Battle for Azeroth Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[In Ogres We Trust]

What if they use the plan thingy on the vindicar to give us our own boats and instead of clicking on teleport things on argus we click on ports and such? It's far fetched but it could be that the vindicar is kinda a "test" to give us player boats (not saying i am in favor of them, just fits in the south seas idea)

So, in other words, you're in favor of Cataclysm Redux. Umm... no thanks. Also, given their desire to make money via the prolonging of the IP, it would be the height of stupidity to condense all of the remaining landmasses into a single expansion. Going forward, if it's in the South Seas/Oceanic region, then the area is going to get the Broken Isles treatment.

[GoodUsername55]

Not really. F2P means the games is free to play with a shop where you can buy stuff. and wow surely isnt going there because that would be throwing money away.
People who wanna play wow for free use the ptr for that....


BjoramierTheTroll: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...9246514#post-7

You are a really stupid troll if you think that is confirmation of not having a 7.3.5.

Keep your 7.4 wet dream to yourself. We're getting a small story patch. Come back to me once it's out and we'll see who the idiot is. (spoilers it's you, like always)

[Hitei]

What if they use the plan thingy on the vindicar to give us our own boats and instead of clicking on teleport things on argus we click on ports and such? It's far fetched but it could be that the vindicar is kinda a "test" to give us player boats (not saying i am in favor of them, just fits in the south seas idea)

Yes, that is a commonly put forth theory.

[Directionalk9]

It's very unlikely that they put all these new mechanics and interface assets in place for them to be used solely on Argus. Whether it's boats, submarines, airships, a different spaceship, etc, we can be confident the mechanics will be involved in the next expansion.

I feel the same way, it would be nice if we got a choice of vessel, like submarine, destroyer, or battleship.

[Chemical Ellis]

It's a shame, because I found the original idea much more interesting. Not just as an ogre fan, but as a springboard for future stories. Adding the idea of an ogre empire, but ultimately making it small, saying that it was more or less defeated long ago, and having it not really matter to the orcs by the end of Draenor, arguably makes the orc fatigue worse by downplaying the relevance of anyone else. Then again, Blizzard is not afraid of retcons. As much as I'd hate to have one of the Chronicles contradicted so blatantly, it wouldn't be that big of a deal to reveal something like the Gorian empire was always the black sheep of ogre empires and there was a long history of more powerful ones on another continent that simply left them to deal with their orc problems on their own.

In other words, I guess I'm saying that the continent is still on the table. Something like it could even appear next expansion if we get ogres, but if we do, I'd still expect them to retool an existing area for it or put them on an island, with the continent being a future idea.

This caught my eye, since one of the newer and more interesting fake leaks features vrykul and ogres.

The game seems to be taking the approach of trying to ignore all things WoD, and simply sweeping its loose ends under the rug. And I can't really fault them for that. Besides its abysmal reputation, once you've established the potential for alternate dimensions, alternate timelines, from which we can simply pull endless reinforcements, deceased heroes, plot convenience brand bandaids, the story instantly loses most of its stakes. I think the writers have realized that the whole alternate realities bit is a can of worms they shouldn't have opened (especially when it interferes directly with our own timeline, unlike the more enclosed Caverns of Time), and it's better now to look the other way.

If we ever do get playable ogres, I think it would be better for them to be Azerothian. One of the more interesting things to me in the in game history is how, at the end of the 2nd War, while orcs were being rounded up into camps, while trolls fled to Zul'Aman or were exterminated, ogres were pretty much ignored and allowed to go feral. Add to that some of the major island fortresses that were key strategic points in the war (but probably lost relevance post-war in a unified human Alliance), you've got a lot of potential for completely novel, sight-unseen ogre societies.

I like to imagine a tribe of orcs squatting in the Alliance ruins on Zul'Dare or Crestfall. Maybe they've uncovered the arcane relics of Dalaran's mage towers or the holy ephemera of Northshire's chapels. Cut off from the rest of society for decades, and given the means to expand their knowledge/abilities, I think we could easily see a wiser, more mystical, more civilized, Gorian-style ogre on Azeroth, than the lumbering brutes a lot of folks imagine.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

This caught my eye, since one of the newer and more interesting fake leaks features vrykul and ogres.

