Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[fathom81]

i dont know if has been asked before, and sorry if its a silly question, but why is it that in most stuff i read, high elves are portrayed with Blood Elves bodytype instead of Night Elves?
Arent High Elves the ones that stood near the well of eternity 'aka' azjara's minions/followers?

edit: nvm i have mistaken high elves with Highborne.

[matrix123mko]

They most likely were overall. I just care to dismiss the notion that Elves are purely magic oriented or that they had.... Arcane Powered Holy Priests..

You are right, but there are some hints that there were, aside of light worshippers, some Arcane Powered Holy Priests.

Blood elves follow, or at least did when they were high elves, the Holy Light just like humans and dwarves. Unlike the two others however, who derive their power from faith alone, high elf and blood elf priests seem to derive theirs from other sources. The first of these was the Sunwell, brought to end by the Scourge during the Third War when it was used to resurrect the Kel'thuzad.

There were also some "arcane priests" in Suramar, who used moon magic to deal damage and heal themselves, so we can assume that arcane can provide ways to look like a priest. If nightborne can, they may be some among blood elves. However, we don't know if playable Nightborne are arcane priests or rather an oversight.

[elbleuet]

A dying group fading away hanging onto an adjective does not change this. Nor does that adjective give them the right to exclude Blood Elves from the definition. The travel of direction for the Alliance High Elves is clear. They will sire Half Elves, or turn into Void Elves. All the while their numbers will keep falling until they completely assimilate with human culture.

"They will sire" "They will turn"

Once again, you're confusing your own wishes wih facts.

They will sire Half Elves

The last half elf ever introduced in Warcraft is Arator. That was back in 2007. Yet 12 years later you seem to see half-elves everywhere whereas there are only 3 or 4 half-elves recorded.

or turn into Void Elves

You don't "turn" void elf. Void elves are blood elves who were born from an unfinished and unexpected transformation. Stop saying bs.

All the while their numbers will keep falling until they completely assimilate with human culture.

In BFA, more High elves were introduced in Stormwind, Stromgarde, Telogrus Rift and Boralus. But their number will keep failing that's right.
The irony.

[FlubberPuddy]

And no one says that there aren't playable Tauren, Orcs, Trolls, Humans, or Dwarves.

No one's been saying the high elf race isn't playable either. They're talking about playable Alliance High Elves. If you can't tell the difference then go through this entire thread as that difference has been stated over and over.

Get your head out of wherever it is stuck and learn that the request is about a group of elves on Alliance being asked to be made playable. Sorry that just cuz High Elf is used it's causing you confusion. That's Blizzard's fault for naming a group of Alliance Elves "High Elves" who are also of the race "high elf".

It'd be like if they called Stormwind Humans just human. So you play Human of Human race. Just like a Zandalari is a Troll but call themselves Zandalari, or how Darkspear are Trolls but call themselves Darkspear.

[LilSaihah]

Lol this is some grade-A BS. If you’re one that ascribes to the “Blood Elves are High Elves” logic then on two occasions Ion has also stated that Blood Elves are a flavor of high elves and that Void Elves are another flavor of high elves. Then he also said during the QA that Void Elves were meant to give something like a Blood Elf to the Alliance.

So we know they’re of the same race and not some “celestial abomination” which is your own personal term that has never been shared with the developers themselves.

Maybe, I dunno.
I don't really think they're the same species because then you'd need to make the case that Forsaken and Humans are the same thing, when it seems pretty silly to me to suggest that.
But that's your call man.

Also thinking of Void Elves as celestial abominations is genuinely the only way I find them interesting. You're a horror beyond space and time! That's way more interesting than "blue elf with tentacles".

I wonder if you also believe the Draenei are a different species/race from Eredar. Or if you still can’t wrap your head around the fact that Worgen are still of the Human race.

I'd probably say the Eredar are a distinct species from the Draenei, yeah. They're distinct on an elemental level. Anything that has a different elemental alignment is probably a distinct species.

I dunno about Worgen. Honestly it only really seems relevant for furry RP and that's gross. _{don't @ me furries}

Here’s something you’d have to prove before stating Void Elves are a different species: will their kids plop out as Void Elves too?

Probably. I dunno if they'll even be able to have kids. Maybe they reproduce via binary fission, like Voidwalkers do?

