[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[cubby]

(I don't know what that ^ is and I can't seem to remove it)

Varys can act in the best interest of the realm, but it's made clear that he does so without putting himself at risk. Again, his schemes are planned and executed over a long time with care and precision and the use of influence which he has spent his life cultivating.

Wanting to have Dany usurped for the good of the realm isn't the problem. His carelessness and open talks of treason are. I'd chalk this up to a casualty of the show being rushed, but that shouldn't be an excuse for poor writing decisions that amounted to "well we gotta wrap this up so lets make this smart, patient, careful character dumb, impulsive, and careless to get him to where he needs to be".

But his conversations weren't "careless" - he was careful, as always, who he spoke with. IIRC, it was only Tyrion and Jon whom he spoke with about his misgivings. I can definitely see that the story was rushed - I think that's the most accurate critique of the last couple of seasons - and it certainly seems like his normally season's long plotting was rushed. But he was also out of time. Dany was going to take the throne, and he couldn't just wait it out.

Tyrion was a kind uncle to Tommen and Myrcella, but he NEVER favored Joffrey. It's not that he didn't believe Cersei was pregnant, it was that by that point in the story he should have known better than to use that as an excuse to believe she would be a reasonable person. He knows that while Cersei did genuinely love her children, that never made her any less vicious or dangerous. Even Sansa makes a note of how absolutely stupid Tyrion believing that Cersei would send the army to help in season 8 episode 1. Tyrion knows his sister well, he knows her cruelty and her ambition, he knows her paranoia, he knows the sting of betrayal. Him being fooled by her at that point in the story is unforgivable for his character.

As for the crypts, it doesn't matter that the Night King's control over the dead hadn't been fully witness because even we the audience (with no more information than Tyrion) saw what was coming from a mile away. "A being that can raise the dead? And we hide in a massive crypt filled with the dead? Eh, it's ok because we're not sure he can raise THESE dead". It was such an obviously bad idea that having a character whose entire premise is based around out-thinking his enemies agree to it feels like a disservice to the character.

Another instance in that last season was Tyrion STILL thinking he could reason with Cersei while the armies gathered at the gates of King's Landing. It's like his entire history with his sister was erased. He traveled across the world to escape her murderous impulses and now he thinks "well, maybe she'll surrender now". Tyrion knows Cersei better than anyone, even Jamie. We know she'd rather kill her own children before surrendering and letting them fall into the hands of her enemies. Ugh, that scene at the gates was such idiocy. Cersei had been sending assassins to kill Tyrion for YEARS, she has him in range of her archers and is perfectly willing to instigate the fight with Dany by killing Missandei because she has no desire to surrender, but instead she just lets him go? Fuuuuuuuuuck!

But isn't the entire show replete with Tyrion hoping he could reason with his sister? Almost like an innate character flaw more than a failed character arc. He'd misjudged his sister time and again, and continuing to do so is almost consistent. For lack of a better phrase, it's like his family is his weakness, even though he should know better, he always ends up trusting those he shouldn't.

You mentioned in another post that Daenerys's massacre was foreshadowed, and while I disagree and believe her actions in season 8 were also out of character, that would still be another big red flag that Tyrion somehow glossed over. Why would he ever believe that Cersei surrendering to Dany would be in her best interest unless he too was unaware of all the "obvious" clues to Dany's sudden desire to commit war crimes? Sansa says she once thought Tyrion was the cleverest man in the world, and he pretty much was until season 8 when all he did was make a series of bad decisions and developed the inability to accurately judge people's character.

I guess we can agree to disagree about her Season 8 meltdown. For me, the clues to Dany's meltdown weren't obvious to other characters - Jon and Tyrion and Varys specifically - because they weren't around for her entire character arc. Dany's meltdown was a slow burn, that started all the way back in Season 1, with her more than once threatening to "burn your cities to the ground" if they went against her. There are dozens of examples of her character's slow decline, a combination of literally losing everyone she ever loved, along with the "madness" already in her genes, etc. Plus, the obvious plot line that she was literally the only person who couldn't end up on the throne.
However, to your point, regarding Tyrion - I think this goes towards his weakness and hoping people finally do the right thing, because it was literally in their best interest. And Tyrion also made plenty of mistakes throughout the series - it wasn't just in Seasons 7 & 8 that Tyrion fucked up. I'm not sure it's fair to call those mistakes out while ignoring the ones in Seasons 1-6.

