They changed Ji Firepaw :(

[Keoren]

and also yes that would be fine, because it would be subverting the gender convention and challenging attitudes.

Eye for an eye never really works out. You seem like you just want to punish men for all the pain and suffering you consider the women of the world have gone through.

[crabmousse]

It's time to stop trolling, man. I don't need all this stupid in my day. Have you ever considered the possibility that a great many women are comfortable in their femininity? My girlfriend for one is very happy being complimented on her appearance, and gorgeous is generally a non-offensive way to compliment a woman on her appearance.

I don't know what sex you are, how old you are, or what you've actually accomplished in life, but thus far you seem to do nothing but stand against a wall and villainize anyone who thinks differently than you do, even ostentatiously claiming fascist ideals and motivations. The hell?

I also don't know how many sociology courses, psychology courses, or anything else you've taken, or studied, and even outside of that, women do think very differently from males. I don't mean that in a sexist way, ask any rational woman and she'll probably admit that she doesn't fully understand men or even herself sometimes. Men can say the same thing. That said, as a general rule in our society that emphasizes femininity and masculinity (which the majority are MORE THAN ALRIGHT WITH) women generally easily take to an emphasis of beauty, and their appearance becomes an important part of how they define themselves and view themselves. Once again, ask any intelligent, rational woman. And with this in mind, it doesn't make any sense to have changed Ji's lines.

It just conforms to the gender dichotomy that remain a steady part of Western culture. Men are viewed for strength, women for beauty. That doesn't mean those are mutually exclusive, infact, the male line can easily be viewed as sexism because it highlights a problem for men that pride themselves on something other than physical ability. I could find it sexist if I really wanted to, being a white male, but I've got better things to waste my time with.

Another thing is, how DARE you assume that because someone, male or female or otherwise dislikes extreme feminism, that they dislike intelligent women. You then assume that the only intelligent women are those follow ideals of extreme feminism.

Once again, I care a whole lot about my girlfriend and her thoughts and feelings. She's defined herself as an individual, is extremely intelligent and loves to dress in various things and look good, and also unique. She also loves gaming and other such things, and we can debate for hours about philosophy etc. A reason you're trolling, is that no rational individual would argue for equality and women's rights, and then discount the intelligence of all women who want to embrace their femininity. How dare you.

So yeah. Ji's line should have stayed. It gave him even more personality. (I'd also like to point out, that being overt about flirting is one of the better ways to let women know you're interested. Since Ji is a flirtatious character, this obviously applies here. Ask any rational woman. You don't get anywhere with anyone, male or female, unless you're semi-obvious about being interested, at least.)

you're off on a ridiculous tangent, you misunderstand me and I can't be bothered responding individually to that wall of text. I'm not implying that all intelligent women should dress in potato sacks. a compliment has a context. I doubt either of you would be comfortable with every man in the street telling her how good looking she is.

as I've said a million times, we can deal with sexism directed at men once we achieve something close to equality.

[Deleted]

<snippety>

Well said.

[crabmousse]

Eye for an eye never really works out.

positive discrimination I guess does resemble an idealogical eye for an eye. however, it's been proven the only effective means of pushing society towards equality. if you have an alternative I'm all ears.

[Darnassian]

99% of players will not notice anything Ji Firepaw says

[Raidenx]

for starters look up gender balance in sexual crimes, rates of pay, and read up some on the male gaze.

I'm tired you thinking you speak for all women. Women have more rights in many cases too like custody battles, alimony, and financial access today. You just like to pick out things that further your anti equalty, entitlement driven agenda. I never see feminist argue for male reproductive rights, or the fact that the justice system benefits women more. Why did nobody care about Ji reinforcing the masculine gender role of men? Oh that's right, only other women perpetuate sexism by showing that they're weak and thin skinned. You want equality? Learn to suck it up. Everyone benefits from privilege in some way or another.

I was raised by a mother who had no business doing so, while my dad who was a great man, wasn't allowed to see me for more than 1 day a week. Maybe you live in a country where inequality is tangible and apparent, but in the western world it's nearly nonexistent. I'm also a minority in more ways than one yet I don't complain. I've never once been treated badly for being black. I've only been treated badly for being gay 3 times.


Take your cis-priviledge, man hating, patriarchy smashing views elsewhere.

Or grow a spine.