The game seems to be taking the approach of trying to ignore all things WoD, and simply sweeping its loose ends under the rug. And I can't really fault them for that. Besides its abysmal reputation, once you've established the potential for alternate dimensions, alternate timelines, from which we can simply pull endless reinforcements, deceased heroes, plot convenience brand bandaids, the story instantly loses most of its stakes. I think the writers have realized that the whole alternate realities bit is a can of worms they shouldn't have opened (especially when it interferes directly with our own timeline, unlike the more enclosed Caverns of Time), and it's better now to look the other way.

If we ever do get playable ogres, I think it would be better for them to be Azerothian. One of the more interesting things to me in the in game history is how, at the end of the 2nd War, while orcs were being rounded up into camps, while trolls fled to Zul'Aman or were exterminated, ogres were pretty much ignored and allowed to go feral. Add to that some of the major island fortresses that were key strategic points in the war (but probably lost relevance post-war in a unified human Alliance), you've got a lot of potential for completely novel, sight-unseen ogre societies.

I like to imagine a tribe of orcs squatting in the Alliance ruins on Zul'Dare or Crestfall. Maybe they've uncovered the arcane relics of Dalaran's mage towers or the holy ephemera of Northshire's chapels. Cut off from the rest of society for decades, and given the means to expand their knowledge/abilities, I think we could easily see a wiser, more mystical, more civilized, Gorian-style ogre on Azeroth, than the lumbering brutes a lot of folks imagine.

Thing is Ogres came from Draenor just as much as Orcs did so having Ogres from Azeroth is well very out of place unless it's the same ones from the original Draenor. Also we've had alternate timelines before so it's nothing new. WoD just took the alternate Universe and brought(Via time travel but not by us) it forward.

[DeicideUH]

This caught my eye, since one of the newer and more interesting fake leaks features vrykul and ogres.

The game seems to be taking the approach of trying to ignore all things WoD, and simply sweeping its loose ends under the rug. And I can't really fault them for that. Besides its abysmal reputation, once you've established the potential for alternate dimensions, alternate timelines, from which we can simply pull endless reinforcements, deceased heroes, plot convenience brand bandaids, the story instantly loses most of its stakes. I think the writers have realized that the whole alternate realities bit is a can of worms they shouldn't have opened (especially when it interferes directly with our own timeline, unlike the more enclosed Caverns of Time), and it's better now to look the other way.

If we ever do get playable ogres, I think it would be better for them to be Azerothian. One of the more interesting things to me in the in game history is how, at the end of the 2nd War, while orcs were being rounded up into camps, while trolls fled to Zul'Aman or were exterminated, ogres were pretty much ignored and allowed to go feral. Add to that some of the major island fortresses that were key strategic points in the war (but probably lost relevance post-war in a unified human Alliance), you've got a lot of potential for completely novel, sight-unseen ogre societies.

I like to imagine a tribe of orcs squatting in the Alliance ruins on Zul'Dare or Crestfall. Maybe they've uncovered the arcane relics of Dalaran's mage towers or the holy ephemera of Northshire's chapels. Cut off from the rest of society for decades, and given the means to expand their knowledge/abilities, I think we could easily see a wiser, more mystical, more civilized, Gorian-style ogre on Azeroth, than the lumbering brutes a lot of folks imagine.

Yes, I agree that any playable ogres would come from Azeroth (or Outland), not Draenor.

The key to introduce playable ogres is already in the lore. The Stonemaul clan was conquered by Rexxar and joined the Horde during the early days of Durotar and Orgrimmar. They've been in game as NPCs. Later, in Cataclysm, the Dunemaul ogres from Tanaris were forced into Horde service by the goblins.

What they could do is: now that Theramore is gone and Onyxia is dead, the Stonemaul start conquering Dustwallow. There are mountains south of Onyxia's lair and north of Thousand Needles that could easily be adjusted to have an entire ogre city, using Draenor architecture. Put other ogre clans seeking that city and joining the Stonemaul, put Rexxar as racial leader, and you have playable ogres.

