[Megathread] DotA 2

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

In pubs, sure.
But in the pro scene a number of these "low played" heroes see way more play than the pub stompers. Oracle, Chen and Io frequently sees bans or picks in the pro scene.

This isn't a "low played vs high played" issue, it's an issue that comes from nobody wanting to play supports in pubs. As a support player I think it's BS that every big Arcana goes to cores and/or carries, I'm not surprised at all since they are way more picked (and easier to play, shots fired) as well as they are "more fun" late game when you can potentially wreck the enemy team.
Support life is hard and you'll never ever get the same recognizion as the cores/carries, you see this in the TI 2016 as well when post game people in the client can vote for MVP players. It's ALWAYS the cores getting the MVP votes even though the supports save, set up kills or makes teamfights work out. That without considering how much less they got to work with in terms of economy compared to the cores, the unsung MVPs are to me always going to be the supports.

*edit
Here's how pub games go in drafting in my experience.
- I ask people what they want to play and that I can play Support or Offlane (solo)
- complete silence from 1 or more players.
- nobody picks shit and I have to pick a support without knowing what anyone else on my team will play (or where)
- I end up on a Dazzle, Shadow Demon or Oracle.
- Other 4 picks farm dependant cores.
- I have to solo support with the responsibility to ward, defend safelane and have nobody capable of roaming or setting up kills.
- I also have no way to farm up for items since the other 4 have huge gold requirements.
- then I get blamed for not having wards, mek, roaming to help kills or pushed lanes.

.... yeah.

[StrawberryZebra]

Io isn't played because he's very hit and miss and requires a good partner to go on global ganks and such with, in the pro scene he gets banned out a lot (or heroes he can combo with gets banned out).
Jugg only gets played in pubstomping because he's hard to contest without coordination, which is true for a lot of heroes, I wanted IO from the start as I play him (and other supports) exclusively. It's not like they can make regular armor items for Io so an Arcana would be perfect, make his model more spectacular, his balls more exciting and just in general make him more flashy. Jugg is already one of the heroes with the most cosmetic options, Io has none... NONE.

Because Jugg is the sort of hero who CAN have lots of cosmetics without it messing up how his model looks or his readability. You can change his mask, add a hat, mess around with his clothing, footwear, weapons, colour palete even replace his wolfskin with a backpack or change the look of his healing wards. He looks different with cosmetics on, sure, but he still looks like the Juggernaut.

If people didn't complain about "immersion breaking" you could add an awful lot more to Jugg too. Everything from decking him out like a typical Final Fantasy protagonist or a Super Hero theme or hell, even Sci-Fi Jugg would work.

What can you do with Io? I mean... Change the colour? Okay, thats not really worthy of an Arcana though. Change the shape? Eeeh, not really, floating cubes tend to get people sending bug reports rather than parting with cash. Change the shape AND the colour and you've got something that no longer resembles Io any more. At best you could add a couple of props without messing with how readable it is too much, but again a moustache isn't really Arcana worthy. There's just not very much scope for doing anything at all interesting with Io.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Because Jugg is the sort of hero who CAN have lots of cosmetics without it messing up how his model looks or his readability. You can change his mask, add a hat, mess around with his clothing, footwear, weapons, colour palete even replace his wolfskin with a backpack or change the look of his healing wards. He looks different with cosmetics on, sure, but he still looks like the Juggernaut.

If people didn't complain about "immersion breaking" you could add an awful lot more to Jugg too. Everything from decking him out like a typical Final Fantasy protagonist or a Super Hero theme or hell, even Sci-Fi Jugg would work.

What can you do with Io? I mean... Change the colour? Okay, thats not really worthy of an Arcana though. Change the shape? Eeeh, not really, floating cubes tend to get people sending bug reports rather than parting with cash. Change the shape AND the colour and you've got something that no longer resembles Io any more. At best you could add a couple of props without messing with how readable it is too much, but again a moustache isn't really Arcana worthy. There's just not very much scope for doing anything at all interesting with Io.

What can be done on jugg that hasn't been done already? I mean I have a genuine Dragon Sword for Juggernaut and a number of other rare items. I think I got 6 mounts for Mirana.

