is BM really this shit?

[Mardux]

The literal only case of thinking whatsoever a BM has to do is 1. use MS on cleave and 2. don't use Barbed Shot on CD. If you want to maximize Frenzy, you need to manage Barbed Shot somewhat (though perfect uptime is not possible).

Movement NOT being a part of how hard a spec is to play is just ridiculous, what kind of moron compares specs by how difficult they are to maximize on a dummy?

Havoc requires quick thinking because it, like any melee spec, requires movement. I'll be honest I haven't played Havoc since Legion, during the period when Momentum was the build you went with, and based it off of that. One of the few specs I haven't played in BfA. I could be wrong about it these days.

That said, a melee is automatically harder than a ranged spec by default, especially one that has no limitations whatsoever on mobility.

The fact that you think Barbed Shot somehow makes BM more than an inch from completely mindless is mind boggling. While yes, you want to delay it to be as close to the buff running out as possible, that's also the only thinking you have to do unless you have Barrage or Stampede talented, where you want to save the CDs for when AoE happens, if it does sometime soon.
The problem is that most, if not all, other classes have these kinds of abilities baseline. Havoc, the spec you see as the easiest in the game, has Eye Beam baseline, as well as Immolation Aura, Blade Dance, Fel Barrage, and Fel Rush as talents. These abilities all need to be held off on if AoE or cleave is coming up.

Immo aura and FR needs to be held for aoe/cleave? Not quite. Immo is there to build fury faster, regardless of ST or cleave. FR is there to move from point A to point B faster. The only reason to FR an add pack is if you took that one talent (which i don't remember the name of since no one should have been taking it since implementation). Eye Beam and FelBar are the only things you might want to hold for an add pack on a boss, but there are very few fights this expac you should even have FelBar talented for.

Its like you're trying to compare BM to some fucked up havoc build where you're taking every extra button you can just to make the spec more complicated than it actually is.

[beelgers]

I haven't read through the replies, but I'm sure someone has already said this. I'll give it a go anyway...

There can be a lot of factors, but most importantly, hunter has 3 dps specs. If a lot of the better players flock to MM, that will artificially lower how BM looks in the rankings (since it doesn't have those players propping up the parses obviously)

Even if that weren't the case...even with BM being on the bottom of specifically the 90th percentile (not on the bottom of all percentiles)... The DPS actually isn't all that far off from the rest. It might not be best in some cases if you're on the bleeding edge of progression (although BM is used at the very top level). BM will still probably be best for most players if that is the spec they're best at rather than changing to a spec they're bad at.

[paror]

http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/T23_Raid.html explain why the only ones 30% behind even the top DPS spec is non-DPS specs, then? Or maybe you're freed of the burden of intelligence to such a degree that you think statistics on warcraftlogs actually says how good the specs are? Because I'm assuming even you don't think you're dumb enough to compare the worst spec of a pure DPS class to the best DPS spec in the game, and you're comparing BM to MM.

Exactly my point you link simc. Point made. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...21/#dataset=95. Done replying as you obv. are clueless

[Segus1992]

Immo aura and FR needs to be held for aoe/cleave? Not quite. Immo is there to build fury faster, regardless of ST or cleave. FR is there to move from point A to point B faster. The only reason to FR an add pack is if you took that one talent (which i don't remember the name of since no one should have been taking it since implementation). Eye Beam and FelBar are the only things you might want to hold for an add pack on a boss, but there are very few fights this expac you should even have FelBar talented for.

Its like you're trying to compare BM to some fucked up havoc build where you're taking every extra button you can just to make the spec more complicated than it actually is.

Yeah the talent for Fel Rush isn't great, but neither is Barrage. My point is that the only thing adding any kind of difficulty to BM is the same kind of mechanic that almost every other DPS spec has, ie waiting for the right time to use an ability. Difference is that even the simplest (other) specs have more than one of them.

