[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Katchii]

Uhuh, never encountered that in FF or in WoW. Probably because I surrounded myself with sensible people and rarely ran content with randoms (in WoW).
In FF, people don't seem to give a shit, though typically I am the undergeared tank. Dungeons run smootly either way b/c I know what I can handle.

You're one of the few then.

I can't count the number of times I've been in a group with an undergeared tank who proceeds to mass pull and then drop dead 5 seconds afterward because they didn't have the gear to handle it, didn't use cooldowns AND blamed the healer for dying or the DPS for not killing things fast enough.

Most of the time it's smooth, with some runs going faster than others because the tank is both geared and skilled, but so long as the tank is not a moron the runs just fine.

I agree with your earlier assessment though, I just can't accept letting myself go into a dungeon without updated gear because I always feel it's my job to pull my weight as best as I can. I refuse to be willingly carried. I don't strive to be the best, but I sure as hell won't be OK with being dead weight either. People who do think that's acceptable (to be dead weight) really piss me off, especially the ones who are almost proud of the fact that they're dead weight and expect to be carried.

Aside from people flat out harassing other people in a group, those are the only kinds of people I'll kick. They'll end up getting through the content eventually, but not in my group.

[Merie]

Should they add Syrcus Tower to the RR MSQ?

[Kaelwryn]

Should they add Syrcus Tower to the RR MSQ?

What is RR MSQ?

[Val the Moofia Boss]

What is RR MSQ?

He means ARR.

[Super Kami Dende]

Should they add Syrcus Tower to the RR MSQ?

I think they should, I skipped the Crystal Tower stuff since I came into the game properly in HW and rushed past ARR doing only the main MSQ stuff. Hitting ShB and the Crystal Tower being an important part of the story meant I missed a fair bit of the significance as well as the Reveal of the Crystal Exarch being pretty meaningless to me. Much the same as skipping Alexander and Omega making the Twinning kind of uneventful.

I've actually gone back and done nearly all sidequests just so I don't feel like I've missed anything. As I was kind of annoyed that the current MSQ has reference to things that I would consider optional. To me it would be as if a whole MSQ plot point in the next expansion revolved around the end of the Eureka Questline.

[Kaelwryn]

He means ARR.

Oh, I see. I doubt they will. CT certainly adds more depth to shb, but its not really required to understand the story.

[Wrecktangle]

It's bad but at least glad has an aoe and a stun along with a two button combo at that level. Lancer literally only has the two button combo and a dps cd that only affects the next attack used and technically never gets an aoe! It's marginally better than arcanist! What a mess lol

Oh you're right I forgot about the ShB revamp to GLA (I leveled it back in ARR, when it was undeniably the most boring job to level). Never let it be said that I don't admit when I'm wrong. I defer to LNC/ARC then as being the most boring.

Sadly, player created content in MMOs has had a rocky history.

Snipped for content, but all I see from your examples is that it actually was good and received very well, but was mismanaged by the developer. Hardly a reason to call it a rocky history IMO.

There has been content every few weeks. No, its not raid or trial content, but it has been content. Whether its holiday storylines, Blue Mage update, Firmament, Copied Factory, etc. they have had a steady flow of content. Whether its something that interests you or not is a different story, but there has been something happening every 3-4 weeks.

I play almost every day for a couple hours a day. I have 18 classes at max level with their stories complete. I'm currently leveling bard and doing the stories from zones that still haven't been completed. There are a LOT of quests in this game. I'm not the type of person to just blindly click on things and run to objectives.

Final Fantasy has stories to tell, so I'm going to read as I go through the game to enjoy the work the writers put into it. Some stories are stronger than others, of course, but sometimes its nice to do a ridiculous side story every now and then to take your mind off some of the really dark stuff in FFXIV.

So I went and looked and while technically you are correct that there was a patch every 4 weeks or so, I didn't think you were actually considering timegating content as new content. That's my fault for assuming. I don't consider them deliberately holding content back and trickling it out as "new content every 3 weeks". With all due respect, neither should you.

That's one of the things about gear-based MMOs that always drives me away in the end. All people can see is gear gear gear. Every member in a run has to be categorized as a "carry" or "carrier" by people just based on stats, even if there's not a large gap or if someone with less gear even outperforms others.

Every time I think about trying WoW again, I remind myself of how much I hate this. Watching the WF race got me a little interested again, but then I reminded myself that 99.95% of WoW play isn't anything like that, so why bother.