His relationship with Cersei wasn't just love, it was also subservience. And yes, while him still loving her can remain within his character, his breaking away from her hold was a big step in a series of steps over the course of the show that had him mature and develop from a jaded, arrogant, self-serving knight to someone who can truly strive to be honorable.

When he tells Brienne about the Mad King's plot he never once mentions the fact that he could have been killed as well in the fires. He mentions twice that he urged Aerys to surrender peacefully (before the "burn them all" order) knowing his father would ally with Robert and sack the city. The only people who would suffer from that series of events were the innocents. He lets emotion overcome him when talking about the idea of the innocents burning in their homes. That his oath was not more important than that. That's not a sign of him not caring. This scene is supposed to be a look behind the veil so I don't think "he said this but didn't really mean it" is a fair assessment.

The scene with Edmure is a good one. I think it does show that he really is trying his best to be decent. He says he isn't hateful and he means it. It's not the first time he has used the "we're at war" excuse to do or threaten awful things, but it isn't until after Edmure continually derides him and tells him that he can never be a good man because of the things he has done in the past that he slips back into his old self. He doesn't hate his enemies and he's genuinely trying to be better, he just doesn't care about people who stand between him and Cersei. I think it makes his arc better to have these two steps forward, one step back moments. Ending on the backstep is just such a terrible way to conclude a story. Even at his worst Jamie was never hateful. Ambivalent, yes, but not hateful the way Cersei was.

But Jaime never broke away from her. He was always loyal to Cersei - even going north to fight the dead he was protecting Cersei in his own way, while balancing his "oathkeeper" quality as well.
But ending on the backstep is a perfect example of his two steps forward, one step back. His time in Winterfell defending it from the dead and knighting Brienne, but then staying true to his undying love for Cersei is precisely what you're describing above. It seems like what you're saying is actually justifying Jaime's actions in the last two seasons, keeping true to his character. Maybe I'm misunderstanding though.

[starstationprofm]

What about Daenerys forgetting about the Iron Fleet? Was that also "subtly foreshadowed"? Because, you know, if she never lost the dragon and Missandei then she would have never destroyed the city in the first place. It was Missandei who told her to destroy it as her last words.

So tell me, was it foreshadowed that Daenerys would lose everything and fail completely because she forgot the most powerful fleet in the world?

That's also part of the bad writing. Rhaegal should've died during the battle in King's Landing, AFTER Cersei sounded surrender. Some Siege Engineer with a vengeance shoots Rhaegal down after he stops flying ( because surrender ) and that makes Dany go mental and she just burns everything.

was it foreshadowed that Daenerys would lose everything

The prophecy did say her child would bring great destruction = Drogon.

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She was always ruthless to her enemies but her whole arc till the point was freeing slaves and saving the normies from oppressive overlords. Guess you forgot when she was so horrified her dragons killed yon sheep farmers child she locked her children up in a deep dark hole? Her pal got killed tho so fuck it! Let's burn some women and children!

I didn't forget, she just went through a ton of emotional trauma. She lost her 2 children, Missandei, Jorah, her identity ( Jon is the rightful heir, invalidating her whole life ), her love ( Jon betrayed her and didn't seem to want to be with her anymore ) all in the span of weeks.

She just snapped.

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Pivotal to whom? Was this fanfic of Dany's progression worthy of regressing Drogo's character, whom by the way never raped Dany in the books.

This isn't exactly true. For starters she's what, 13 in the books while Drogo is around 30 and it would be dodgy either way. And if a guy keeps insisting until you're too afraid to say "No" it's not exactly cool either. That's what happened on her wedding. Their relationship was still an abusive one where she was treated as an object until she learned their tongue and became more assertive.