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Exactly my point you link simc. Point made. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...21/#dataset=95. Done replying as you obv. are clueless

So you're afraid that you'll get proven wrong, and therefore you run away. Good show. Seems you DID actually compare BM to the top spec on logs, as ridiculously stupid as that is. I'll tell you why if you ask, but I assume you know why and won't ask.

[MatthewOU2015]

BM is middle of the pack in all the heroic raids I’ve been in.

[Mavick]

You guys arguing about if it's easy or not are approaching it from the wrong angle. Every class is pretty similar now in terms of "what order do i press buttons in" whether it be priority or cd. It's really about how punishing the spec is when you fuck up. And here nothing comes anywhere close to BM, that's why it's widely viewed as being easy. So much of its damage is automatic, and the difference between playing optimally as opposed to shitty doesn't make nearly as much difference as pretty much every other spec. Sure you can argue the fine points of frenzy stack manipulation, but it means very little.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Honestly, if ANY spec deserves to be last place it's BM, given its utility and mobility and general ease of play.

Every class can be played by a human owner of 2 hands and average IQ.

Let's not pretend that players of one class suddenly deserves less or more than players of another, especially when many play multiple classes.

[Eapoe]

You guys arguing about if it's easy or not are approaching it from the wrong angle. Every class is pretty similar now in terms of "what order do i press buttons in" whether it be priority or cd. It's really about how punishing the spec is when you fuck up. And here nothing comes anywhere close to BM, that's why it's widely viewed as being easy. So much of its damage is automatic, and the difference between playing optimally as opposed to shitty doesn't make nearly as much difference as pretty much every other spec. Sure you can argue the fine points of frenzy stack manipulation, but it means very little.

Except this is again wrong. If you want to state messing up using Eye Beam more critical and detrimental to a DH vs a BM Hunter messing up pressing KC, which seems to be your arguement, I don’t have a rebuttal to it as that comes down to numbers tuning. If, however, you are saying it is more detrimental than a Hunter choosing to use CS and lose 3 stacks of Feeding Frenzy while also going into a BW and only 1 charge of BS ready, then you are wrong.
It’s the same comparison of you look at how precise you had to be at WW monk at the start of Legion to pull middle of the pack dps while other specs (yes, even BM at the time) has a much simpler time to do better dps. BM doesn’t just have a “press X ability like whack a mole” that it used to and actually requires some thought process behind it to play optimally. The difference between max potential and low potential isn’t completely strict for Bm, but it’s there.
As stated, easy spec, but there are easier now.

[Mavick]

Except this is again wrong. If you want to state messing up using Eye Beam more critical and detrimental to a DH vs a BM Hunter messing up pressing KC, which seems to be your arguement, I don’t have a rebuttal to it as that comes down to numbers tuning. If, however, you are saying it is more detrimental than a Hunter choosing to use CS and lose 3 stacks of Feeding Frenzy while also going into a BW and only 1 charge of BS ready, then you are wrong.
It’s the same comparison of you look at how precise you had to be at WW monk at the start of Legion to pull middle of the pack dps while other specs (yes, even BM at the time) has a much simpler time to do better dps. BM doesn’t just have a “press X ability like whack a mole” that it used to and actually requires some thought process behind it to play optimally. The difference between max potential and low potential isn’t completely strict for Bm, but it’s there.
As stated, easy spec, but there are easier now.

I like how you tell me I'm wrong yet don't even seem to grasp what I'm saying. The differences between using barbed shot on cooldown vs maximizing stacks has actually been posted here before, it's something like a 3% difference iirc, pretty small. And since that seems to be a lynchpin in your "bm is hard argument", it just makes you look silly tbh. Sure you can maximize it and do more, I'm not arguing against that. But when 70% of your damage is just pure automatic pet damage, it's pretty stupid to try to tell people how "hard" the spec is when you could fuck it completely up and still parse just from pure old fashioned RNG.