Wait, you have a toon named bloodfart. As a gay person I find that extremely crude and offensive!

[Ellsian]

I'm very disappointed in Blizzard for changing it. Someone should start new thread demanding every flirtatious NPC and line changed now.

[crabmousse]

Or because people who constantly find a crusade in everything are extremely tiresome.
Sometimes there is an issue, but sometimes there isn't.
Somehow I doubt an imaginary gameworld is the real bleeding edge of the Women's Struggle.

I don't understand what you mean. sure an imaginary gameworld (as I've stated already) isn't the front for an idealogical struggle. but are you implying that feminism in general is a worthless crusade?

[llandrywyn]

So I just finished my daily play through of the Pandaren starting zone (I'm procrastinating studying for midsemester exams :P) and I found seven changes to NPC speech from the previous builds. Some of them were to make directions more clear, some added more detail and then there was this small change.

Is it not, even slightly, possible that this revision was nothing to do with the feedback and just scheduled to be rewritten as part of the polishing process? There have been numerous examples of jokes being put in as placeholders (Theralion's original voice is the most well known example) that have been removed before live. I'm not sure I can even convince myself that this is solely to play in place here, but the possibility should at least be considered?

The more I think about it, the more I find myself conflicted about how I feel. Homogenization of dialogue and plot so as to offend the least number of people possible is, in my opinion, the thinking that brought us the lore of Cataclysm; "Crazy dragon is crazy; Green Jesus gets married, starts a family and happens to have spare time to kill steal from us." It was so lackluster it was almost enough to convince me I was done with WoW. Good character design doesn't come from concessions and group think - a character should be everything a person might be, but often even exaggerated, so as to more easily convey the traits you envisage in a limited period of time. A character can be sexist, misogynist and hateful without it being a reflection on the minds who designed him or the policies of a company.

Where I find myself agreeing with the people who find it inappropriate came about by considering a simple question; "If Ji Firepaw is a flirtatious, bordering on sexist, lecherous old panda, what benefit does it have to his story?" Honestly, I can't find any real benefit; without this line of dialogue he's still define as being somewhat flirtatious, impulsive and reckless. His character is still developed in the same way and my overall impression of the character remains unchanged, except I find him somewhat more endearing in that he retains a little more dignity. I freely admit my personal feeling shouldn't be a factor in the decision making of a creative enterprise, but the question I pose to this thread is this:

"If a character can be conveyed in the same terms, for the same overall feeling and with the same overall character traits, is it not just good and respectful practice for the designers to minimise content that might offend?"

[Count Zero]

positive discrimination I guess does resemble an idealogical eye for an eye. however, it's been proven the only effective means of pushing society towards equality. if you have an alternative I'm all ears.

Source, please

[crabmousse]

I'm tired you thinking you speak for all women. Women have more rights in many cases too like custody battles, alimony, and financial access today. You just like to pick out things that further your anti equalty, entitlement driven agenda. I never see feminist argue for male reproductive rights, or the fact that the justice system benefits women more. Why did nobody care about Ji reinforcing the masculine gender role of men? Oh that's right, only other women perpetuate sexism by showing that they're weak and thin skinned. You want equality? Learn to suck it up. Everyone benefits from privilege in some way or another.

I was raised by a mother who had no business doing so, while my dad who was a great man, wasn't allowed to see me for more than 1 day a week. Maybe you live in a country where inequality is tangible and apparent, but in the western world it's nearly nonexistent. I'm also a minority in more ways than one yet I don't complain. I've never once been treated badly for being black. I've only been treated badly for being gay 3 times.


Take your cis-priviledge, man hating, patriarchy smashing views elsewhere.

Or grow a spine.


Wait, you have a toon named bloodfart. As a gay person I find that extremely crude and offensive!

those example you're citing are further evidence of a patriarchal society that blindly labels women as baby machines unable to secure their own financial independence. I've stated several times that I believe in positive discrimination as a means to an end so stop wasting my time with your kneejerk crap.

---------- Post added 2012-04-12 at 04:56 PM ----------

Source, please

have a look at civilisation over the last few hundred years.

[Darkhallows]

you're off on a ridiculous tangent, you misunderstand me and I can't be bothered responding individually to that wall of text. I'm not implying that all intelligent women should dress in potato sacks. a compliment has a context. I doubt either of you would be comfortable with every man in the street telling her how good looking she is.

as I've said a million times, we can deal with sexism directed at men once we achieve something close to equality.