Also even if their first night seems nice, in the others he's treating her like a sex toy and hurts her.

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for that world? she IS normal.

Tyrion burns the opposing force attacking king's landing. Ned Stark makes it a point of pride to perform his own executions. Jon Snow executes a whole bunch of people, one of them a child for insurrection.

she doesn't do it just because. she has clear reasons for what she does same as all the people above, and she does it as a last resort after trying diplomacy first. but when they do it, its fine. when she does it - she is craaaaaazy. there is NO build up as to why she loses it all of a sudden and burns down the king's landing. there is a build up to her burning down scorpions and if she just burned down the red keep? again, there is precedent to that.

You're comparing killing people in battle or executing them because the law says so with crucifying people that were in no position to fight. Pretty weird.

And Ned would never allow people to be crucified. Flaying is forbidden in Westeros for a reason.

Daenerys showed her true colors. She didn't have to torture those people, she did it out of sheer malice. Her madness was forshadowed several times.

[cubby]

You keep saying these story beats were PERFECT, and TERRIFIC, and WELL PLANNED OUT, and TOTALLY IN CHARACTER, but you have to admit that if that were all true there wouldn't have been such a major turn in audience and critic sentiment about the show. And you can't use the excuse "well, people just expected different". We had almost 6 seasons with some pretty major changes from the books. Sure, plenty of people (myself included) wished they'd included certain scenes and characters that didn't make the cut, but overall popularity remained high because there was consistency in the quality. None of those early seasons invoked such strong, widespread dislike for what the showrunners had done.

People were excited. They might have had expectations, but for the most part I'm certain they were still ready to be surprised. There have been plenty of wildly popular shows before, and never has one taken such a major hit to its popularity in its final season (at least none that I can remember). It's well documented that the ending of the show was rushed. D&D also made major decisions about certain characters that were entirely their own and not confirmed by GRRM. Between those two factors, quality and consistency suffered.

I'm saying those things because I think they are true, and with the metrics we can see, they are true. Rushed? Sure. Otherwise, a terrific ending. And the metrics show this to be true. The last episode was the most watched in the entire series. You're saying there was a lot of audience discontent and sentiment - but how can you track that? You're making that claim, but there aren't any ways to objectively track those metrics. And it's well known that complaints/complainers are louder than people who just enjoyed something and moved on.

We know that season 8 was the most viewed of all - objectively. We know there were audience and critic complaints - but what we don't know is whether those complaints outnumbered those that enjoyed it or liked it. Does that make sense?

So why am I here, doing what I'm doing? Because I'm tired of hearing all these bullshit complaints (not yours specifically, I'm really enjoying our conversation here, but all the other of that phenomenon) about the show being "shit" and "awful". It objectively wasn't. I'm fine with people not liking the ending, but if they are going to come here and complain about, I'm here to defend it.

And so far, aside from a few outliers (you the chief amongst those - a compliment to you in case that isn't clear), people's complaints are complete bullshit. If they don't like something, fine - subjective and all that. But if they bring up specific complaints, I'm trying to defend them.

[Sorrowseer]

No it was bad, but, you can choose metrics that support your desired outcome, but the fact that we are almost 29,000 posts in and it still comes up shows that it was bad. If you like it thats ok, I respect that, but if you want to force people to see it from your point of view, its not gonna happen.

[Witchblade77]

I.. wow.. well.. all i can see it, if you enjoyed it, good for you. it bothers me that people keep trying to defend it as actual quality content despite all the evidence to the contrary. up to and including throwing in some much headcanon and double standards, my head is figuratively spinning. because you have to JUSTIFY why you enjoyed it so it MUST be good.