[Eapoe]

I like how you tell me I'm wrong yet don't even seem to grasp what I'm saying. The differences between using barbed shot on cooldown vs maximizing stacks has actually been posted here before, it's something like a 3% difference iirc, pretty small. And since that seems to be a lynchpin in your "bm is hard argument", it just makes you look silly tbh. Sure you can maximize it and do more, I'm not arguing against that. But when 70% of your damage is just pure automatic pet damage, it's pretty stupid to try to tell people how "hard" the spec is when you could fuck it completely up and still parse just from pure old fashioned RNG.

I do grasp what you are saying, but we are discussing min/max potential vs ease of play. Also, to throw it back at you, you state that 70% of damage is pet auto attacks which is directly affected by Feeding Frenzy and it’s uptime. Playing that subpar means that you are going for an easier playstyle of whack a mole and not playing to min max.
I’ve never stated BM isn’t easy. I have compared min/max potential of BM vs most other dps specs in game to show that BM is not some brain dead spec to play at max potential that others are trying to say it is. 3% is still 3% difference, and that is determined by how well you play and manage stacks. Managing stacks, while easy, is still more difficult than playing whack a mole or just pressing an ability the second it’s off CD like most dps specs have at this point.
My point was never that BM is hard. My point is that so many more specs are just as easy, if not easier, than BM when it comes to min/max that saying BM should be shit dps from how easy it is becomes purely hypocritical.

[Lahlah]

I do grasp what you are saying, but we are discussing min/max potential vs ease of play. Also, to throw it back at you, you state that 70% of damage is pet auto attacks which is directly affected by Feeding Frenzy and it’s uptime. Playing that subpar means that you are going for an easier playstyle of whack a mole and not playing to min max.
I’ve never stated BM isn’t easy. I have compared min/max potential of BM vs most other dps specs in game to show that BM is not some brain dead spec to play at max potential that others are trying to say it is. 3% is still 3% difference, and that is determined by how well you play and manage stacks. Managing stacks, while easy, is still more difficult than playing whack a mole or just pressing an ability the second it’s off CD like most dps specs have at this point.
My point was never that BM is hard. My point is that so many more specs are just as easy, if not easier, than BM when it comes to min/max that saying BM should be shit dps from how easy it is becomes purely hypocritical.

Pretty much this. I've raided in a few top ten U.S. guilds as both a hunter and a paladin and I also have one of each class maxed out right now on both horde and alliance. My point is, I am very familiar with most classes, have been playing hardcore a long time and know how to min/max and pull good deeps. I don't raid that competitively anymore (since end of MoP) but having raided since the beginning of BC and doing both the melee, ranged and caster thing, if you are a competent PLAYER, then any class is going to be rather easy to pick up these days but it's all about min/maxing. It's the reason most hardcore guilds today require anywhere from 2-5 alts that can be played at the same level as your main. Other specs just as 'easy' as BM that I've dabbled with ...disc, shadow, outlaw, mm, boomkin, frost, fire, probably more, just haven't gotten around to them yet. If you know how to min/max that usually puts you ahead of 80-85% of the WoW population anyway in terms of deeps.

[Mavick]

I do grasp what you are saying, but we are discussing min/max potential vs ease of play. Also, to throw it back at you, you state that 70% of damage is pet auto attacks which is directly affected by Feeding Frenzy and it’s uptime. Playing that subpar means that you are going for an easier playstyle of whack a mole and not playing to min max.
I’ve never stated BM isn’t easy. I have compared min/max potential of BM vs most other dps specs in game to show that BM is not some brain dead spec to play at max potential that others are trying to say it is. 3% is still 3% difference, and that is determined by how well you play and manage stacks. Managing stacks, while easy, is still more difficult than playing whack a mole or just pressing an ability the second it’s off CD like most dps specs have at this point.
My point was never that BM is hard. My point is that so many more specs are just as easy, if not easier, than BM when it comes to min/max that saying BM should be shit dps from how easy it is becomes purely hypocritical.

I didn't say 70% of damage was pet "autos", stop reading into what I'm typing please. I said 70% of it is automatic, pet basic attacks and auto shot is included in that, and you have to do nothing but right click on the boss and face it for that. And what does it matter if it's "harder" to min/max on bm when it literally only gains you 1/8th of the damage that same effort would take for any other class?