There's loads of things you can do for an Io Arcana.
- His form can be more chaotic as in right now he has small orbs floating within his core, make those more visually pleasing by making them "pop" out of his core from time to time.
- His attacks can be changed from the small light dot to being a Comet with a tail.
- His wisps can have the same Comet look but when they explode they leave a "glitter" effect on the point for a couple seconds.
- His Tether could be more intense and maybe change visually depending on how much HPS or MPS he's transferring.
- His damage reduction could make himself and his Tether target grow larger or the "shine" effect could be more "stellar".
- His ultimate could look like a Comet impact when it's going to a point and his "return point" can be a white star look.

Then we could go into maybe making item effects look different on Io.
- Bottle (maybe urn makes him glow green for the duration)
- Urn (maybe urn makes him glow purple-ish for the duration)
- Heart (maybe heart changes Io to a red-ish model)
- Salve, Tango and other items.

Obviously I'm a fan of Io and I can imagine him with "stellar" or "comet" type cosmetics that IMO would look epic.

Jugger Arcana? Probably going to end up with some form of Omnislash bounce effects where you can see his trail, his healing ward looks different (already done many times), his Sword... maybe made longer? His mask? meh, nothing that's been done before. Bladestorm maybe get a different spin style, not that they can change that too much.

- - - Updated - - -

... Io in the first game of the TI 2016 finals. "Unplayed" my ass.

[Mellomania]

One step closer to slacks on the aegis

[Deleted]

balance seems to be pretty bad. some heroes are insane in pubs.

timbersaw on lane with that passive is like when you go on toilet but you really don't have to and it makes it hard

[RobertoCarlos]

faceless void/mirana seems pretty popular this TI

[Deleted]

faceless void/mirana seems pretty popular this TI

mirana is very strong with aghanims. it makes starfall all the time.

I tried it too and it is amazing for farming aswell.

very strong

about faceless void I don't know, but they changed him very much and I am still confused

[StrawberryZebra]

Obviously I'm a fan of Io and I can imagine him with "stellar" or "comet" type cosmetics that IMO would look epic.

Unfortunately, the kinds of things you're suggesting would simply add visual noise to the game. It might look cool, but it would come at the cost of making it very hard to see whats going on when Io is involved. At worst, if they added purpley space effects you might end up mistaking his spell effects for Enigma's.

Silly hat cosmetics might look out of place perhaps, but they don't add all kinds of crazy particle effects that obscure whats happening. What you're suggesting is pure spectacle over any kind of real substance imo. I get that Arcana are supposed to be flashy, but look at the ones for Legion Commander or Lina. You can still tell which hero they are, what they're doing, and you're not greeted with an explosion of particles whenever they cast a spell. They look suitably epic without adding any extra visual noise into the mix.

Its why heroes like Axe, Juggy and WR get lots of cosmetics - They don't add any extra mess that affects game play.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Unfortunately, the kinds of things you're suggesting would simply add visual noise to the game. It might look cool, but it would come at the cost of making it very hard to see whats going on when Io is involved. At worst, if they added purpley space effects you might end up mistaking his spell effects for Enigma's.

Silly hat cosmetics might look out of place perhaps, but they don't add all kinds of crazy particle effects that obscure whats happening. What you're suggesting is pure spectacle over any kind of real substance imo. I get that Arcana are supposed to be flashy, but look at the ones for Legion Commander or Lina. You can still tell which hero they are, what they're doing, and you're not greeted with an explosion of particles whenever they cast a spell. They look suitably epic without adding any extra visual noise into the mix.

Its why heroes like Axe, Juggy and WR get lots of cosmetics - They don't add any extra mess that affects game play.

I'm not saying to add ALL of them, those were just some suggestions. Io is already a very low key "visual noise" hero compared to others, adding a more impressive teleport visual to his relocate at the very least would be cool.

- - - Updated - - -

about faceless void I don't know, but they changed him very much and I am still confused

Faceless Void is a viable pick for core (safelane carry) as well as Offlane or even support. That means he has many roles in a team lineup to be picked in, furthermore his Chronosphere sets up a lot of combos with other heroes that are currently high in the meta.

You can look for yourself but of the top of my head Chronosphere works with:
Tinker, Timber, Mirana, Queen of Pain, Kunkka, Huskar (harder), Tidehunter, Drow, Luna, Medusa, Terrorblade and just about every single int hero except Batrider but with Batrider you can do a pickoff and then drop a zoning Chronosphere.

Faceless Void is just very sustainable with time leap, which is also a strong mobility tool. He also has a bash that goes through magic immunity which is very strong lategame. Time Dilation is also a nightmare to play against in lanes if you try to harass Void out of the lane, he's just a very strong pick for most situations now- kinda like Mirana.