Yeah, I'm absolutely sure you can't really be bothered to respond to anything while you follow your pointless crusade to prove to no one that one individual male character being flirtatious is wrong. You know how sexist YOU are being right now? Don't perpetuate the issue.

Although you've already admitted fascist ideals and tendencies, so I expect nothing less. And no, neither of us would be OK with continued catcalling from every guy ever, but you're blowing up the issue. It isn't "every male panda on the island", it's the one that's hotheaded and flirtatious. That, and your repeated ignoring of male-focused sexism is solving nothing and making you look like someone who can only see one side of an issue. Lemme tell you right now, equality is never going to come in this world, no matter who is on top.

According to you, that means that male sexism and male stereotypes are alright, because they'll never be addressed.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Read this, first reaction was to clinch my hand into a fist and nearly scream out "curse you hyper-feminists!"


Honestly I now know why Blizzard can''t seem to come up with a better story than "here's a bad guy from lore, here's his minions, the <old gods/legion> did it."

Because some crazy left-wing group whines!


I'm gonna go do laundry!


Related pic: http://www.mjoneill.com/sites/defaul...ice-things.gif

[Branna]

hmm who is this Ji Firepaw annyways?

[Judge Malthred]

I am offended that he doesn't call me gorgeous any more! I will submit a ticket and maybe we can get ti changed back!

[crabmousse]

Lemme tell you right now, equality is never going to come in this world, no matter who is on top.

and I'm sure you prefer it that way so you can continue to complain how hard it is to be a white, western male. my heart bleeds.

[Bearshield]

Wow just wow... so I guess npc's aren't supposed to have personalities now. I'm a woman and I fail to see what was offensive about the npc flirting with female characters. But then, I take it as a compliment when a man hits on me unlike the feminazi that cried to Blizz about this npc.

It's just one thing after the next these days. First Brewmasters having alcohol references is bad, then this. I suppose the "mouth only hole banana go in" quest will be nerfed next. Why don't they just remove all npc comments altogether and just make everyone say: "Please take my quest" and "Quest complete, thank you," so that nobody gets their panties in a bunch over npcs with personalities.

[Urti]

because of course we live in an equal world with no persecution and no oppressed minorities right? I'm sure plenty of people would care, all the white western men in this thread who refuse to aknowledge that they still rule the world and get the easy ride while everyone else suffers.

As a white western male who has;
Spent the VAST majority of his life below the poverty line,
Watched his father literally work himself to death to provide for his family,
Had to shoulder the responsibility of raising someone else's children since age 17,
Suffered grievous injury just for the opportunity at an education others take for granted,
Been told by society that any and all suffering or pain I experience is something I deserve, based on the actions of completely unrelated individuals, and I should just shut up and take it.

I find this statement to be the single most absolutely ignorant, inflammatory, and hateful thing I've read on this forum. If that is truly the way you feel, then I have nothing for you but pity for your ignorance and loathing for your self-righteousness. You should very much be ashamed at yourself for promoting such unrealistic and naive misconceptions, although you'll no doubt just try to explain away any evidence contrary to your viewpoint in some manner conducive to your unfortunate delusion. You claim to be some champion for equality or fairness, you are just another voice of hate and narrowmindeness. You are just like the misogynists you think you see in every nook and cranny, the only difference is the flavor of ignorant.

[Darkhallows]

and I'm sure you prefer it that way so you can continue to complain how hard it is to be a white, western male. my heart bleeds.

If you have time to constantly post about this issue on a video game forum, in a thread pertaining to the changes made to one character, I'm sure your social and financial situation is fine. Hypocrisy might be a word to use here. Then again, you're advocating discrimination in general, as a"means to an end". Amazing people these days.

[TheDoomcookie]

The way they changed it was sort of weird... They could have kept his personality in that line while... Still making it less offensive? I don't know. I'm female, and was never offended by it. I didn't really understand why that person who typed up that thread was so offended. I think it was the "You must have trouble keeping the men off of you" part or something.

I'm pretty sad that they changed it though... Reading that line for the first time really caught my attention, and then I just laughed. No offense taken at all. It's just some NPC.