Your point is stupid, as I originally pointed out. It's quite simple and common sense to say that even if the rotation is hard, yet performing it sub-optimally only loses 3-5% damage because 70% of your overall is automatic, then who fucking cares. No other spec has that kind of cushion for being bad, not even close.

[Dartz1979]

I would have to be inclined to agree with OP beast mastery seems to only be good for leveling up and used in some points fights as utility brez/hero.. but all in all marksman seems to be better to use in end game content.

[Poppincaps]

Go read Bendak's post. He refutes basically all the points most of you are making. Except the fact that BM is easy, which to that all I have to say is.... lol no. I could list multiple specs that are just as easy if not easier than BM. And if you disagree, feel free to post your BM parses

[Nightheart]

Who the fuck cares about BM. WHY IS DEMONOLOGY SO LOW DOWN THE DAMN LIST! Demonology 4 life bro!

[Eapoe]

I didn't say 70% of damage was pet "autos", stop reading into what I'm typing please. I said 70% of it is automatic, pet basic attacks and auto shot is included in that, and you have to do nothing but right click on the boss and face it for that. And what does it matter if it's "harder" to min/max on bm when it literally only gains you 1/8th of the damage that same effort would take for any other class?

Your point is stupid, as I originally pointed out. It's quite simple and common sense to say that even if the rotation is hard, yet performing it sub-optimally only loses 3-5% damage because 70% of your overall is automatic, then who fucking cares. No other spec has that kind of cushion for being bad, not even close.

You literally typed “70% of your damage is just pure automatic pet damage.” It’s literally in the post I quoted and proof you stated just that which explains my reply. If you mistyped, that’s on you, not in my response to your wrong information.
What matters is that people state BM is the easiest brain dead spec in the game, which has been shown multiple times that is outright wrong. To min/max it is not as brain dead as people state.
You are also now moving goal posts. If I played BM to it’s outright worst, like you are trying to compare with other specs in other classes, then there would be a bigger gap than 3-5% damage difference. You are insinuating that screwing up a specs priority abilities is going to net a huge loss and BM won’t. Okay, so for example, if DH spams there Hatred boulder instead of using Eye Beam there damage will drop considerably. The same holds true for BM if I spam Cobra Shot instead of using things like BW, MoC, BS. Your arguement is just getting silly and stupid because you’re trying to backtrack and now come up with a point you cane be correct about, which you are failing at.
The bottom line, someone said BM is the easiest most brain dead spec to play, which is wrong. Pure and simple.

[Mavick]

I didn't mean to put "pet" in there, but even still, it should be obvious what I was getting at. My point still stands. Yours is still stupid.

Also, I didn't move any goalposts. I said from the outset that arguing over which spec is easiest is fucking stupid when you're including one that's so heavily tilted towards automatic damage like BM and the differences between a min/max performance and a mediocre one is fucking tiny. You're just completely blinded and handicapped from playing the spec, apparently, that you can't delineate the difference between playing a spec with mostly pet damage on auto-casts with a low bearing on how you're hitting your buttons vs one that is entirely about your ability management. The latter is obviously going to be more punishing when you fuck up, as opposed to the former. Common. Fucking. Sense.

[Lawlhero]

BM offers a ton of mobility, making them good for taking on specific responsibilities other raid members can't.

[Bepples]

I didn't mean to put "pet" in there, but even still, it should be obvious what I was getting at. My point still stands. Yours is still stupid.

Also, I didn't move any goalposts. I said from the outset that arguing over which spec is easiest is fucking stupid when you're including one that's so heavily tilted towards automatic damage like BM and the differences between a min/max performance and a mediocre one is fucking tiny. You're just completely blinded and handicapped from playing the spec, apparently, that you can't delineate the difference between playing a spec with mostly pet damage on auto-casts with a low bearing on how you're hitting your buttons vs one that is entirely about your ability management. The latter is obviously going to be more punishing when you fuck up, as opposed to the former. Common. Fucking. Sense.