I don't buy that TBH. While there are definitely carry's and carried; there's also an entire middle subset you're excluding of people who simply pull their weight. I have decades of albeit anecdotal experience in many games that just don't show this. You're always going to have all stars and bads, that's the nature of the normal distribution, but I don't think it's fair to simply pretend the entire middle section doesn't exist.

You're one of the few then.

I can't count the number of times I've been in a group with an undergeared tank who proceeds to mass pull and then drop dead 5 seconds afterward because they didn't have the gear to handle it, didn't use cooldowns AND blamed the healer for dying or the DPS for not killing things fast enough.

Most of the time it's smooth, with some runs going faster than others because the tank is both geared and skilled, but so long as the tank is not a moron the runs just fine.

It all just comes down to bads. They exist in all roles. I've had situations where I, a full BiS geared tank with 2 near BiS geared DPS had a healer blame me for mass pulling and dying. He was like, we're not geared enough to do that (despite him being in what looked like full tomestone gear). I looked at ACT and he cast a single heal in the 16 seconds it took for me to die... He did not use a single oGCD heal either. When I called him out on that he proceeded to tell me that I was wrong and he was spam casting heals on me. Yeah good joke

Or if you guys remember the infamous shield lob only Paladin. Man that was a treat that paid dividends.

All in though, I do agree with you. It happens to me all the time (bads, in some way shape or form). Tank one obviously way less because I'm normally the tank.

[Katchii]

Oh you're right I forgot about the ShB revamp to GLA (I leveled it back in ARR, when it was undeniably the most boring job to level). Never let it be said that I don't admit when I'm wrong. I defer to LNC/ARC then as being the most boring.



Snipped for content, but all I see from your examples is that it actually was good and received very well, but was mismanaged by the developer. Hardly a reason to call it a rocky history IMO.



So I went and looked and while technically you are correct that there was a patch every 4 weeks or so, I didn't think you were actually considering timegating content as new content. That's my fault for assuming. I don't consider them deliberately holding content back and trickling it out as "new content every 3 weeks". With all due respect, neither should you.



I don't buy that TBH. While there are definitely carry's and carried; there's also an entire middle subset you're excluding of people who simply pull their weight. I have decades of albeit anecdotal experience in many games that just don't show this. You're always going to have all stars and bads, that's the nature of the normal distribution, but I don't think it's fair to simply pretend the entire middle section doesn't exist.



It all just comes down to bads. They exist in all roles. I've had situations where I, a full BiS geared tank with 2 near BiS geared DPS had a healer blame me for mass pulling and dying. He was like, we're not geared enough to do that (despite him being in what looked like full tomestone gear). I looked at ACT and he cast a single heal in the 16 seconds it took for me to die... He did not use a single oGCD heal either. When I called him out on that he proceeded to tell me that I was wrong and he was spam casting heals on me. Yeah good joke

Or if you guys remember the infamous shield lob only Paladin. Man that was a treat that paid dividends.

All in though, I do agree with you. It happens to me all the time (bads, in some way shape or form). Tank one obviously way less because I'm normally the tank.

Oh I know. The comment was more aimed specifically at an undergeared tank who knows they're undergeared and performs accordingly to make sure the run goes as smoothly as possible. In most cases from my experience, undergeared to the point you'd need to adjust your game play also meant the player was bad.

I've been grouped with less than stellar players MANY MANY times, but I've honestly been grouped with truly bad or terrible players very few times. That said, you and I have discussed or commented on this many times before. It's not the skill level that makes it a bad experience, really, it's when the bad players's outright refuse to get better or listen to help when it's given. I don't mind inexperienced players who are trying, but I absolutely cannot stand bad players who seem almost proud of the fact that they're bad because they act that way, don't care that it affects others and have a bad attitude about it.

Thankfully those experiences are few and far between and are pretty easily dealt with thanks to the vote dismiss feature, or by leaving the group if the vote doesn't pass (which is VERY rare in those circumstances).

[Granyala]

I agree with your earlier assessment though, I just can't accept letting myself go into a dungeon without updated gear because I always feel it's my job to pull my weight as best as I can. I refuse to be willingly carried.

I feel the same wa but I know that stats in this game are too weak for 10 - 20 ilvl to make or break my output in a dungeon (remember, we're talking simple leveling content here).
As long as I know what I am doing, my performance will be content adequate.

I obviously would never enter content that has strict enrage timers with crappy gear.

- - - Updated - - -

Or if you guys remember the infamous shield lob only Paladin. Man that was a treat that paid dividends.