I'm sorry, but no. its not. it was not properly foreshadowed, you ARE using double standards, while selectively ignoring anything that doesn't fit into the narrative you wish to see.

yeah, some of those scenes looked cool. in isolation. they look fantastic as watchable snippets on youtube. but as a complete narrative?

you liked the scenes enough to excuse away everything else. that's nice. cool motif. still shit writing.

[Adamas102]

I'm saying those things because I think they are true, and with the metrics we can see, they are true. Rushed? Sure. Otherwise, a terrific ending. And the metrics show this to be true. The last episode was the most watched in the entire series. You're saying there was a lot of audience discontent and sentiment - but how can you track that? You're making that claim, but there aren't any ways to objectively track those metrics. And it's well known that complaints/complainers are louder than people who just enjoyed something and moved on.

We know that season 8 was the most viewed of all - objectively. We know there were audience and critic complaints - but what we don't know is whether those complaints outnumbered those that enjoyed it or liked it. Does that make sense?

So why am I here, doing what I'm doing? Because I'm tired of hearing all these bullshit complaints (not yours specifically, I'm really enjoying our conversation here, but all the other of that phenomenon) about the show being "shit" and "awful". It objectively wasn't. I'm fine with people not liking the ending, but if they are going to come here and complain about, I'm here to defend it.

And so far, aside from a few outliers (you the chief amongst those - a compliment to you in case that isn't clear), people's complaints are complete bullshit. If they don't like something, fine - subjective and all that. But if they bring up specific complaints, I'm trying to defend them.

Of course a lot of people watched it. It was a highly popular show in its final season. And yes, we do have plenty of evidence. Critic responses are compiled on various sites and there's no question that the final season received generally unfavorable reviews. While I certainly wouldn't trust the audience numbers on sites like, it's still very clear that there was a massive backlash across various forms of social media. This very thread shows a big shift in sentiment as well. There are many examples in interviews where the cast openly state their disappointment with the show in its final seasons. And probably the most telling example is the almost immediate cancellation of most of the followup projects that had been planned, almost certainly as a result of the sudden and massive shift in popularity. The response to the final season was so strong that the money train had to be stalled in order to rethink strategy.

From a personal standpoint, every single one of my friends watched the entirety of the show. Only about half read the books, but all came away feeling disappointed with the ending. Not because of missed expectations concerning the story itself, but rather because the quality of the narrative was shed completely in order to produce spectacle (basically the general critic response to the final season).

When you say that these characters all stayed true to how they were from the beginning, that's not really a good thing. That means they stagnated. All the major ones had arcs that progressed across the series, but the only argument in favor of their endings is "well, it's no surprise because they were always crazy and cruel, they were always in love with their sister above all else, they always cared about their family, they were always meant to be a killer". That's not what an arc is supposed to end with. It's a narrative failure, and happened across the board with almost every character. If all the character endings feel dissatisfying because "they were always like that" then that means none of their arcs mattered and it was all in service of action scenes. Having read the books, I know this isn't GRRM's style of story telling. And even for a lot of people who didn't read the books, the feeling that there was a narrative shift between the first 5 seasons and the last two is palpable.

[Jastall]

I could stomach the rushed nature of S8 (and S7 honestly as well, even if it were less blatant). It lowered the show's quality but I could have worked with it had they not basically ruined half their characters and had most of the rest do nonsensical shit.

No, Arya having no connection to the Long Night plot at all (besides the clumsy last minute "blue eyes" nonsense with Mel) doesn't mean it's fine that she's the one to appear out of thin air like a WoW Rogue to oneshot the Night King. That's just stupid.

No, the assembled army in Winterfell making so many obvious tactical blunders than even my friend who has no knowledge of such things thinks they're being idiots is not acceptable.

No, Bran being named King of Westeros completely out of nowhere because he "has stories to tell" when he had literally 0 connection to the Iron Throne plotline isn't some masterful subversion of expectations, it's just stupid.

That same Bran immediately deciding to grant the North its independence on a whim while Dorne and the Iron Islands just smile and nod is just stupid.

Tyrion suddenly trusting Cercei to be a good person because she's pregnant was stupid. In general the man was made into a total moron for all of S8.

