Ghostcrawler tweet about 25 man, let the speculation begin!

[Propainn]

Meaning that 25 man is easier.... Nice idea... lol

Blizzard will loose majority of their playerbase now if they punish 10 mans in any way. It sounds like thats what they are doing. So be ready for the bomb.

So because 25 man would drop 0/3 instead of 0/2, it would be easier? It's already impossible to upgrade full BiS to 2/2 in each slot, but 3/3? That'd require almost 2 content patches. The only real benefit would be the possibility of 3/3 weapons and trinkets.

[Kralljin]

15 mans have been done before, UBRS was a 15 man raid at one point (Then nerfed to 10, then to 5 player group) and it worked out perfectly fine. 10 mans will need to recruit a few more players, 25 mans will need to downsize a bit. Also ends the 10 v 25 debate.

UBRS was an Instance to get Gear for Ony / MC, nothing more.

Most had their attention on Ony / MC since those 2 were Raids that mattered, UBRS was merely a step, not the whole stair.

[Halifax]

I would like to see cosmetic rewards for 25 mans. Higher drop rates on mounts, unique titles, cooler looking gear. Maybe have bosses drop Flask Cauldrons that can only be used in 25 man difficulty zones.

As a former 25 man raider who now loves 10 man progression and has no interest what-so-ever in going back to 25 mans, I feel like these would be good solutions.

I don't like the idea of 25 man dropping higher level loot, because as a progression minded 10 man player, I would feel forced to throw together 25 man PuGs to get higher level gear to aid in 10 mans, which would instantly make 10 man progression no longer feel legit, since I'd be using gear higher than intended.

I would love to see 10 mans and 25 mans disappear and be replaced by a single 15 man raid size, but that's more of a new expansion thing, not something you do on a content patch. 25 mans have too much logistic crap, and 10 mans do admittedly feel a little small. 16 man raids in Star Wars felt big enough to have an epic feel, but small enough to not be a logistics nightmare (too bad the game was otherwise shit).

[Deleted]

Seems blizzard listened to the commuity for once.

They always listen.

When it’s costing them subs.

[Woobels]

They always listen.

When it’s costing them subs.

Which is what makes this weird, because if they piss the 10-man raiding community off, which is the great majority right now, they will probably risk losing more.
But unless the word controversial was something badly picked by GC it has to be something which will make 25-man more desirable.

[Gurbz]

Well, we can put the Upgraded Item idea to rest. GC just tweeted that they are currently planning on removing the item upgrade feature for 5.2.

ATM, we are planning on no upgrading during 5.2. Too early to evaluate how well it worked. I'm sure it will need tweaking.

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...55171583004672

[brunnor]

The football analogy is just to indicate that 10 (or 11) people working in tandem, in fluid motion, with teamwork, can be epic, since epic is just a subjective measure. Epicness can involve grace, herculean individual effort, teammates who know what their team will do without having to say anything - not just more things flying at the boss.

Imagine now if instead of an 11 person soccer team, you had 25 people on the team? Sure, there might be more mad rushes down the field, some more display of brute strength, but, imo, you lose some of the grace and melody of the other format. Bigger isn't always more epic - stop being so Western about that. A rugby scrum might be more brutal if they suddenly doubled the size of the teams, but it would lose that whirling dervish epic feel to it.

That's all I'm saying.

One last thing: Football at 11 is obviously not raiding at 40. Raiding at 40 had so much bloat and dead weight it was more like 15 man raiding with the fervent hope that the rest of the idiots in your group didn't wipe you. Having 40 people also meant trivial mechanics, and trivial rotations. Even in 25 mans (in an "average" heroic progression 25) there is dead weight, and you can skip mechanics by stacking massive CDs. Hell, BL's first H-Vizier kill, before the echo nerfs, involved them *not* stacking in noise cancelling zones and just stacking SLTs and barriers and other raid CDs. Try doing that in 10s. Try not killing adds in p1 H-Sha like Method did in 25 man in 10m, where you have to solo heal wherever you are. In 10s, you're not progressing in heroics very far if you have *any* dead weight. I'd say 10 mans are very analogous to 11 man football teams in that regard.