Your point is predicated on a made-up number. BM is not 70% automatic damage. I just checked a 95th percentile parse of mine on Heroic Blockade. I'm looking at 38% of my total damage from the pet and 12% from Auto-Attack, so 50% of my total damage is superficially "automatic". Except it isn't, because my pet's damage is heavily increased by a) my Bestial Wrath usage and b) my Frenzy uptime and Barbed Shot usage (due to Stomp). So you're already looking at a lot lower than 50%, which is substantially lower than your figure of 70%. That's also not even mentioning how that 12% for Auto-Attack is a pretty common baseline for all weapon users in BFA.

But I see where you're coming from: In a combat situation where the player is literally doing nothing beyong initiating auto-attack and pet-attack, BM beats all other specs. That's absolutely true. That doesn't mean BM is by default an easier spec in raiding. If you play suboptimally you will lose a significant amount of DPS regardless of the automatic DPS baseline, especially since much of the pet's damage is buffed by stuff the Hunter is actively doing. Yes, other specs which don't have a pet are more reliant on the player ability priority. But that only really means BM will pull ahead of them at the "braindead" skill level, i.e. pressing abilities effectively at random and probably not filling every GCD. That's a moot point because what's of interest to us here is the raid viability level, where that's not going to be the case for anyone. What does it matter what our "AFK" DPS is when if we want to get the most out of our spec and stay competitive we still have to input as much effort as most other DPS specs?

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BM offers a ton of mobility, making them good for taking on specific responsibilities other raid members can't.

Problem is at some point the mobility does not make up for the lower DPS. Look at Hellfire Citadel. MM was the only spec with a movement penalty yet it was the only viable spec for the tier. I don't think we are at that level yet but the worry is that we are approaching it.

[Mavick]

Your point is predicated on a made-up number. BM is not 70% automatic damage. I just checked a 95th percentile parse of mine on Heroic Blockade. I'm looking at 38% of my total damage from the pet and 12% from Auto-Attack, so 50% of my total damage is superficially "automatic". Except it isn't, because my pet's damage is heavily increased by a) my Bestial Wrath usage and b) my Frenzy uptime and Barbed Shot usage (due to Stomp). So you're already looking at a lot lower than 50%, which is substantially lower than your figure of 70%. That's also not even mentioning how that 12% for Auto-Attack is a pretty common baseline for all weapon users in BFA.

But I see where you're coming from: In a combat situation where the player is literally doing nothing beyong initiating auto-attack and pet-attack, BM beats all other specs. That's absolutely true. That doesn't mean BM is by default an easier spec in raiding. If you play suboptimally you will lose a significant amount of DPS regardless of the automatic DPS baseline, especially since much of the pet's damage is buffed by stuff the Hunter is actively doing. Yes, other specs which don't have a pet are more reliant on the player ability priority. But that only really means BM will pull ahead of them at the "braindead" skill level, i.e. pressing abilities effectively at random and probably not filling every GCD. That's a moot point because what's of interest to us here is the raid viability level, where that's not going to be the case for anyone. What does it matter what our "AFK" DPS is when if we want to get the most out of our spec and stay competitive we still have to input as much effort as most other DPS specs?

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Problem is at some point the mobility does not make up for the lower DPS. Look at Hellfire Citadel. MM was the only spec with a movement penalty yet it was the only viable spec for the tier. I don't think we are at that level yet but the worry is that we are approaching it.

Your version of "substantially lower" leaves alot to be desired. That's still half of your damage. And yes it is half, counting bestial wrath damage is a joke because it's literally just a button you hit on cooldown. And as for frenzy, even if you're not min/maxing it a noob would be pushing it randomly and buffing attack speed of the pet. Like I've said, the sims have been ran on "frenzy uptime maximization", it doesn't make nearly as much a difference as people think.

But go on, keep thinking the spec is hard if you people want to argue the case so hard.