As a bonus, I presume you think Highmountain Tauren who were blessed by Cenarius to be nature abomination and separate species from Mulgore Tauren?

I don't know if I'd say they're a different species, depends on whether they can interbreed. I don't think they wouldn't be able to, so they're probably the same species.
I don't think I'd call them a nature abomination; they have to actually be abominable to be an abomination.

And finally, none of this species/race differentiation because as stated as nauseum the High Elf request isn’t about a race but a group of elves that already exist on the Alliance becoming playable. But I guess if you can’t wrap your head around these other facts then you probably also can’t with this essential one.

You aren't really treating it much like a request when you're arguing so much about it.
I don't even hate the idea. I think it might work if it's done really well. I just haven't seen the case where it's done really well.

[Doctor Funkenstein]

No one's been saying the high elf race isn't playable either. They're talking about playable Alliance High Elves.

DING DING DING! We have a winner.

Just whiners complaining that the Alliance doesn't have everything. Note that the Horde doesn't have any dwarves to play? Yeah.

Want to play a High Elf? Make a High Elf, which is available to the Horde faction.

(And seeing as how the Alliance got Dark Iron Dwarves, which makes no fucking sense, if they do add "High Elves" [ie, with blue eyes], they damn well better be a Horde allied race just out of spite of that idiotic decision on their part.)

[FlubberPuddy]

DING DING DING! We have a winner.

Just whiners complaining that the Alliance doesn't have everything. Note that the Horde doesn't have any dwarves to play? Yeah.

Want to play a High Elf? Make a High Elf, which is available to the Horde faction.

(And seeing as how the Alliance got Dark Iron Dwarves, which makes no fucking sense, if they do add "High Elves" [ie, with blue eyes], they damn well better be a Horde allied race just out of spite of that idiotic decision on their part.)

Do you have any Horde Dwarf NPCs? What are you on about?

"Alliance got Dark Iron Dwarves, which makes no fucking sense" <-- ???? Did you play Cataclysm? Where a sect of Dark Irons led by Moira came back along with the renewed Council of Three Hammers?

Now I see what makes you type in your posts. You have an ignorant view of what's developed in-game.

I guess this is an example of being ignorant somehow giving a free pass to spout some BS.

[Doctor Funkenstein]

What are you on about?

Aww, whassamatta wittle guy?

So upset that you can't acknowledge that there are playable High Elves, but they're just on a different faction from the one you want them to be on? I'm so sorry! I can see that clearly hurts your fee-fees.

But hey. The option is still there. Wanna play a High Elf? You can!

Unfortunately for you, they're Horde. No matter how much you want to whine, stomp, and cry over it.

[FlubberPuddy]

I'd probably say the Eredar are a distinct species from the Draenei, yeah. They're distinct on an elemental level. Anything that has a different elemental alignment is probably a distinct species.

I dunno about Worgen. Honestly it only really seems relevant for furry RP and that's gross. _{don't @ me furries}

Sorry, but if you think Draenei are a different species from Eredar then saying "Blood Elves are High Elves" wouldn't be correct either.

The draenei [ˈdɹænɑɪ] (meaning Exiled Ones in their own tongue) are a faction of uncorrupted eredar who fled their homeworld of Argus to escape the corruption of the demonic Burning Legion.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Draenei

"Draenei" is just a different term, that describes their faction. Their race is still Eredar. Just like how Blood Elves are a faction, but their race is still High Elf.

Except what people ask for are the faction that call themselves High Elves, who are of the race High Elf.

Also Worgen are considered still of the Human race.

Worgen are not technically a race and thus cannot reproduce like one. The worgen curse is just a curse. Its origins are rooted in the druidic pack form that was later altered by the Scythe of Elune. The end result is worgen we see today, beings that can transmit their affliction to others via a single bite. In theory, if two worgen were to mate and produce an offspring, that offspring would not be a worgen. The child would merely possess the genetic material of his or her parents, like any other child sans the curse.[17]

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Worgen

This is why I asked about Void Elf reproduction, if the babies pop out Void Elves then it determines a different species.

- - - Updated - - -

Aww, whassamatta wittle guy?

So upset that you can't acknowledge that there are playable High Elves, but they're just on a different faction from the one you want them to be on? I'm so sorry! I can see that clearly hurts your fee-fees.

