STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[Relapses]

You, single-handedly, are going to go and substantiate wows subscriber count?

I'm betting on a number between one and twelve million.

If I'm wrong, I'll drink an entire glass of water.

[arkanon]

I'm betting on a number between one and twelve million.

If I'm wrong, I'll drink an entire glass of water.

The WHOLE glass of water? Be realistic mate.......sheesh.

[Royru]

Because they have different business models, the point I was making is that Bungie doesn't care if people play or not since they already have your money once you've purchased the game. They have to keep releasing expansions to cover operating costs. Wow could hypothetically remain the same, as long as people stay subbed to the game Blizz is making money. Obviously people would start to get bored so they release new content to keep people interested same as every other game.

Okay now what does this prove? How does this push the discussion further? I'm saying it can be better. You aren't offering anything to the conversation by pointing out that these two games have different business models.

Wow is closing on it's 18th Birthday iirc, Blizz knows that they can't keep the steam going and the playercount getting smaller is expected at some point in the life cycle of a product. However many "new ideas" they introduce into WoW will probably NEVER bring them back to Wotlk numbers. Games peak and taper off.

Again, what I'm suggesting is improving the game for casuals so the sub numbers increase. What does this offer at all? Numbers fell because it's not at its peak, okay I got it. You're right. What are you contributing with this information? I'm saying changing the game to a more casual friendly game will make it better. Nothing you have said has countered this at all. You are just saying they are making money without doing this. That's not offering anything to the conversation at all. Battlefield 2044 still made money by releasing a god awful game, but there are suggestions and complaints on how they could have made it better. You'd be silly to say "Well battlefield still made money so let's just leave it the way it is".

I didn't realise that 6 players in a party was "MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER", Wow raids have up to 30 players, that's 5 times more. I'm currently in the 3% of top M+ players and I wouldn't say I play all that much (just checked I've played on avg 1 hour a day since Shadowlands came out). What's your point ? that it proves that Wow isn't casual friendly and D2 is ? How long would you say it would take you in D2 from start to where you are now ? in /played.

I'm sorry and 5 is? Mythic + is a thing isn't it? You even said yourself heroic raiding goes into 10 man. So 10 is massive now but 6 isn't? Even if I am being generous and accepting your 30 man raid, 30 is by no means massive either my friend. Destiny 2 is still an MMO as well. The MASSIVE part comes from in the world, not in an instance.

How long would you say it would take you in D2 from start to where you are now ? in /played.

Well first let me move the goalpost back to where it belongs, just to be clear. I was specifically talking about how long it takes to get from start to a point to where you can start doing real end level content, not to where I am right now. (I'm just moving this here because destiny 2 has a ton of collections you gather throughout years that aren't really necessary for any content but you do accumulate a lot throughout the years)

In order from someone brand new at the game to go from start to real end level content they start the game and do the seasons current campaign. If you know what you're doing and have played destiny before I would say 4 hours. But I'll even be really generous here and say normally it will be done in 7 give or take. This will bring you to a light level of 1520. The max light level is 1560. Basically from 1520 to 1550 you almost get rewards by literally doing anything at all, like seriously anything you complete a 5 minute strike and you get 4 upgrades instantly. So 1520 to 1550 you can probably get this in about another 10 hours of gameplay and this gameplay is literally doing anything you want. Pvp? Que it. Solo rep grinds? Do it. Solo q strikes (wow normal dungeons) do it. Then when you hit the soft cap at 1550 you only get rewards from pinnicales which come from weeklies which can be all finished up in about 3-4 hours a week. Without including raids I think there is about 12-13 pinnicale rewards you can get? Each one increases your level of a piece by 2 (most of the time).

So playing 4 hours a week SUPER casually, you can step foot into the highest difficulty of content by about two months or so. If you went slightly deep at the start you could hit the softcap within a week of gaming fairly easy, at which point you are just needed to do your weeklies which are 99% done by doing SUPER casual content. I mean things that are similar to quing up for a heroic dungeon level of casual.

I did read it, I'm fully aware of what it says. I don't see how it disproves anything I've said.

I really hope you didn't because if you did, and you knew what you were talking about, you would know almost every single thing this person said is 100% incorrect.

Saying "na ah" isn't an argument.

I'm not arguing, I'm giving you a heads up that this was a bad take and was just making sure you understood this before I destroyed all of it's credibility...you know what? Let do it.

Right out of the gate from the article:

In Q2 2017, World of Warcraft reached 46 million monthly active users thanks to the Legion expansion.

Wow had 46 MILLION MAU in legion huh? It had 4 times it's highest reported sub count and this just flew under the radar? Lets look up the earnings report

https://investor.activision.com/stat...f-e890d2abbe08

Page 7

Oh BLIZZARD had 46million MAU, and this was when blizzard also was counting destiny 2. So this number isn't wow its all blizzard games including destiny 2. WoW isn't even mentioned on the highlights for BLIZZARDS accomplishments in MAU in this quarter. So this person didn't even bother to look this up at all.

By 2021, the MAU count had dropped to 26 million.

Again, this person doesn't understand 'blizzard MAU' doesn't mean 'wow'

As of 2022, around 4.8 million people subscribe to World of Warcraft.

Wow that seems really really high huh? Also seems like information noone has lets see his sources for this

Scroll Scroll Scroll

(Source: Statista)

The last time Blizzard gave official figures was in 2015. Back then, the official active subscriber count was at 5.6 million. Projections suggest that the number of active players should have fallen to around 4.6 million by 2022, though it’s hard to say for sure how accurate the estimates proved to be.