How could we forget Captain Shield Lob?

[Katchii]

I feel the same wa but I know that stats in this game are too weak for 10 - 20 ilvl to make or break my output in a dungeon (remember, we're talking simple leveling content here).
As long as I know what I am doing, my performance will be content adequate.

I obviously would never enter content that has strict enrage timers with crappy gear.

I understand where you're coming from, but I hardly ever step foot into content with strict enrage timers. For me, I just can't let myself let go THAT much and get THAT lax on gearing/performance. Whether it affects the ability to make or break my output is secondary. If I can relatively easily wear up to date gear, why shouldn't I? The alternatives are that I am simply OK with sub par output or am too lazy to update the gear, neither of which am I OK with conceptually.

Again, I understand that it really has very little impact on whether the dungeon or trial will succeed and don't begrudge people who roll this way, it's more about knowing whether I did what I thought was a good effort. I've been in far too many shitty groups where blame gets handed out like candy when shit goes south, blaming anything from gear to performance to someone's mothers fidelity or whatever. Knowing 100% there's no way anyone can try to blame me for any failures, on a performance or gear related level, gives me peace of mind. That's enough for me to care about gear...plus I like having the sets for glamour.

[Poppincaps]

Does anyone know the ilvl I'll need to run Eden's Verse? Debating on whether I should resub now and grind some gear up or resub when the patch drops.

[Kaelwryn]

Does anyone know the ilvl I'll need to run Eden's Verse? Debating on whether I should resub now and grind some gear up or resub when the patch drops.

Most likely going to be ilvl 455 for normal. General rule of thumb is to add 30 to the current whatever you're trying to figure out the ilvl for. So like next tomestone ilvl should be 490/500, eden verse gear will likely be 480 (for normal)/500 (for savage), etc. Doesn't apply to everything (namely dungeons, which are usually like 20 ilvls or so apart, give or take for min ilvl required) but gives you a good enough idea.

[La]

I understand where you're coming from, but I hardly ever step foot into content with strict enrage timers. For me, I just can't let myself let go THAT much and get THAT lax on gearing/performance. Whether it affects the ability to make or break my output is secondary. If I can relatively easily wear up to date gear, why shouldn't I? The alternatives are that I am simply OK with sub par output or am too lazy to update the gear, neither of which am I OK with conceptually.

Again, I understand that it really has very little impact on whether the dungeon or trial will succeed and don't begrudge people who roll this way, it's more about knowing whether I did what I thought was a good effort. I've been in far too many shitty groups where blame gets handed out like candy when shit goes south, blaming anything from gear to performance to someone's mothers fidelity or whatever. Knowing 100% there's no way anyone can try to blame me for any failures, on a performance or gear related level, gives me peace of mind. That's enough for me to care about gear...plus I like having the sets for glamour.

I mean entering a dungeon with subpar gear is fine for low level stuff, but the higher you go, especially into some of the expansion leveling dungeons midway through, if you're undergeared as a tank or healer it can be miserable. Specifically for a healer. I guess I find it kind of annoying being in that situation when I was leveling my healers and having good gear, or playing a tank and feeling like I need better gear because I do feel really squishy, but then a DPS is like "Yeah this shit gear is aight no pressure" lol. I suppose it's easy to not care if your gear is shit if the burden isn't on you and you're the tank or the DPS.

[Graeham]

Just MNK, DRG, AST and BLM to go and then I'll unlock the amaro mount...

I'm working on MNK first, since I like it the least.

[Granyala]

Knowing 100% there's no way anyone can try to blame me for any failures, on a performance or gear related level, gives me peace of mind.

Even if you wore BiS, I am sure I could glance at ACT and tell you what you are doing wrong.
Why? Because no human plays any class at 100% of it's capability. We all make mistakes that lower our performance.
Typically nobody notices that but ourselves unless the logs get analyzed or the failure is critical, leading to a death or insufficient DPS to meet enrages.

I understand that you are acting on OCD and I respect that. Just don't lose objectivity.

[Poppincaps]

Most likely going to be ilvl 455 for normal. General rule of thumb is to add 30 to the current whatever you're trying to figure out the ilvl for. So like next tomestone ilvl should be 490/500, eden verse gear will likely be 480 (for normal)/500 (for savage), etc. Doesn't apply to everything (namely dungeons, which are usually like 20 ilvls or so apart, give or take for min ilvl required) but gives you a good enough idea.