[Lysah]

In pubs, sure.
But in the pro scene a number of these "low played" heroes see way more play than the pub stompers. Oracle, Chen and Io frequently sees bans or picks in the pro scene.

This isn't a "low played vs high played" issue, it's an issue that comes from nobody wanting to play supports in pubs.

Disagree, there are plenty of support heroes that get played literally ten times more than Io, there's still at least one support per team in virtually every game above 1k MMR. Earthshaker is currently around 10th most popular hero in the game, Lion and Lina (even though she's mostly played as a mid now probably) are around 20, CM and WD come in not too much past that. Omni has traditionally been one of the most popular picks and one of the highest winrates in pubs. When Lina Arcana was created, she was considered a support only. Zeus is played as a support from time to time now. There are plenty of support immortals going around after this TI. CM has the single best arcana in the game (imo).

Wisp is a special case because the hero is literally not a hero, he's a floating buff for a friendly hero. He can't do anything by himself at all, bar going mid and somehow beating people who are retarded and using ult to gank. For that reason, nobody will ever want to play him in pubs, because nobody trusts their teammates to not be total failures. It's definitely premature to say that Io isn't popular because supports aren't popular. The only heroes that are as unpopular as him are chen arc and visage, all heroes that take incredible micro to play well. Several support picks are very popular heroes.

Also, Resolution has no idea how to play clinkz. Maxing shadow walk first? Daedalus instead of Bloodthorn? Come on dude....

[Mellomania]

West->East cycle holds for now it looks like.

No aegis for slacks though D:

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Disagree, there are plenty of support heroes that get played literally ten times more than Io, there's still at least one support per team in virtually every game above 1k MMR. Earthshaker is currently around 10th most popular hero in the game, Lion and Lina (even though she's mostly played as a mid now probably) are around 20, CM and WD come in not too much past that. Omni has traditionally been one of the most popular picks and one of the highest winrates in pubs. When Lina Arcana was created, she was considered a support only. Zeus is played as a support from time to time now. There are plenty of support immortals going around after this TI. CM has the single best arcana in the game (imo).

Wisp is a special case because the hero is literally not a hero, he's a floating buff for a friendly hero. He can't do anything by himself at all, bar going mid and somehow beating people who are retarded and using ult to gank. For that reason, nobody will ever want to play him in pubs, because nobody trusts their teammates to not be total failures. It's definitely premature to say that Io isn't popular because supports aren't popular. The only heroes that are as unpopular as him are chen arc and visage, all heroes that take incredible micro to play well. Several support picks are very popular heroes.

Also, Resolution has no idea how to play clinkz. Maxing shadow walk first? Daedalus instead of Bloodthorn? Come on dude....

http://read.navi-gaming.com/en/team_..._heroes_at_ti6

Io in top 5 picked/banned heroes at TI 2016.
It's just that in pubs people won't play supports or pick setups that Io works with. On top of that Io is one of those heroes that really depends on good coordination and communication, both are lackluster until you reach higher MMR. Io also sees way more action (ban/pick) in captains mode, again meaning pubs doesn't pick him because pubs in general are shit games.

Wisp can't do anything? That's funny because in pro games he's always hunted out on the backlines... he amps up your cores and makes them tanky as all hell, his buffs makes any other hero a lot more sustainable in laning phases. He's also extremely good for surprise ganks or quick defensive moves to help counter enemy ganks, he can even be used for rat plays.

Io is good, extremely good- just not in pubs because pubs are trash.

[StrawberryZebra]

Io in top 5 picked/banned heroes at TI 2016.
It's just that in pubs people won't play supports or pick setups that Io works with. On top of that Io is one of those heroes that really depends on good coordination and communication, both are lackluster until you reach higher MMR. Io also sees way more action (ban/pick) in captains mode, again meaning pubs doesn't pick him because pubs in general are shit games.

I don't consider a hero to be good if you need to attach lots of conditions to it. Maybe thats just me. Sure, Io is absolutely fantastic if you can get the perfect conditions for him to shine, teamed up with a Tiny or a CK you can dominate the game. But if you put someone else in their absolute best environment, then they'd do amazingly well too. Its not a very objective test. Focusing on how a hero does on average is a much better metric, which means looking at how they perform in less than ideal situations and, honestly, Io leaves a lot to be desired.

