Guess Jaina's still a fem-varian then.

[Friendlyimmolation]

How about covering fire/magic etc? Horde was in better position - its their duty as ally to help Alliance retreat. But Sylvanas and Co just leave battle - no support not even warning. And as we see Alliance made it out but it takes Varian as sacrifice. So there was chance - Sylvanas just afraid to die.

Except sylvanas took the time to save Baine, voljin etc. If she is as selfish as everyone tries to make her out to be she wouldn't have bothered. The alliance shouldn't have relied on horde support, just as the horde shouldnt rely on alliance support.

[Mehrunes]

Sometimes perception is everything. It might *seem* like you have been left to die by your allies.

So I will defend Jaina here.

Remind me again why the Alliance ally themselves with people who always have the potential to betray them?

It seems that Blizzard's love for the Horde is as strong as ever.

Alliance members have the potential to betray each other 50 times a day. I don't see your point.

Except sylvanas took the time to save Baine, voljin etc. If she is as selfish as everyone tries to make her out to be she wouldn't have bothered. The alliance shouldn't have relied on horde support, just as the horde shouldnt rely on alliance support.

Not to mention the part about "duty to help Alliance retreat" was pulled out of Highwhale's ass. Contrary to Sylvanas' yells which you can hear as an Alliance (which they tried to bullshit is not the case), the only thing the Alliance and the Horde communicated about their roles is that the Horde will cover the Alliance's flank. Nothing about helping them retreat. They did cover the flank for quite some time and it's not even certain if the Alliance is then swarmed from multiple sides once the Horde pulls back. They could very well be just overpowered by the bunch of important demons they faced and the demons fighting the Horde could have pursued them during their retreat (which would explain Vol'jin's death since he isn't wounded during the playable part).

[Stormdash]

How about covering fire/magic etc? Horde was in better position - its their duty as ally to help Alliance retreat. But Sylvanas and Co just leave battle - no support not even warning. And as we see Alliance made it out but it takes Varian as sacrifice. So there was chance - Sylvanas just afraid to die.

Covering fire? All the Horde's attention in that stage of the scenario are on the attack they are under with their backs to a cliff. No, not felbats. I suppose casters can hit them, but they are mostly there for RP for what I can tell, Sylvanas firing on them relentlessly. The Horde Player Character's attention is actually forced down the rise, where demons are running up in waves (a la the Icecrown quest where you secure the tower for the Argent Crusade). This is where Baine gets injured, and all the Sylvanas audio about pulling back refers to getting back to ledge to redraw their line, not leaving the Broken Shore altogether. They are pinned down.

If the Alliance had been on the right side of Krosus and the Horde on the left, nothing would have been different, the Horde would have ridden straight into Gul'dan's surprise and the Alliance would have been powerless to help.

Seriously, a Horde template character and 15 minutes, and a brain, would remove any mystery here. It is also apparent that Sylvanas and Varian had quickly formed a forged-in-battle regard for one another, certainly in the context of that invasion, making it an even less rational interpretation that she abandoned him unfairly.

[Darth-Piekus]

It would have been nice if someone could link those dialogues of Sylvannas during her command of retreat just to see what they said exactly.

[Combatbutler]

https://youtu.be/hMxtw6k46Zg?t=871

[Dreknar20]

LOL!!!
What duty?????
The two factions have been mortal enemies and reluctant allies at best.

Both sides get overwhelmed and their armies routed. People died in the process.
Why exactly is this such an intense finger pointing game?

[Arrashi]

Actually friend, i believe you are wrong. This is actual recording of that dialogue:

[Zulkhan]

LOL!!!
What duty?????
The two factions have been mortal enemies and reluctant allies at best.

Man what are you smoking.

Didn't you see the successful trade of rainbows, flowers and bunnies occurring in Ashran?

[Darth-Piekus]

The youtube dialogues dont show any retreat. It cuts at some point. Arent there any other dialogues? I remember someone posting them Word by Word.

[Combatbutler]

The youtube dialogues dont show any retreat. It cuts at some point. Arent there any other dialogues? I remember someone posting them Word by Word.

The retreat will be in the cinematic, they slightly changed it on the ptr it seems, Sylvanas isn't calling for retreat prior to the cinematic, like she used to. Also She saves the other leaders with Val'kyr now.

https://youtu.be/GOI4bMHm2rQ?t=1268

[Mehrunes]

The retreat will be in the cinematic, they slightly changed it on the ptr it seems, Sylvanas isn't calling for retreat prior to the cinematic, like she used to. Also She saves the other leaders with Val'kyr now.

https://youtu.be/GOI4bMHm2rQ?t=1268

I don't see that Val'kyr tbh. But noticed a named Eredar with nice version of Archie's gear (gimme for my Warlock) that I haven't seen before.

[Combatbutler]

I don't see that Val'kyr tbh. But noticed a named Eredar with nice version of Archie's gear (gimme for my Warlock) that I haven't seen before.