The same Cercei having literally all her remaining enemies, including the last dragon, dead to rights outside of her walls and deciding to let them live and instead kill Melissandre for the lulz was probably the second most retarded scene of the show's history, behind Arya's "nothing personel kid" nonsense.

Grey Worm not executing Jon on the spot for murdering his Queen when he was shown half an episode ago to kill random Lannister soldiers out of spite was stupid.

Varys basically announcing to everyone he can that he's conspiring to oust his Queen based on little but his feelings was stupid.

Jaime throwing five season's worth of character development to the trash bin was stupid. Unlike other points, this could have worked had the show earned it, but he does a 180 from the fairly honorable Jaime that knights Brienne (and uh, sleeps with her which was odd) to Cercei's lapdog in the span of one episode.

Dany going out of her way to torch every single person in KL was terrible. Again, this could have worked had the show earned it, but their explanation was the clumsiest shit ever. "Oh she heard the bells which reminded her of her dead family so she murderized the entire city" say whaaaat? None of that was developed towards at all, and no, foreshadowing is not character development. Had she torched the Red Keep not caring about the refugees inside I'd have been 100% on board but going out of her way to kill everyone else before heading towards her main objective and her actual enemy? That, well, is just stupid.

The only major character that stayed consistent was Jon because he was consistently useless.

[cubby]

Of course a lot of people watched it. It was a highly popular show in its final season. And yes, we do have plenty of evidence. Critic responses are compiled on various sites and there's no question that the final season received generally unfavorable reviews. While I certainly wouldn't trust the audience numbers on sites like, it's still very clear that there was a massive backlash across various forms of social media. This very thread shows a big shift in sentiment as well. There are many examples in interviews where the cast openly state their disappointment with the show in its final seasons. And probably the most telling example is the almost immediate cancellation of most of the followup projects that had been planned, almost certainly as a result of the sudden and massive shift in popularity. The response to the final season was so strong that the money train had to be stalled in order to rethink strategy.

Where are you seeing those numbers? How were those compiled? I would genuinely like to see any kind of metrics on this claim.

From a personal standpoint, every single one of my friends watched the entirety of the show. Only about half read the books, but all came away feeling disappointed with the ending. Not because of missed expectations concerning the story itself, but rather because the quality of the narrative was shed completely in order to produce spectacle (basically the general critic response to the final season).

You see that there is no way to argue with this, right? Anecdotal evidence can't be debated or discussed.

When you say that these characters all stayed true to how they were from the beginning, that's not really a good thing. That means they stagnated. All the major ones had arcs that progressed across the series, but the only argument in favor of their endings is "well, they were always crazy and cruel, they were always in love with their sister above all else, they always cared about their family, they were always a killer. If all the character endings feel dissatisfying because "they were always like that" then that means none of their arcs mattered and it was all in service of action scenes. Having read the books, I know this isn't GRRM's style of story telling. And even for a lot of people who didn't read the books, the feeling that there was a narrative shift between the first 5 seasons and the last two is palpable.

I didn't say they stayed true to how they were from the beginning, I said they stayed true to their characters arc, and their endings were true to how we saw them develop, in as much as that is possible. Now, having said that, you have brought up some pretty good points based on my requests, and I want to briefly shout out how much I appreciate that.

The issue with Varys specifically. He did play his hand a little too aggressively, but still true to his character. Interestingly, your comment about characters staying true to how they were from the beginning being a bad thing seems to argue in favor of Varys' more aggressive moves to save the realm. Had he just stayed quiet and plotted behind the scenes, according to what you said, that would not be a good thing, right?

And there would almost have to be a narrative shift from the first six seasons to the last two, wouldn't there? There was no source material, just notes from the author. And unless GRRM was literally writing the scripts for each show, a change would almost have to happen. But a change in narrative doesn't mean the endings weren't good nor that the characters continued and fulfilled their character arcs, so to speak. It just means that, as we all knew would happen, D&D had to go it alone - because the only option that was never on the table was to halt production and let GRRM finish the books.