Okay now let's check out statista and see what they say

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...rs-by-quarter/

Oh.... this was made in 2016...and this was a guy using data 'trends' to guess what the sub would be by year which came out to be 4.6 as a projection.

This... this isn't even remotely accurate. This guy read an article from 2016 where a data trend would GUESS the sub numbers and he wrote an article claiming that this is the amount of subs we have now.

13. Each year, Activision/Blizzard makes around $87 million from WoW subscription sales.

Wow that's a super specific number that even blizzard hasn't posted for years I wonder how he got this data lets go back to his sources.

https://www.profitwell.com/recur/all...llion%20yearly.

Ok it's an article from 2019 where someone mentioned the sub count of wow's last earnings call where they told us the sub count and took that number x15.... so he is just giving us how much money blizzard made way back in wod and said that thats how much it is today...

And you know what just for fun...let's look up this person source on the time player and ages and such. I mean their sources have been pretty funny so far so...

http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001365.php

It's a survey...

From 2005....

...

So I will ask you once again, are you SURE you want to be using this article to support your stance?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

So I will ask you once again, are you SURE you want to be using this article to support your stance?

I have to say this article is a master piece of completely and utterly wrong in every way.

I thought people using Mmo population not reading that it’s just based off of Reddit was bad but his really takes the cake.

[Royru]

I have to say this article is a master piece of completely and utterly wrong in every way.

I thought people using Mmo population not reading that it’s just based off of Reddit was bad but his really takes the cake.

Oh yeah that article has mmo pop as a source too but the sources I mentioned were actually hilariously worse so I didn’t even think I needed to mentioned mmopop LOL.

[Relapses]

I have to say this article is a master piece of completely and utterly wrong in every way.

I thought people using Mmo population not reading that it’s just based off of Reddit was bad but his really takes the cake.

To be fair, the article is about as accurate and well-researched as a Baldular video and there's a non-insignificant number of people who think his videos are presented in good faith.

[Royru]

To be fair, the article is about as accurate and well-researched as a Baldular video and there's a non-insignificant number of people who think his videos are presented in good faith.

I’m not suggesting his takes are perfect, but at least he uses actual data to come up with guesses even if they are in bad faith. Better than an article of a guy literally saying wow has 120 million subscribers right now.

[Azharok]

...snip...

I don't, you win

[Vampyrr]

So it's not impossible

Dont be an ass

[VMSmith]

The MASSIVE part comes from in the world, not in an instance.

This should be stressed on this website. MMOs existed well before instancing was a thing. WoW was probably the first major MMO to include instancing as a serious feature. The first instance I ever became aware of was the Corellian Corvette instance in SWG.

Massively is, as you say, relating to the world of the game. It's the fact that hundreds or even thousands of players are interacting in the same game world simultaneously. It has nothing to do with instances, dungeons, raids, etc...

[Echo of Soul]

This should be stressed on this website. MMOs existed well before instancing was a thing. WoW was probably the first major MMO to include instancing as a serious feature. The first instance I ever became aware of was the Corellian Corvette instance in SWG.

Massively is, as you say, relating to the world of the game. It's the fact that hundreds or even thousands of players are interacting in the same game world simultaneously. It has nothing to do with instances, dungeons, raids, etc...

If hundreds or thousands of players interact at the same place the servers crash. Massive in MMORPG is referring to the size of the raids.

[Royru]

If hundreds or thousands of players interact at the same place the servers crash. Massive in MMORPG is referring to the size of the raids.

It’s objectively not but ok.

[ChairmanKaga]

Massive in MMORPG is referring to the size of the raids.

What? Is this delusional trolling?

[VMSmith]

I don't, you win

Fair play to you, you actually owned up to an error. Very few people can bring themselves to do that online.

[arkanon]

If hundreds or thousands of players interact at the same place the servers crash. Massive in MMORPG is referring to the size of the raids.

You can't be serious, can you? I'm totally fine with instanced parts of maps being included, because as you say tech has its limitations. That's the only correct statement you made though.

[Celement]

For YEARS I've been writing at Blizzard about cross-realm guilds.

- - - Updated - - -



No, mythic raiding is nowhere near the majority and that's a ridiculous claim to make. Let's all act as if mythic raiding has always existed. It hasn't of course and raiding was, if anything, healthier in the days when it didn't exist.

I would approach it from the angle of removing guilds and replacing them with cross server communities with all restrictions lifted ( the concept of realms are dead and seem to exist as new/returning player traps).

I think you could argue mythic style difficulty always existed it just existed as the end tier or heroic. Removing power from mythic would reduce it but I still think there would be interest in it.

[MoanaLisa]

If hundreds or thousands of players interact at the same place the servers crash. Massive in MMORPG is referring to the size of the raids.

No, there are plenty of MMO's that do not have raids. That's not what it means at all.

[Echo of Soul]

No, there are plenty of MMO's that do not have raids. That's not what it means at all.

Name one, one that actually has people playing it

[ChairmanKaga]

Name one, one that actually has people playing it

Ignoring everyone else replying to you?

[Lex Icon]

how about ditching normal and mythic raids? normal could be merged with lfr. you either queue for it or you make your own group. and heroic raids could probably adopt the mythic dungeon scheme instead.
also why have these insane ilvl increases? do they need to be double digit to be noticable? the whole going back to adding another 10 levels for the next expansion after going back to 60 just seem wrong to me. who or what are they even trying to cater to?