But hey. The option is still there. Wanna play a High Elf? You can!

Unfortunately for you, they're Horde. No matter how much you want to whine, stomp, and cry over it.

Ignorance must be bliss for you.

[Doctor Funkenstein]

Ignorance must be bliss for you.

What ignorance?

You're the one who wants to play a High Elf, which is a race. And that race is available to the Horde, under the faction of the Blood Elves.

Or what, are Steamwheedle Goblins not Goblins now?

Quit being a spoiled, snot-nosed brat. If you want to play a High Elf, go play one. They've been in the game for over a decade.

[FlubberPuddy]

What ignorance?

You're the one who wants to play a High Elf, which is a race. And that race is available to the Horde, under the faction of the Blood Elves.

Or what, are Steamwheedle Goblins not Goblins now?

Quit being a spoiled, snot-nosed brat. If you want to play a High Elf, go play one. They've been in the game for over a decade.

And trolls exist already too, no need for Zandalari. Mag'har shouldn't be in because there's already Orcs. Let's get rid of Dark Iron, Void Elves, Highmountain, Lightforged, and Kul'Tiran too because their respective races are already available.

Your "argument" sounds like one against the Allied Race system itself rather than specifically High Elves.

You still can't produce evidence of a Horde Dwarf NPC either.

[Doctor Funkenstein]

And trolls exist already too, no need for Zandalari.

Didn't say there were.

You know what else there isn't? Alliance Trolls. Or Horde Dwarves. But you know what there are? Horde Trolls. And Alliance Dwarves. Just like there's Horde High Elves.

You want to play a High Elf? Again, they've been available for over a decade. Knock yourself out.

[FlubberPuddy]

Ion Hazzikostas made this statement in one of the larger Q&As in Summer/Fall of last year. It was the same Q&A where he said, "If you want to play a light-skinned, Thalassian Elf, the Horde is there for you." He stated that Blizzard acknowledged the neutrality of the Pandaren as a mistake they would want to avoid again.

I'll link you to the source when I can find it.

https://www.wowhead.com/news=283929/...an-allied-race

Here's the entire Q&A where Ion said, "If you want to play a light-skinned, Thalassian Elf, the Horde is there for you." You're saying he brought up the neutrality of Pandaren in this same Q&A. I don't recall him ever bringing up Pandaren in this Q&A, but there it is if you want to find the timestamp for us and let us know which part in there he brings up Pandaren neutrality as it relates to High Elves.

[Varx]

And trolls exist already too, no need for Zandalari. Mag'har shouldn't be in because there's already Orcs. Let's get rid of Dark Iron, Void Elves, Highmountain, Lightforged, and Kul'Tiran too because their respective races are already available.

Your "argument" sounds like one against the Allied Race system itself rather than specifically High Elves.

You still can't produce evidence of a Horde Dwarf NPC either.

You cant compare zandalari/regular troll with high elf/blood elf.

You can clearly see the difference between the two which is what the AR system is based on. On the other hand the two elves have 0 differences besides eye glow which could be made = and justified by the sunwell now.

As for kt humans, we haven't interacted with them since ever so Blizzard had more room to give them new bodies and models and simultaneously come up with lore reasons.

With high elves, we've been interacting with them in wow since TBC with them always sharing the exact same model as belves. Why would they out of no where have different body structure than belves. If anything it makes sense to have them look the same as both factions have been having a "cold war" over silvermoon since the silver covenant was formed.

[AngerFork]

Ion Hazzikostas made this statement in one of the larger Q&As in Summer/Fall of last year. It was the same Q&A where he said, "If you want to play a light-skinned, Thalassian Elf, the Horde is there for you." He stated that Blizzard acknowledged the neutrality of the Pandaren as a mistake they would want to avoid again.

I'll link you to the source when I can find it.

Here's the direct link to the question where High Elves are asked in that Q&A: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/254739285?t=01h01m24s

In this, he doesn't reference anything to the Pandaren at all that I can see. He instead mentions giving the High Elves to the Alliance as possibly blurring the lines between the two factions, then goes on to discuss what a High Elf actually is in his mind. Nothing in that talks about the Pandaren nor their neutrality as a mistake, nor anything that Blizzard would look to avoid in the future.