So your criticisms seem to be playing both sides of the table. If a character stayed the same throughout, it wasn't good. But in above comments you've said that those characters deviating from their previous actions was a bad thing - you can't have it both ways. And I don't think you're trying to. I think that you just don't agree with, nor like how they played out. And that's your right, of course, as it is mine to have liked how they played out.

But saying the ending was "terrible" and "people generally hated it" doesn't work, because it's objectively untrue - from all the data points we can draw from. Moreover, the ending was fantastic, and generally surprising - given that Bran ended up being king - rather than just another [insert name]. You could very easily argue that the ending was brilliant, in that no one say that coming.

And the character tragedies played out true to form.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

The only good thing about S8 was the self righteous whiny dragon girl getting shanked. Serves her right.

[Deadite]

I didn't forget, she just went through a ton of emotional trauma. She lost her 2 children, Missandei, Jorah, her identity ( Jon is the rightful heir, invalidating her whole life ), her love ( Jon betrayed her and didn't seem to want to be with her anymore ) all in the span of weeks.

She just snapped.

Yeah and she also just achieved everything she had been building to for her whole life. She won. The Iron Throne was in her grasp. She had twatted the Night King. Crushed all opposing armies. Just a few episodes ago she was talking about Breaking the Wheel. Ya know for the little guy. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on how stupid it was.


This has probs been posted before but this is pretty good take on it.

[cubby]

I could stomach the rushed nature of S8 (and S7 honestly as well, even if it were less blatant). It lowered the show's quality but I could have worked with it had they not basically ruined half their characters and had most of the rest do nonsensical shit.

No, Arya having no connection to the Long Night plot at all (besides the clumsy last minute "blue eyes" nonsense with Mel) doesn't mean it's fine that she's the one to appear out of thin air like a WoW Rogue to oneshot the Night King. That's just stupid.
Her killing of the NK was brilliant - "what do we say to death? not today" and the NK was the very embodiment of death. Likewise, she had been well trained over years (in the series) to be that assassin that was needed, and they foreshadowed both her stealthiness and her dagger move prior. You may not have liked it, but it wasn't "out of now where"

No, the assembled army in Winterfell making so many obvious tactical blunders than even my friend who has no knowledge of such things thinks they're being idiots is not acceptable.
I have to say, yeah, the Dothraki riding out was a bad idea - why they didn't stay and defend (which is far easier than attacking) is something I would consider a blunder. But then again, Dothraki don't defend, they attack. Something to think about.

No, Bran being named King of Westeros completely out of nowhere because he "has stories to tell" when he had literally 0 connection to the Iron Throne plotline isn't some masterful subversion of expectations, it's just stupid.
It was brilliant. He wasn't named "because he has stories to tell" - that's just silly if you're only pointing to that phrase. He was picked because he can't be tricked or lied to. Interestingly, and don't kill me for this, Bran is kind of a version of AI in a sense, knowing everyone's history, etc. I saw a write-up on that awhile back, I'll have to find it.

That same Bran immediately deciding to grant the North its independence on a whim while Dorne and the Iron Islands just smile and nod is just stupid.
The Iron Island's CAN'T be independent. The two times there were recently they pillaged and looted villages, right? Their "words" say they do not sow and reap, they take from others. And Yara Greyjoy knew that, hence being ok with not getting independence for her people.

Tyrion suddenly trusting Cercei to be a good person because she's pregnant was stupid. In general the man was made into a total moron for all of S8.

The same Cercei having literally all her remaining enemies, including the last dragon, dead to rights outside of her walls and deciding to let them live and instead kill Melissandre for the lulz was probably the second most retarded scene of the show's history, behind Arya's "nothing personel kid" nonsense.

Grey Worm not executing Jon on the spot for murdering his Queen when he was shown half an episode ago to kill random Lannister soldiers out of spite was stupid.
He was held back by others.

