Last edited by Aeluron Lightsong; 2022-11-17 at 07:09 PM.
#TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde
Warrior-Magi
You'll be happy to know that dehumanising and considering other races as literal hellspawn is also universally frowned upon. But seriously don't try to defend torture itself, very few people will take you seriously. One can argue that it's an excusable evil in the most extreme circumstances but nobody in their right minds think it's somehow not evil.
I'd imagine that's part of the reason why they retconned Purge of Dalaran to have her imprison the Blood Elves rather then murder them outright with frostbolts.
Bold of you to assume there's any shard of philosophy left in the Horde after BfA's butchered storywriting. It's just an amalgam of mostly unrelated races with zero directionality in terms of leadership at the moment.
A big reason would be to provide an interesting character to pose as a mid or final boss to an expansion, because we've at this point exhausted the Horde stock of relevant NPCs. It becomes quite obvious when you're suggesting a complete nobody (Gey... who?) to be an expansion boss, I mean literally nobody cares about her, I've got plenty of guildmates who are completely unaware of her existence. Sales would plunge below late WoD and SL levels and Microsoft would have Danuser's head on a pole.
Turalyon on the other hand is a prominent lore character that goes all the way back to WC2. He's also got the authority as regent High King to do some real damage if manipulated, unlike Geya'rah who'd have her head bashed in by Thrall and co. before she actually gets anything done. He'd actually invoke some sort of emotion to fight against (be it sadness, regret, schadenfreude or otherwise) and it wouldn't be too far-fetched if we face the Light in some future expansion, again unlike Geya'rah who isn't aligned with a cosmic force. Every expansion is a product, and having Turalyon on the cover will sell infinitely better than having Geya'rah on it.
But to be honest as a Horde main I'd just not have faction wars to begin with. I'm actually pretty happy with how DF's forcing the factions to hold hands and sing we are the world.
Let me have my copium, Dickmann. Let me have my copium.
Seriously, though, I do think that the current characterization does at least leave room for Turalyon being the Alliance's well-loved but racist grandpa rather than being the victim of vicious battery with the villain bat. I do think that his portrayal thus far has been nuanced—substantially moreso than most other Alliance leaders. Then again, this could be a fluke in the vein of Stonetalon Garrosh.
I'm talking about Vereesa. There's a scene in the sewers where her Silver Covenant agents are seen using captured sunreavers as literal shark bait food for fun. Jaina never punished Vereesa/Silver Covenant for this.
In addition, she still teleported the blood elves into a PRISON. A magical prison btw. It's reasonable to at least assume that those prisoners could have been tortured... since they were taken to the Violet Hold, a magical prison. And Jaina throughout the entire event was lashing out in an anger at the betrayal, so it's very reasonable to assume that she would have ordered some sunreavers tortured in the Violet Hold.
Which is why Jaina comes off as very hypocritical in the novel.
It's just extremely cheap to turn Turalyon from a well-intentioned and pragmatic ruler to an all-out evil despot (and we all know how Blizzard writes their "tyrannical despots that must be dethroned", see MoP Garrosh, BfA Sylvanas, and Mengsk from Starcraft -- all of them are cackling Scooby doo villains, there's not a single shred of complexity and/or ambiguity, it's plain Good vs. Evil story). Turning Turalyon into a villain and making a Siege of Stormwind raid will simply be MoP/BfA rehash with a blue palette instead of a red one, don't expect anything beyond that.A big reason would be to provide an interesting character to pose as a mid or final boss to an expansion, because we've at this point exhausted the Horde stock of relevant NPCs. It becomes quite obvious when you're suggesting a complete nobody (Gey... who?) to be an expansion boss, I mean literally nobody cares about her, I've got plenty of guildmates who are completely unaware of her existence. Sales would plunge below late WoD and SL levels and Microsoft would have Danuser's head on a pole.
Turalyon on the other hand is a prominent lore character that goes all the way back to WC2. He's also got the authority as regent High King to do some real damage if manipulated, unlike Geya'rah who'd have her head bashed in by Thrall and co. before she actually gets anything done. He'd actually invoke some sort of emotion to fight against (be it sadness, regret, schadenfreude or otherwise) and it wouldn't be too far-fetched if we face the Light in some future expansion, again unlike Geya'rah who isn't aligned with a cosmic force. Every expansion is a product, and having Turalyon on the cover will sell infinitely better than having Geya'rah on it.
But to be honest as a Horde main I'd just not have faction wars to begin with. I'm actually pretty happy with how DF's forcing the factions to hold hands and sing we are the world.
There's really not much left to add on the subject.