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Thing is Ogres came from Draenor just as much as Orcs did so having Ogres from Azeroth is well very out of place unless it's the same ones from the original Draenor. Also we've had alternate timelines before so it's nothing new. WoD just took the alternate Universe and brought(Via time travel but not by us) it forward.

Of course he means that ogres came from Draenor originally, but he's talking about the ones that are in the main universe and have been living in Azeroth for a generation, not the ones in AU!Draenor.

[Syegfryed]

Yes, I agree that any playable ogres would come from Azeroth (or Outland), not Draenor.

The key to introduce playable ogres is already in the lore. The Stonemaul clan was conquered by Rexxar and joined the Horde during the early days of Durotar and Orgrimmar. They've been in game as NPCs. Later, in Cataclysm, the Dunemaul ogres from Tanaris were forced into Horde service by the goblins.

What they could do is: now that Theramore is gone and Onyxia is dead, the Stonemaul start conquering Dustwallow. There are mountains south of Onyxia's lair and north of Thousand Needles that could easily be adjusted to have an entire ogre city, using Draenor architecture. Put other ogre clans seeking that city and joining the Stonemaul, put Rexxar as racial leader, and you have playable ogres.

is fine of course, or they could do some interesting things, like if the expansion is rly about south seas, they could do like they did with goblins, a island full of then, and they meet the horde in time of need, so they join then, im rly wanting to see the Ogrezonian island

[Jokubas]

If we ever do get playable ogres, I think it would be better for them to be Azerothian..

I've thought this for a long time myself. As much as I liked even the little expansion we did get to ogre lore in Warlords of Draenor and I think it would have been a thematically appropriate time to get playable ogres, I'm kind of glad we didn't. Something I still think was awkward about Garrosh is that he was completely isolated from the politics that define Azeroth, and yet acted like he had a long history with the Alliance once he came to Azeroth. I want playable ogres to be from our timeline and know our history.

That's also why, despite considering options like our timeline's "ogre continent" surviving in a broken state somewhere else in the Nether, like Outland, it hasn't been my favorite option because it leaves us with a similar problem: those ogres would have no idea who we are and no reason to care.

I've actually been working on a New Goria idea myself (involving the Stonemaul) for my website, but it's on hold because I've got a lot of other things going on right now, and if we do get ogres announced next month, it will feel like a waste of effort I already don't have time for. But I'm really warming up to the idea of just expanding the ogres we have on Azeroth. It seems so obvious in hindsight, but I've always tried to build on existing things to a fault.

Something this thread today has made me realize, is that we still don't really know anything about how the ogres scattered across Azeroth. It's never been an important question, but it's certainly something that you can expand on. There was once a question as to how ogre clans even got to Kalimdor, but reinforcing the whole seafaring thing fixes that problem.

One thing I find interesting is that, Warlords of Draenor initially tried to explain (and justify leaving the old model on old ogres) that the ogres we know have been diminished in some way, and in Warlords we were going to see more sophisticated ogres at their height. The thing is, most of the ogres don't really live up to that (and the new model has been used a few times in Legion on ogres that are almost certainly not from the alternate Draenor). In general, I think this was the world designers going off the jokes they were familiar with, while the story team were writing the more erudite ogres like in Lords of War or Mar'gok. However, in the end, I think it works out in the long run for the ogres. Because I think it means you can play off the ogres we know as just the stupider ones, while still introducing smarter ogres to lead them that have been living on Azeroth this whole time, without having to say all the ones in our timeline are irrevocably diminished and incapable of the more interesting levels of culture.

Going off what I said about the original intent of the ogre empire in Warlords, I agree that it could be kinda interesting if they do something like that on Azeroth. Establish that, after Highmaul fell to Cho'gall in our timeline, a handful of the "best" (hopefully including our Tormmok ;P) escaped to Azeroth, built ships, and ended up on an island somewhere. Perhaps a good chunk of the clans we're familiar with are actually colonies in the way the outposts on Draenor were originally intended, all originally coming from this New Gorian Empire based off of an island we haven't been to (this could even explain the Stonemaul being on both continents before World of Warcraft renamed the Eastern Kingdoms branch to the Crushridge). Maybe it's Ogrezonia. It could be kinda funny to find out Ogrezonia isn't actually an island of nothing but ogre women, but an ogre capital city where most the women have gone to, so to people not used to seeing ogre women, they assume the high concentration of ogre women means it's nothing but women living there.