Varys basically announcing to everyone he can that he's conspiring to oust his Queen based on little but his feelings was stupid.
Maybe, but he was always about protecting the realm, and while the "announcements" were not the best choice, he didn't base it on "feelings" - and remember, he was right in the end.

Jaime throwing five season's worth of character development to the trash bin was stupid. Unlike other points, this could have worked had the show earned it, but he does a 180 from the fairly honorable Jaime that knights Brienne (and uh, sleeps with her which was odd) to Cercei's lapdog in the span of one episode.
He didn't. He stayed true to his oathkeeping ways, but never betrayed his one and only true love.

Dany going out of her way to torch every single person in KL was terrible. Again, this could have worked had the show earned it, but their explanation was the clumsiest shit ever. "Oh she heard the bells which reminded her of her dead family so she murderized the entire city" say whaaaat? None of that was developed towards at all, and no, foreshadowing is not character development. Had she torched the Red Keep not caring about the refugees inside I'd have been 100% on board but going out of her way to kill everyone else before heading towards her main objective and her actual enemy? That, well, is just stupid.
Her meltdown was based on 8 seasons of character development. She'd been threatening to burn innocents from Season 1.

The only major character that stayed consistent was Jon because he was consistently useless.
Yeah, totally useless, except for saving all of mankind by showing all the dead exist.
Maybe I shouldn't bother responding - you seem to be in the latter category of just random rants rather than thoughtful criticisms

Interesting - you make a number of mistakes in your criticisms here, if you don't mind, I'm going to add my comments in red under your statements, just so it doesn't get out of hand.

[Witchblade77]

speaking of the bells. something that is brought up in a video by Lindsey Ellis that i linked earlier. the king's landing bells have NOT meant surrender, EVER. until for some reason Tyrian claims that they do. multiple times in a show several people including Tyrian talk about the meaning of the bells and they do NOT mean seize fire. just another one of those things that writers kinda forgot about, I guess.

[starstationprofm]

Yeah and she also just achieved everything she had been building to for her whole life. She won. The Iron Throne was in her grasp. She had twatted the Night King. Crushed all opposing armies. Just a few episodes ago she was talking about Breaking the Wheel. Ya know for the little guy. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on how stupid it was.


This has probs been posted before but this is pretty good take on it.

She was winning the throne through war. Breaking the wheel my ass. Also she was all alone. Everyone she cared about betrayed her.

[cubby]

speaking of the bells. something that is brought up in a video by Lindsey Ellis that i linked earlier. the king's landing bells have NOT meant surrender, EVER. until for some reason Tyrian claims that they do. multiple times in a show several people including Tyrian talk about the meaning of the bells and they do NOT mean seize fire. just another one of those things that writers kinda forgot about, I guess.

The bells never did before, but wasn't there a conversation between Tyrion and someone else, to establish that meaning to them, for this battle/encounter?

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She was winning the throne through war. Breaking the wheel my ass. Also she was all alone. Everyone she cared about betrayed her.

This. Precisely. Her path to madness was laid out far earlier than "the last two seasons". Almost from the very beginning, she was losing anyone she ever cared about. At the end, those who had made it through, then died. At the very end, she was all alone with her stewing madness, and it broke free.

[Jastall]

Interesting - you make a number of mistakes in your criticisms here, if you don't mind, I'm going to add my comments in red under your statements, just so it doesn't get out of hand.

Sure, "mistakes" when your retorts are in the realms of your own opinions as well. Disagree if you will, don't pretend to correct me.

[cubby]

Sure, "mistakes" when your retorts are in the realms of your own opinions as well. Disagree if you will, don't pretend to correct me.

I should have phrased that better, my apologies. You're absolutely right, these are our own opinions, something not to be "corrected".

[Easo]

A point about character ages - basically all teenagers were made older for the show. I think it should be obvious why, no? Child murder, sex, yada yada? Also, honestly, more realistic if you want them to be capable of stabbing someone.