Last edited by Varodoc; 2022-11-17 at 07:31 PM.
Agreed. I think it's a good thing, though I maintain my hope they don't just villain bat Turalyon.
To be fair, in this instance it is true that the Light isn't really subject to the same degree of moral convolution as normal, human characters. I think it was something of an odd retcon since the Light actually was meant to be a transcendent force which actually was devoid of evil. It seemed especially superfluous since the Light is a religion with multiple followers of multiple stripes, so it is possible for there to be a faction of extreme Light-worshippers who fail to actually execute its will as intended, such as we had with the Scarlet Crusade. We already had a pretty good excuse to have Light-themed baddies.
Honestly, I think the Titans were always better as cold, amoral Lawful Neutral aliens, which is how they were originally-depicted. This isn't a significant change... according to their portrayal up until Legion. The issue is that Legion and Chronicles kind of derailed this. The introduction of the Void Lords and the like gave Algalon and his ilk a very good reason to exist and made the origination process seem like an unfortunate but wholly necessary thing to save the universe. Unequivocally, planetary genocide is preferable to multiuniversal metaphysical annihilation or eternal torment by the Void Lords. In Legion and in Chronicles, the Titans were portrayed as emotional, fallible and humanlike beings that just happened to possess extraordinary power.
This change is a return to form, but does effectively turn Legion through Shadowlands into an awkward period during which the portrayal of the Titans was entirely different. It's a trough is a continuous line of character, and it makes things feel very inconsistent.
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Honestly, that still needs a good explanation. Maybe Dragon Isles will open the path for a retcon that could help render that more sensible due to the amount of stupidity that it accidentally lends the Titans.
As for the Titans as a whole, my other comment on this matter sums it up. I like the reversal to the pre-Chronicle portrayal of the Titans as cold, alien authoritarian beings, but this also confuses things because they're also portrayed as fallible, emotional, and very much moral beings in Chronicles and Legion.
what's the Turalyon debate, haven't you read Tides of Darkness & Beyond the Dark Portal? read and you understand that he is as soft as Anduin.
Yes, but that's different from Turalyon effectively escaping his crisis of faith about Orcs existing because the Light created everything on Azeroth, Orcs are not from Azeroth, therefore the Light could not and did not create something like Orcs. His logic is valid, but it seems pretty harsh to effectively declare an entire race to be exempt from the mercy and justice of a transcendental force. As I said, I don't think he's a villain, but he's definitely not a soft person and seems to have the foundation for a bit of a dark side.
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Their portrayal in Legion is as emotional, humanlike beings which are entirely fallible. There is some room for interpretation, but I read their behavior and the sentiments they project as something that isn't really as alien as they were always otherwise portrayed as.
I think it would have done wonders simply to portray the Titans as substantially more robotic, alien, or otherwise inscrutable and unemotional in Legion—the portrayal they're stuck with makes everything seem very awkward. Furthermore, although Chronicles is apparently skewed now (which is very stupid, given it was originally supposed to be an absolute final source), the information therein is still broadly correct. Algalon is still something considerably more ethically-justifiable even from an emotional, human perspective—in fact, the absence of the origination process would be more inscrutable or difficult to justify due to how extraordinarily high the stakes are with the Void Lords, essentially rendering any opposition to the idea in any case except the extraordinary circumstances of Loken's meddling unjustifiable except from the most lunatic, self-destructively deontological moral framework because the stakes are metaphysical, as opposed to just physical, annihilation. If it comes down to an eternity of torment/nonexistence due to the Void or physical destruction without harm to essential/spiritual components, the latter seems pretty preferable.
Poggers in the chatta? https://twitter.com/unshackled_fury/...xI652xv1OlqQjA
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Super excited about this considering the reveal of tons of encrypted content already from Ion. Hype!
#TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde
Warrior-Magi
The world revamp dream will never die!
There is nothing to discuss in this expansion. Timeskip is the only thing that pushes the plot.
Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.
We can at least take Uldorus off that list: the Uldaman books confirm it Uldorus = Tyrhold and say what its purpose is (turning Azeroth energy into arcane and putting it into water).
I'd say replace that with "where do Elements come from/how are Elune & the Dream connected to them" as I think that is absolutely going to be explored.
Last edited by Cheezits; 2022-11-17 at 08:11 PM.
Considering that Odyn and the Old Gods seem to be in charge of most bad things the Keepers have done, I would not be shocked if they retcon the "order in the water" thing to be solely Odyn's doing. Just to shut people up that are mad the Titans are wahhh fascist
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The waters infuse the dragons with health, power and subtle order inclinations.