There you go

https://youtu.be/TeaGa5TUjwY?t=1445

[Tripzzz]

That concept was entirely tied to the orc's belief "better dead than slaves", one even Thrall has faith about. But that concept is applicable when you're standing your ground against an enemy trying to conquer you, where the literal only choices are give up or die fighting.

While this is vaguely applicable about the big picture regarding Legion, it didn't in the specific case of the Broken Shore. In that scenario were Horde and Alliance trying to conquer the demon's grounds, to prevent them to enter Azeroth in full force and close the Tomb of Sargeras once and for all. In that scenario, "give up" and "dying" aren't the only options, the third option is retreat and come up with a better plan to contain the Legion's menace, along saving the highest amount of troops to make an use of them for another, possibly more successful and differently planned attempt rather than wasting them for an assault revealing to have absolutely no hope of success.

Of course random orcs would follow that mantra in every single occasion because random people have no vision but leaders have one and understand what is better for their troops and their actual chances of victory. Hell, even those primitive Iron Horde fucks still shown a vague understanding of concepts like tactical retreat and military strategies in general (mostly thanks to Garrosh, I guess) at least those few times they didn't Leeeeeeeroooy'd around.

I'm pretty sure "Lok'tar ogar" means death or victory, even if an escape route is available. The orcs don't yell "Lok'tar ogar, UNLESS there is a way out!"

They purposely limit themselves to only these two options because running away is cowardly. It's sink or swim.

- - - Updated - - -

Alliance members have the potential to betray each other 50 times a day. I don't see your point.




Not to mention the part about "duty to help Alliance retreat" was pulled out of Highwhale's ass. Contrary to Sylvanas' yells which you can hear as an Alliance (which they tried to bullshit is not the case), the only thing the Alliance and the Horde communicated about their roles is that the Horde will cover the Alliance's flank. Nothing about helping them retreat. They did cover the flank for quite some time and it's not even certain if the Alliance is then swarmed from multiple sides once the Horde pulls back. They could very well be just overpowered by the bunch of important demons they faced and the demons fighting the Horde could have pursued them during their retreat (which would explain Vol'jin's death since he isn't wounded during the playable part).

Wtf kind of rebuttal is that?

[Zulkhan]

There you go

https://youtu.be/TeaGa5TUjwY?t=1445

Am I wrong or Thrall ends up beaten too?

[Mehrunes]

Wtf kind of rebuttal is that?

Context, operate in it. I was replying to a post saying this: "Remind me again why the Alliance ally themselves with people who always have the potential to betray them?". The point is that "potential to betray" is not Horde exclusive, as such that point is meaningless. Got it now, or do I need to explain it really, really slowly?

[Tripzzz]

Alliance members have the potential to betray each other 50 times a day. I don't see your point.




Not to mention the part about "duty to help Alliance retreat" was pulled out of Highwhale's ass. Contrary to Sylvanas' yells which you can hear as an Alliance (which they tried to bullshit is not the case), the only thing the Alliance and the Horde communicated about their roles is that the Horde will cover the Alliance's flank. Nothing about helping them retreat. They did cover the flank for quite some time and it's not even certain if the Alliance is then swarmed from multiple sides once the Horde pulls back. They could very well be just overpowered by the bunch of important demons they faced and the demons fighting the Horde could have pursued them during their retreat (which would explain Vol'jin's death since he isn't wounded during the playable part).

Care to show us the evidence for this? because i just looked though the alliance side, and Alliance does not hear Sylvanas yelling. So who is the one spreading bullshit?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTJg9UU24sk

[Mehrunes]

There you go

https://youtu.be/TeaGa5TUjwY?t=1445

Cheers. Kinda weird that the youtuber had the Val'kyr on mouseover and the tooltip said Thrall nontheless. Although I suppose it works a bit like a mount or taxi for NPCs here.

[Tripzzz]

Context, operate in it. I was replying to a post saying this: "Remind me again why the Alliance ally themselves with people who always have the potential to betray them?". The point is that "potential to betray" is not Horde exclusive, as such that point is meaningless. Got it now, or you I need to explain it really, really slowly?

Horde is far more likely to betray the Alliance. Which is why your rebuttal is trash. There is potential on both sides, but which is more probable?

[Combatbutler]

Am I wrong or Thrall ends up beaten too?

Every leader gets beaten up. They make their final stand directly at the cliff.

- - - Updated - - -

Care to show us the evidence for this? because i just looked though the alliance side, and Alliance does not hear Sylvanas yelling. So who is the one spreading bullshit?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTJg9UU24sk

You hear her at least once

https://youtu.be/AVtVUqU3HUM?t=2115

[Zulkhan]

Every leader gets beaten up. They make their final stand directly at the cliff.

Sylvanas and Vol'jin still look quite healthy at that point. I guess Vol'jin will get his injuries during the cinematic.

Btw, is Lor'themar somewhere or I missed him for whatever reason?