When it comes to expecting them, though, it doesn't really mean much on its own, but I also found the World of Warcraft: Traveler interesting (although certainly far more on the circumstantial end). While ogres mostly feature as joke fodder in the story, we get the first official depiction of a female ogre in the artwork (even if the design isn't something surprising or anything), and several ogres are described with features that haven't appeared in game ever or artwork for quite a few years.

[DeicideUH]

is fine of course, or they could do some interesting things, like if the expansion is rly about south seas, they could do like they did with goblins, a island full of then, and they meet the horde in time of need, so they join then, im rly wanting to see the Ogrezonian island

True, that could be done, but I prefer to build on whatever exists rather than create things out of thin air. The ogres are already there, you just need a reason for them to start getting more involved now (maybe the reason could be as simple as "we were busy building our new city")

[Jokubas]

True, that could be done, but I prefer to build on whatever exists rather than create things out of thin air. The ogres are already there, you just need a reason for them to start getting more involved now (maybe the reason could be as simple as "we were busy building our new city")

Yeah, I'm obviously guilty of it myself, but it seems like it's oft forgotten that the Stonemaul ogres have been on the Horde since Warcraft III, they just haven't been playable. I think I tend to avoid it because their story is pretty boring at the moment, but it wouldn't be that hard to expand on them and make them more interesting, and just pretend that all that depth to them always existed and we just never saw it.

[DeicideUH]

One thing I find interesting is that, Warlords of Draenor initially tried to explain (and justify leaving the old model on old ogres) that the ogres we know have been diminished in some way, and in Warlords we were going to see more sophisticated ogres at their height.

There was an interview (I think before WoD was released) in which someone asked if the Azerothian ogres would get their models updated with the new ones from WoD, and the answer was "no", but they "were going to update the old ogre model" some time after.

Blizzard plans some things years ahead. I don't know if it would be for next expansion, but with their extended team, it's possible. They seem to have been busy updating some old models (yetis, troggs) that have no direct relation to Legion.

A "leak" was bold enough to suggest 3 races (one neutral) + customization + Sub-races. I think it's very far-fetched, but considering WoW's extended team and how Blizzard has pulled off all the new character models for WoD, it's not entirely impossible.

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Yeah, I'm obviously guilty of it myself, but it seems like it's oft forgotten that the Stonemaul ogres have been on the Horde since Warcraft III, they just haven't been playable. I think I tend to avoid it because their story is pretty boring at the moment, but it wouldn't be that hard to expand on them and make them more interesting, and just pretend that all that depth to them always existed and we just never saw it.

Have you flew over the mountains south of Dustwallow Marsh, between the road and the sea?
I fly over that place sometimes, it's amazing how much potential it has to hold a big ogre city. I dream about WoD assets being used there. And, since it is next to the sea, it could even have a port with ogre juggernaults!

(Other places that could hold cities are east of Arathi and between Plaguelands and Hinterlands, but, for ogres, Dustwallow would be perfect. Specially now that both Theramore and Onyxia are gone)

[Jokubas]

I swear I read the diminished thing somewhere, but regardless, I think the real reason they didn't update the old models is that the old ogres wear different kinds of armor because they've been scattered and lost their civilization. It really wouldn't have been a great use of resources at the time to update all of that old armor if you weren't going to use it in the current expansion. The new ogre models are even more "naked" than the old ones though, by default, so doing that armor, or other armor, at some point would be even easier now if they ever had a reason to.