I agree that football is just an analogy for saying that 10 or 11 people can make something amazing. That wasn't may point. My point was that When given different sporting events(soccer, baseball football, basketball) in sports the one with the most players is the most prestigious. All I know is that if NFL switched to 7man games, I'd be annoyed and not watch it as much because it took something away. Even if football was 25man guilds, 10man guilds would be the 5-6 man games which, while being useful, aren't the top end. I'm sure some of the players are skilled and such, but if they were good enough, they'd be in the NFL making big money.

I'm tired of the argument you 10s people use in regard to cd's. Those cds are a MUST in 25man raids. You HAVE to have them in the raid to kill things and live through things. The reason they happen in 25s only in because it is unneeded in 10s due to the difficulty scaling of said ability. Deathwing's impale for example, on 10s could be survived by the tank using all of their personal CDs. On 25s, you needed a sac + something else to live through them. The damage ended up the same in both difficulties, but 25s needed more of them and more coordination to end up with the same result.

Blood legion, vodka, method and others like them shouldn't be used for comparison in stuff like this. They have endless players with endless alts almost. They actually can stack 4 resto shaman or 5 disc priests. That isn't something "normal" guilds can do. Using that as a justification for "25s skipping mechanics" is dumb. I'm sure Paragon could do the same thing if they needed to but they didn't because it wasn't required of them to beat the encounter. There is zero dead weight in any of the high end guilds, 10 or 25, it doesn't matter. Dead weight comes in to play in the middle ground guilds and it is also in 10s and 25s.

[Woobels]

Well, we can put the Upgraded Item idea to rest. GC just tweeted that they are currently planning on removing the item upgrade feature for 5.2.

ATM, we are planning on no upgrading during 5.2. Too early to evaluate how well it worked. I'm sure it will need tweaking.

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...55171583004672

Well that was shortlived.

[Deleted]

how is it?
raids drop loot
10man drops the same as 25man
25man drops more.
I fail to see how its "forcing people into 10man"

A 25 man raid also has more people then the 10 man raid, hence drops more loot.

Its not how much loot that drops in the instance that makes 25 guilds harder to run, while being in the actual instance the difference is smaller. Its the officers/guild leaders work behind the scene going on outside the raid that makes it more of a pain running a 25 man guild, while not getting any additional reward for the effort needed in comparison to 10 man, that is where the issue is that is killing the 25 man raiding scene.

[Radalek]

Well, we can put the Upgraded Item idea to rest. GC just tweeted that they are currently planning on removing the item upgrade feature for 5.2.

ATM, we are planning on no upgrading during 5.2. Too early to evaluate how well it worked. I'm sure it will need tweaking.

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...55171583004672

Well...some kind of change that will benefit 25 mans is incoming and having gear that is 1/2 upgraded right away seemed like least painful solution...now we need to wait and see what this 'controversial' idea really is. Like I said previously people that prefer 10 man alone will not like whatever way 25 mans get as a bonus. And based on blue posts some bonus or maybe complete overhaul of the system that will in the end benefit 25 mans is incoming, it's inevitable.

[Deleted]

Well, we can put the Upgraded Item idea to rest. GC just tweeted that they are currently planning on removing the item upgrade feature for 5.2.

ATM, we are planning on no upgrading during 5.2. Too early to evaluate how well it worked. I'm sure it will need tweaking.

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...55171583004672

They're not removing it, they're disabling it during 5.2 (or so they plan), the idea he said on another Tweet, was to enable upgrades only on patches with no raids.

[Shaley]

This tier's items will still be able to be upgraded, as well as blues with Justice Points. It's just that the 5.2 Raid items will not have a 0/2 line on it.

[Jaggid]

The might be considering abolishing 10 man's, and lowering 25 man to 20 man raids. This is the only controversial thing i can think of, they essentially destroy both raids and make a completely new one. 10 mans could easily form up to 20 and leftovers from 25 could find homes in 10 man guilds looking to create 20 man teams.