[Jastall]

A point about character ages - basically all teenagers were made older for the show. I think it should be obvious why, no? Child murder, sex, yada yada? Also, honestly, more realistic if you want them to capable of stabbing someone.

Yeah, that's one change on the show's part I 100% agree on. Bran being so mature at like 10 was a bit silly. Sansa being perved on by every man she meets at 13/14 even moreso, and yes even by Westerosi standards that's still quite young. Martin made the characters that young at first because he wanted a 5 year timeskip at some point but then changed his mind. The show aging the kids by 4/5 years was thus a wise move.

[Witchblade77]

The bells never did before, but wasn't there a conversation between Tyrion and someone else, to establish that meaning to them, for this battle/encounter?

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This. Precisely. Her path to madness was laid out far earlier than "the last two seasons". Almost from the very beginning, she was losing anyone she ever cared about. At the end, those who had made it through, then died. At the very end, she was all alone with her stewing madness, and it broke free.

how.. does that conversation establish meaning that THE CITY ALSO KNOWS TO CHANGE TO???? Tyrion is not inside the walls. as far as people living in king's landing know - bells do not mean surrender. how do THEY know that the meaning has changed?

This is why you think the season 8 was good. because for you consistent progression is not important. what they say at any given moment is more important then what they show.


and moreover, she was making rational decisions, ruthless but rational all the way up until "suddenly she snapped"

[Chelly]

I could stomach the rushed nature of S8 (and S7 honestly as well, even if it were less blatant). It lowered the show's quality but I could have worked with it had they not basically ruined half their characters and had most of the rest do nonsensical shit.

No, Arya having no connection to the Long Night plot at all (besides the clumsy last minute "blue eyes" nonsense with Mel) doesn't mean it's fine that she's the one to appear out of thin air like a WoW Rogue to oneshot the Night King. That's just stupid.

No, the assembled army in Winterfell making so many obvious tactical blunders than even my friend who has no knowledge of such things thinks they're being idiots is not acceptable.

No, Bran being named King of Westeros completely out of nowhere because he "has stories to tell" when he had literally 0 connection to the Iron Throne plotline isn't some masterful subversion of expectations, it's just stupid.

That same Bran immediately deciding to grant the North its independence on a whim while Dorne and the Iron Islands just smile and nod is just stupid.

Tyrion suddenly trusting Cercei to be a good person because she's pregnant was stupid. In general the man was made into a total moron for all of S8.

The same Cercei having literally all her remaining enemies, including the last dragon, dead to rights outside of her walls and deciding to let them live and instead kill Melissandre for the lulz was probably the second most retarded scene of the show's history, behind Arya's "nothing personel kid" nonsense.

Grey Worm not executing Jon on the spot for murdering his Queen when he was shown half an episode ago to kill random Lannister soldiers out of spite was stupid.

Varys basically announcing to everyone he can that he's conspiring to oust his Queen based on little but his feelings was stupid.

Jaime throwing five season's worth of character development to the trash bin was stupid. Unlike other points, this could have worked had the show earned it, but he does a 180 from the fairly honorable Jaime that knights Brienne (and uh, sleeps with her which was odd) to Cercei's lapdog in the span of one episode.

Dany going out of her way to torch every single person in KL was terrible. Again, this could have worked had the show earned it, but their explanation was the clumsiest shit ever. "Oh she heard the bells which reminded her of her dead family so she murderized the entire city" say whaaaat? None of that was developed towards at all, and no, foreshadowing is not character development. Had she torched the Red Keep not caring about the refugees inside I'd have been 100% on board but going out of her way to kill everyone else before heading towards her main objective and her actual enemy? That, well, is just stupid.

The only major character that stayed consistent was Jon because he was consistently useless.

You forgot Danny listening to Tyrion, the master political tactician, and his suggestion to give Gendry his own fucking noble house.

Yes, let's give the only surviving heir of Robert Baratheon (the king that gave King's Landing peace and prosperity) land of his own and make him a noble. Instead of imprisoning/getting rid of the biggest political rival.

Such garbage writing.