Compare that to another support like Lich or Witch Doctor who you can pick more or less whenever and still get results. They don't require anything special, nor any participation from their team in order to be sucessful. Furthermore, you can't "soft ban" them out by getting rid of all their synergies - They work well enough with a variety of line ups. Hell, picking them doesn't even give away what kind of stratergies you're looking to play.

Its fine saying that Io is picked or banned a lot at pro level, really. But for most of us, pubs are all we're going to get to play and at best we're going to have a friend who's sorta okay at playing Sven and we're are going to have to make the best of the situation. Unless you happen to be me, of course, I play with Dendi every second game. I know its the real one because he only speaks Russian and instalocks Pudge every single time

Wisp can't do anything?

The point was rather that Io can't do anything alone, he's entirely dependent on another hero for his combat effectiveness. Without a Tether buddy he's got nothing. With a bad Tether buddy, he's got nothing. He amplifies the effectiveness of one allied hero, but has little power to affect a match without cooperation.

[JalJaze]

While the The International was amazing (Fnatic did very well, was not expecting 4th position right after EG) . This was going on, Its a bit old news and I am a bit reluctant about the source, has any one seen similar news?

[Lysah]

The point was rather that Io can't do anything alone, he's entirely dependent on another hero for his combat effectiveness. Without a Tether buddy he's got nothing. With a bad Tether buddy, he's got nothing. He amplifies the effectiveness of one allied hero, but has little power to affect a match without cooperation.

Yeah, which is why he won't get played in pubs. It's not because people don't like support, it's because people who do like support still want to be able to affect the game other than buffing someone and crossing their fingers.

[PizzaSHARK]

In pubs, sure.
But in the pro scene a number of these "low played" heroes see way more play than the pub stompers. Oracle, Chen and Io frequently sees bans or picks in the pro scene.

This isn't a "low played vs high played" issue, it's an issue that comes from nobody wanting to play supports in pubs. As a support player I think it's BS that every big Arcana goes to cores and/or carries, I'm not surprised at all since they are way more picked (and easier to play, shots fired) as well as they are "more fun" late game when you can potentially wreck the enemy team.
Support life is hard and you'll never ever get the same recognizion as the cores/carries, you see this in the TI 2016 as well when post game people in the client can vote for MVP players. It's ALWAYS the cores getting the MVP votes even though the supports save, set up kills or makes teamfights work out. That without considering how much less they got to work with in terms of economy compared to the cores, the unsung MVPs are to me always going to be the supports.

*edit
Here's how pub games go in drafting in my experience.
- I ask people what they want to play and that I can play Support or Offlane (solo)
- complete silence from 1 or more players.
- nobody picks shit and I have to pick a support without knowing what anyone else on my team will play (or where)
- I end up on a Dazzle, Shadow Demon or Oracle.
- Other 4 picks farm dependant cores.
- I have to solo support with the responsibility to ward, defend safelane and have nobody capable of roaming or setting up kills.
- I also have no way to farm up for items since the other 4 have huge gold requirements.
- then I get blamed for not having wards, mek, roaming to help kills or pushed lanes.

.... yeah.

Now you know why I quit Dota 2.

faceless void/mirana seems pretty popular this TI

Void will always be popular because Chronosphere wins games. Potm is trending because her Agh's is retardedly fucking overpowered. 1050 damage on a single target if both secondary attacks hit it, and 600 damage on everything else in the AOE. That's better than most ultimates and it's instant, has an 8 second cooldown, and only costs like... what, 160 MP? I have no idea how that Agh's made it through internal testing. I'm guessing it made it through because they just really wanted potm to see play again.

West->East cycle holds for now it looks like.

No aegis for slacks though D:

Game 3 and 4 were pretty underwhelming. I feel like DC just kind of ran out of steam or something. Then again, just about every game is going to be underwhelming compared to EG-EHOME game 1 - how the hell do you top that?

[Lysah]

I think DC just got exhausted. Two high stress games again E-fucking-G and then like an hour break and immediately play against a team that effectively 2-0d you already, 2-0d every single other team they've come across, doesn't seem to have any weakness, always drafts different heroes...

w33 definitely threw in game 4, they had a game they basically could not possibly fuck up, and then w33 goes and tries a stupid gank in enemy jungle within blink range of the base, dies and feeds a 1200g kill, baits timber into dying and feeding like 800g, AND NS dies and loses the gem, which then costs them Rosh, all of their outer towers, and a 20k gold swing. People keep trying to argue they didn't throw and juts got outplayed but honestly, they made so many mistakes, SO MANY questionable swaps and just poor ability use, timbersaw missing chains completely, poor chakram use, they were all just exhausted I think. It was a very long day for them and I definitely think they were feeling it by the end of game 4.