I wouldn't be opposed to this, its one raid they have to balance for one type of raid group, which would give them more development time to create better raids, especially without juggling 2 different raid sizes every tier.

[Espe]

25 mans already have plenty of incentives.

Check my sig for more info.

Maybe they are increasing the difficulty of 25m to bring it more in line with 10m? That might make more raiders actually take notice of what the 25m are doing. As it is now there is such lower executional difficultly for 25m that a lot of people just don't take them seriously.

[Hotsforyou]

Well, we can put the Upgraded Item idea to rest. GC just tweeted that they are currently planning on removing the item upgrade feature for 5.2.

ATM, we are planning on no upgrading during 5.2. Too early to evaluate how well it worked. I'm sure it will need tweaking.

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...55171583004672

Good. I hated that system.

[Maleric]

Well, we can put the Upgraded Item idea to rest. GC just tweeted that they are currently planning on removing the item upgrade feature for 5.2.

ATM, we are planning on no upgrading during 5.2. Too early to evaluate how well it worked. I'm sure it will need tweaking.

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...55171583004672

All that means is that if the upgraded item idea is how they're thinking about making 25s attractive, it's not happening in 5.2. Which seemed likely anyway, as the PTR is already up and this mystery idea hasn't even been announced yet.

[Shaley]

10 mans could easily form up to 20

I can tell you haven't been in a 10 man guild.

[Hecz]

10 man OS3D was harder than 25 by a significant amount while it was current content.

Stop. They were both equally easy with the zerg strategy and I don't even think people did that fight the normal way for much longer than about a month.

[Radalek]

25 mans already have plenty of incentives.

Check my sig for more info.

Maybe they are increasing the difficulty of 25m to bring it more in line with 10m? That might make more raiders actually take notice of what the 25m are doing. As it is now there is such lower executional difficultly for 25m that a lot of people just don't take them seriously.

Here you go again with your out of context sig that was talking about 25 man LFR, why don't you add that as well? In that same blue post it was stated that they feel 25 man is more complex. But you won't add that bit would you and would rather stir things up.

Try to carry one single person in 25 man raid on really hard progress boss. You can't carry anyone and you need 25 people organized and able to execute things perfectly. Same goes for 10 man but logistic is no where near the same.

[Talen]

Well...some kind of change that will benefit 25 mans is incoming and having gear that is 1/2 upgraded right away seemed like least painful solution...

No. Not with the current system. 1/2 wasn't impossible, but it was still the equivalent of a hefty 750VP per piece. Given the hugely reduced VP rewards from doing anything in game, that's arguably too strong. Especially on top of all the other issues.

Perhaps if they reduced the costs but increased the number of upgrade levels...150VP per level, with 25s dropping gear pre-upgraded to 1/8? Or had a rare item drop which allowed an upgrade? Pure VP reward would also work...but it'd lack the oomph of pre-upgraded gear.

now we need to wait and see what this 'controversial' idea really is. Like I said previously people that prefer 10 man alone will not like whatever way 25 mans get as a bonus. And based on blue posts some bonus or maybe complete overhaul of the system that will in the end benefit 25 mans is incoming, it's inevitable.

Overhaul? Not mid Xpac.
Bonus? Possibly - but the assumption that it will be a bonus to 25s remains just that....an assumption. Letting things be as they are because they can't think of a solution to please everyone would also be controversial and still be solution that wouldn't please 25s. Implementing QoL changes but not changes to drive players back to 25s would also be unpopular and controversial.

Of course, saying the sky is blue and grass is green would also be controversial to some folk.

Good. I hated that system.

It's a good system. Could do with some tweaking but making it literally impossible to get fully 100% BiS is a good idea.

All that means is that if the upgraded item idea is how they're thinking about making 25s attractive, it's not happening in 5.2. Which seemed likely anyway, as the PTR is already up and this mystery idea hasn't even been announced yet.

I got the impression it was nowhere near ready to being implemented. It was a controversial idea that they were simply discussing.

EJL