Was it during another question that I missed somehow?

[FlubberPuddy]

You cant compare zandalari/regular troll with high elf/blood elf.

You can clearly see the difference between the two which is what the AR system is based on. On the other hand the two elves have 0 differences besides eye glow which could be made = and justified by the sunwell now.

As for kt humans, we haven't interacted with them since ever so Blizzard had more room to give them new bodies and models and simultaneously come up with lore reasons.

With high elves, we've been interacting with them in wow since TBC with them always sharing the exact same model as belves. Why would they out of no where have different body structure than belves. If anything it makes sense to have them look the same as both factions have been having a "cold war" over silvermoon since the silver covenant was formed.

We've had kul'tirans in-game since Vanilla so we have interacted with them, it wasn't until Blizzard decided to give them a new look that they got one even so far as Legion they had Kul'Tirans on Broken Isles with the same Human model. Then Blizzard decided the next expansion when they'll make Kul'Tirans playable and gave them new models and an explanation for it.

Same for high elves and blood elves who used different thalassian models before they got their current ones, in Vanilla not TBC. They used some old elf model. High Elves in particular had used a variant of the Night Elf model for some of their NPCs.

Plus that poster was referring to races so I'm simply referring to races as well. It should all make sense because apparently we're all talking about races.

[Garfurion]

High Elf Paladins existed from the Second War onwards, although they were very small in number. Mehlar Dawnblade is an example of a Paladin trained by Uther himself.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Mehlar_Dawnblade

I didn't mention High Elf Paladins so I'm not sure why you bring them up.

What I posted previously was all in relation to the status of the lore and WoW as it existed up-to The Burning Crusade (TBC) since that was the specific timeframe in WoW development history that I was referring to.

In the Behind the Scenes Blood Elves video which Blizzard released with The Burning Crusade Collectors Edition Chris Metzen clearly says (around 3:28) regarding Blood Elf Paladins:

"We thought the game would play a lot better at the highest ends if that class option was available for the Horde so we sat around trying to figure out well this is certainly a break in the lore how the hell are we gonna rationalize this one."

If Blood Elf or even High Elf Paladins had been a significant group in pre-TBC lore it wouldn't have been a "break in the lore" as Word of God (aka Chris Metzen) put it at the time.

Mehlar Dawnblade was added in patch 2.0.3 so he seems to have been added to the lore after Blizzard decided to add Blood Elf Paladins to the game .

There has been a lot of Blood/High Elven lore added to the franchise since TBC was released and in some aspects that has meant retcons compared to the lore as it was before TBC such as Mehlar Dawnblade serving as a precedent for Alliance High Elf Paladins should High Elves ever become playable.

In Warcraft 3 High Elves and Blood Elves were portrayed as both Mages and Priests. Lady Liadrin was a High Elf priest at this time. They lost their faith in the light following Quel'thalas' destruction by the Scourge but it was restored by the restoration of the Sunwell.

But a race having priests doesn't automatically mean it is thematically defined as light-oriented. The Night-Elves had a Priestess hero unit in Warcraft III but the Night-Elves are thematically more wood/dark-elf/druid oriented than light-oriented. Similarly, there are Troll, Forsaken and Goblin priests in game now but not one of these races can be considered thematically light-oriented in the same way Humans, Draenei or Light-forged are.

Both the Warcraft Encyclopedia: "From that day forward, all high elves were constantly suffused in the Sunwell's energies, and the elves came to regard the Sunwell's waters as holy."
and the WoW: Game Manual: ... the holy waters of the Sunwell ...

mention that the Sunwell was regarded as Holy which a that point in time was purely arcane.

That doesn't mean high/blood elf priests didn't use the light (which I never wrote btw), but it wasn't a major theme defining the Blood/High Elves as a race up to that point. In the case of the Blood Elves the Spellbreaker was a much more iconic unit in Warcraft III.

The High/Blood Elf culture focusing on the arcane prior to the destruction of the Sunwell has been referenced many times over the years in official texts such as the Warcraft Encyclopedia: "In spite of the hardship they had endured, the high elves remained determined to continue their spellcasting, for they had come to consider arcane power their birthright."
and in the Blood of the Highborne: "...the Sunwell: the magnificent heart of their society, a nurturing source of mystical energies, and a seemingly inexhaustible fount of arcane power".