Game 3 I think they just got outdrafted honestly, they would have had to play remarkably well to come back from how much they got crushed early game. An argument could be made for how they could've/should've adapted to their weak lanes but in the end it was going to be very hard to come back from the first 15 minutes.

One thing I've noticed Wings pulling out is the blink dagger game. Virtually every game they have 3 or 4 sources of blink on their team (including heroes like Storm with this assessment). Movement definitely the strongest "stat" in this game if you ask me. They even bought blink on a fucking Death Prophet. Blink+self euls is probably overpowered too.

[PizzaSHARK]

I think DC just got exhausted. Two high stress games again E-fucking-G and then like an hour break and immediately play against a team that effectively 2-0d you already, 2-0d every single other team they've come across, doesn't seem to have any weakness, always drafts different heroes...

w33 definitely threw in game 4, they had a game they basically could not possibly fuck up, and then w33 goes and tries a stupid gank in enemy jungle within blink range of the base, dies and feeds a 1200g kill, baits timber into dying and feeding like 800g, AND NS dies and loses the gem, which then costs them Rosh, all of their outer towers, and a 20k gold swing. People keep trying to argue they didn't throw and juts got outplayed but honestly, they made so many mistakes, SO MANY questionable swaps and just poor ability use, timbersaw missing chains completely, poor chakram use, they were all just exhausted I think. It was a very long day for them and I definitely think they were feeling it by the end of game 4.

Game 3 I think they just got outdrafted honestly, they would have had to play remarkably well to come back from how much they got crushed early game. An argument could be made for how they could've/should've adapted to their weak lanes but in the end it was going to be very hard to come back from the first 15 minutes.

One thing I've noticed Wings pulling out is the blink dagger game. Virtually every game they have 3 or 4 sources of blink on their team (including heroes like Storm with this assessment). Movement definitely the strongest "stat" in this game if you ask me. They even bought blink on a fucking Death Prophet. Blink+self euls is probably overpowered too.

I said it on reddit and probably got downvoted but I don't think heroes need nerfs so much as items need nerfs. Items have been subject to absolutely fucking absurd power creep over the past three or four patches and it's causing issues. Blink dagger needs a MASSIVE nerf now that heroes like SK and ES have Agh's that give them initiation options. I mean, people are buying blink on potm when she already has a mobility skill. They buy it on Slark. They buy it on Timbersaw. I'm surprised they don't buy it on fucking Antimage and Qop. Hideously overpowered item.

And yeah, I really think TI7 should put a full day between semi-finals and grand finals, or at least most of a day. Do all of the showboating and weird musical acts and shit between the two series. It's very unfair that the upper bracket team gets to go in fresh while the lower bracket team goes in shortly after a grueling series against the third place team. If you tried that shit in athletics they'd laugh you out of the arena because it's brutally unfair to one competitor.

I do think they just gave up at the end of game 4. w33 basically deliberately fed a kill as Slark when they were almost (but not quite) done. I wonder if they just decided fuck it, let's just end the game now, we're tired and need rest and we're already millionaires anyway. Can't say I'd blame them, I'd be tempted to do the same.

[Longview]

And yeah, I really think TI7 should put a full day between semi-finals and grand finals, or at least most of a day. Do all of the showboating and weird musical acts and shit between the two series. It's very unfair that the upper bracket team gets to go in fresh while the lower bracket team goes in shortly after a grueling series against the third place team. If you tried that shit in athletics they'd laugh you out of the arena because it's brutally unfair to one competitor.

winners bracket advantage, at least they don't start 1-0

[Lysah]

IMO winners bracket already gets plenty of advantage, Wings had to win 3 series to get there, DC had to win 6. Plus, since it's an odd number of games it's already inherently unfair - one team gets 3 games of first pick/dire advantage/whatever they pick from the won coin toss and the other gets 2. Give the winner's bracket team a guaranteed coin toss win and call it quits, that's already plenty of advantage on top of having an "easier" bracket. Most grand finals in major tournaments have been honestly meh, the best games are usually the first games of the day for the involved teams e.g. ehome vs EG, so even if you don't care about the health of the second place team, at least do it for the fans imo. The grand final should be the best series of the tournament every single time and they should do everything they can to make sure that happens, including ensuring the second place team is fresh and ready to compete at their best.