Thanks for the info I appreciate it

[Granyala]

if you're undergeared as a tank or healer it can be miserable. Specifically for a healer.

As a healer in this game you have absurd leeway when it comes to gear compared to other MMOs.
I don't care if I am 20 item levels below what the dungeon drops, stuff hits like wet noodles anyway. Only mass pulls would be problematic but these are not the norm in leveling dungeons.

Really, the only role that feels equipment are tanks. If you are too squishy, you end up being global'd by normal sized groups, no healer can compensate for that.
Considering that newer dungeons have a min ilvl requirement, that hardly ever happens anymore.

Second one would be DPS on encounters like Bismark normal. Crappy gear + low skilled "real newbies" can easily lead to him going enrage because them snakes live too long.

BTW: just to put things into perspective: I level the Shadowbringers dungeons with item level 400 (upgraded tome gear of Stormblood).
The Lv 80 dungeon drops green I430 pieces. That's below 10% increase in item level. Completely irrelevant. No need to farm i416 or any of that nonsense, you level wickedly fast in FF-XIV anyway. Just push through to 80 and then direct your attention towards the good stuff.

Same with the i260(?) vs i290 going from HW -> SB.

I'm working on MNK first, since I like it the least.

Monk is fun, just get with the flow and dance.
AST on the other hand .... BARF! (since the rework)

[Katchii]

Even if you wore BiS, I am sure I could glance at ACT and tell you what you are doing wrong.
Why? Because no human plays any class at 100% of it's capability. We all make mistakes that lower our performance.
Typically nobody notices that but ourselves unless the logs get analyzed or the failure is critical, leading to a death or insufficient DPS to meet enrages.

I understand that you are acting on OCD and I respect that. Just don't lose objectivity.

I could care less about perfection because as you said it’s unattainable. But that kind of obsession with performance and checking logs to see where who messed up and how bad is a HUGE part of why I don’t do content that can get that serious. I don’t play these games to be challenged or frustrated, but I respect those who do push themselves in that way.

I just don’t want to be carried. Not performing optimally =/= being carried. And I’m fine with that.

[Granyala]

Not performing optimally =/= being carried.

In the eyes of people that can perform optimally, the above statement is false.

Basically, see Bovinity's comment above. To these people, there are only two states. Either you manage to play at their level or they feel they are carrying you.
That may be due to a lack of skill or gear or both.

Personally, I never had a problem with carrying weaker players, as long as I see that they put in effort and try. I'd rather have a person obeying mechanics and doing less DPS than a tryhard that constantly need extra attention as a healer.
Also, I second your "I don't play to challenge myself" mindset. I used to seek the challenge but these days games are more for fun and relaxation. Even when I raided savage, I didn't care about the challenge aspect at all (contrary to my Mythic time back in WoW), I just liked the people I was running with.
Though eventually, Shadowbringers hideous network performance made me quit.

[Katchii]

In the eyes of people that can perform optimally, the above statement is false.

Basically, see Bovinity's comment above. To these people, there are only two states. Either you manage to play at their level or they feel they are carrying you.
That may be due to a lack of skill or gear or both.

Let me clarify that there is a HUGE difference between what I'm saying about how I want to perform and what truly bad players actually do....there are plenty of people who honestly DO get carried, but we both know that's not what I'm talking about.

If the run can be completed comfortably and efficiently without them, by definition, they're not carrying anyone. Just because it wasn't the fastest, most efficientest, biggerest pullsiest run doesn't mean it wasn't efficient, it just wasn't the MOST efficient it could have been and we all know the content we're discussing doesn't require that level of performance. If a perfect run with maximum efficiency takes 12 minutes and our run takes 14-16 and you (general you) get bent out of shape over it, you're taking this game WAY too seriously and quite frankly your expectations are WAY too high. If the run were to take 20+ minutes instead, I could understand a bit of frustration, but again that's not what we're talking about here.

The idea that someone would think that they are carrying a group in the above situation (14-16 minute vs 12 minute run) is asinine, and those particular folks are overblown elitist assholes whose opinion is not worth consideration, in my eyes, because their over inflated opinion of themselves is not based in reality. Making the run go a little faster =/= carrying the group. Carrying is only when the task would have been significantly harder if not impossible without them there.

See @Wrecktangle post above. There is a distribution of players. Ignoring the group in the middle, or at least the upper middle, and basically saying anyone lower than the top 5%, including those in the 80-90% is ludicrously out of touch with reality.