I can't recall any pre-TBC texts referring to Blood Elf culture being focused on the holy light as much as on the Sunwell indicating that prior to TBC launch they were thematically portrait as a (mainly) arcane/magic/Sunwell focused race.

As for Lady Liadrin and Mehlar Dawnblade, neither of them was around in-game pre-TBC and both get a lot of their history from the Blood of the Highborne novella which was released in 2014, 7 years after TBC was released so although they are clearly part of the lore now, they weren't part of the game or the lore pre-TBC.

- - - Updated - - -

"The high elven priests use their Light-given powers to heal the wounded and bolster the spirits of Lordaeron's fighting elite." - The Warcraft III Manual entry for the Elven Priest.

That's correct I was a little to quick in the response you are quoting. I maintain that there is a difference though between a unit using the light and a whole race being thematically light-oriented/focused.

Furthermore the lore for Blood Knights is that they are a mixture of former priests and royal guards who had lost faith in the light and decided to control it instead of light powers being granted to them through faith. Liadrin was a devout follower of the light. Light worship is a part of High Elven history according to lore. Now, now, I know that it's lore that was written for TBC so I'm sure you'll want to dismiss it as giving a background with the light to a race race that did not have it. To that I say fair enough.

Yes I was referring to state of the game and the lore pre-TBC. A lot of eleven lore has been added since then.

But now here's the kicker : the World of Warcraft RPG makes several mentions of the fact that light worship was part of high elven society. Aha! "But girl, the RPGs are not considered canon!" You are ab-so-lu-tely right disembodied voice in my head, the RPG books are not considered canon today. But do you know when they were considered canon lore sources and featured as such on the official world of warcraft website? Back before TBC.

So there ya go. Whether you want to go by current or outdated canon it's considered that wielding and worshiping the light is part of High Elven culture since at the very least the third war. Which, once again, does not invalidate all of the points you have made previously. I'm just kind of a c*nt when it comes to lore points.

Fair enough. I am clearly wrong on this point since the RPG books were officially canon until sometime in 2011.

It didn't occur to me to take the RPG book into account since they were officially declared non-canon rather than superseded by new lore.


-- update --

In Warcraft 3 High Elves and Blood Elves were portrayed as both Mages and Priests. Lady Liadrin was a High Elf priest at this time. They lost their faith in the light following Quel'thalas' destruction by the Scourge but it was restored by the restoration of the Sunwell.

I just want to update my response to this point since as BTHSE pointed out I was wrong regarding pre-TBC lore regarding High Elves & light worshiping because I didn't take the RPG books into account regarding pre-TBC lore.

Should the RPG books also mention the existence of High Elf Paladins than I'm clearly also wrong on that point regarding the pre-TBC state of the lore.

[Aldo Hawk]

Please, in order to avoid being ridicule, try to not confuse past and present and get your information and points right.

Also, i want to note that adding personal opinion after a fact does not make that opinion true by default, please, stop doing that.

[Ielenia]

Just because you call yourself something different from what you are, does not change what you are. Blood Elves are High Elves.

And I see you are one of those missed (or intentionally ignore) the fact that blood elves have actively acted to distance themselves from high elves by not only exiling but cutting relations with all of those who did not re-brand themselves 'blood elves'.

[Zantos]

I missed nothing, I simply understand simple biology that distancing yourself from what you are, does not change what you are.

I can run around all damn day claiming to be something other than human, that does not change me from being human. You are mixing up political identity and racial identity. Blood Elves are High Elves, try to keep up.

Exactly. With golden eyes now in, it shows even more that blood elfs and high elfs are one in the same. Their eye color changes based on what they are exposed to in the sunwell. Add arcane back, and their eyes would turn blue once again in time. No reason to give the alliance blood elfs. Void elfs are a fine compromise. They look different and are different enough to warrent a spot were as a high elf would be a blood elf with blue eyes. An option they could easily give blood elf players. Heck, blood elf dks eyes are blue. Be a blood elf dk and BAM, high elf in everything except title.

What else could there be to discuss? Can't be like "make them look different lawl". They are not a different species. There has not been Nearly enough time or mixing of the blood for distinct physical differences.