not a fortune.

However blizzard does need to merge servers, cause theres zero point to having servers with no on on them.

Players shouldn't need to pay a server transfer fee due to Blizzard's ineptitude in dealing with server populations. Easier thing is to not pay at all and either suffer on a shit server or simply not bother with the game at all.

[Cannibalus]

Hi boyz!

From a raiders perspective, was 20 man mythic raiding a success or failure in your eyes?

Should they have kept the 25 man setup for the highest form of raiding, or do you like the 20 man format now?

Remember, in vanilla we had 20 man raids that were extremely fun: ZG, AQ20

http://www.wowprogress.com/

Counting 1600 guilds that killed 13/13 Mythic, cba to count all the others. You do the statistic

[Thelxi]

Definitely a success.

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Definitely a success.

[Cannibalus]

Not entirely sure why you're bringing casual guilds up since I was only referring to the hardest difficulty.

Only a minuscule amount of players aiming at that hardest difficulty has always been the case. What's new now is that the amount of players in that branch decreased unproportionally in comparison to the sub drops, i.e. way less players are able to do the hardest difficulty—and not because of lack of skill.

1600 guilds x 20 players = 32000 players that killed 13/13 Mythic, the number of players still progressing Mythic might be 10 times or more, and we're not counting Pugs.

Basicly if you're not doing Mythic... you're either bad or on a shit server

Edit: 9790 guilds that did atleast first boss on Mythic.

9790 x 20 = 195800 Mythic Raiders worldwide atleast. My guild has a roster of about 35 people as we're preparing for Legion, so considering some guilds do the same, the numbers are higher.