I think Dire Maul is another pretty good place for the Stonemaul. It's not too far from Dustwallow, the Stonemaul got an outpost there in Cataclysm (from which they attacked Cho'gall and his forces in the Horde version of the questing), and the Traveler novel emptied it of the Gordok. It was once a highborne location which might upset the highborne living there that joined the night elves, but Dire Maul as the next capital after Highmaul seems fitting (plus, it's actually already pretty similar to the ogre architecture and even includes an arena).

Have you flew over the mountains south of Dustwallow Marsh, between the road and the sea?
I fly over that place sometimes, it's amazing how much potential it has to hold a big ogre city. I dream about WoD assets being used there. And, since it is next to the sea, it could even have a port with ogre juggernaults!

I've found quite a few little nooks and crannies while doing research for my website. Sometimes I worry that it's going to make me disappointed with whatever we get if we do get it. ;P

For instance, while I don't need capitals for races if it meant getting races we might not otherwise get, I really, really want to see an active and friendly city that looks like this artwork of Goria:
https://wow.gamepedia.com/media/wow....474111a4152a49

[Phunkle]

Man, this thread keeps reminding me that I am probably the only person in existence that counts Vash'ir to his favorite zones of all time.

A real bummer that it is so badly received, because I think they could do a lot of beautiful stuff in an underwater zone with their current technology.

I'd even be okay with some sort of underwater dome that has no water in it and just gives us the surroundings of the deep places of Azeroth while we are exploring stuff like Nyalotha or anything else Lovecraftian.

[zlygork]

Man, this thread keeps reminding me that I am probably the only person in existence that counts Vash'ir to his favorite zones of all time.

A real bummer that it is so badly received, because I think they could do a lot of beautiful stuff in an underwater zone with their current technology.

I'd even be okay with some sort of underwater dome that has no water in it and just gives us the surroundings of the deep places of Azeroth while we are exploring stuff like Nyalotha or anything else Lovecraftian.

You are not alone, and yeah I'd be ok with underwater zones very fully old-school no-flying 2D through shaman magic, just to have an underwater environment without any of the issues that people had with vashj'ir. Then it'll just be another obnoxiously mountainous zone like everything we've gotten since then

[JJShadoe]

Man, this thread keeps reminding me that I am probably the only person in existence that counts Vash'ir to his favorite zones of all time.

A real bummer that it is so badly received, because I think they could do a lot of beautiful stuff in an underwater zone with their current technology.

I'd even be okay with some sort of underwater dome that has no water in it and just gives us the surroundings of the deep places of Azeroth while we are exploring stuff like Nyalotha or anything else Lovecraftian.

You are definitely not alone. I go back to Vashj'ir and zip around on my jellyfish from time to time, just for the sheer pleasure of being there. One of my favorite zones.

[DeicideUH]

Man, this thread keeps reminding me that I am probably the only person in existence that counts Vash'ir to his favorite zones of all time.

A real bummer that it is so badly received, because I think they could do a lot of beautiful stuff in an underwater zone with their current technology.

I'd even be okay with some sort of underwater dome that has no water in it and just gives us the surroundings of the deep places of Azeroth while we are exploring stuff like Nyalotha or anything else Lovecraftian.

Vashj'ir real problem was that it was too long. It's storyline is soooooooo long, full of twists and developments, it felt like it never ended. And, when you finally finished it, it was with us defeated and a big unsatisfying cliffhanger.

It should have been shorter, the island should be bigger, and the underwater parts somewhat toned down.

The Suramar vrykul questline is almost a mini-Vashj'ir (including a new murderous whale shark swimming around), but you don't see people complaining about it.

[Deleted]

Vashj'ir real problem was that it was too long. It's storyline is soooooooo long, full of twists and developments, it felt like it never ended. And, when you finally finished it, it was with us defeated and a big unsatisfying cliffhanger.

It should have been shorter, the island should be bigger, and the underwater parts somewhat toned down.

The Suramar vrykul questline is almost a mini-Vashj'ir (including a new murderous whale shark swimming around), but you don't see people complaining about it.

So basically Vashj'ir but without everything that makes it Vashj'ir?

The point of that zone for me, and its big appeal, was that we took the big plunge into the unknown. Like in many games, movies, books, etc. before WoW, we ended up marooned in the middle of nowhere. Since there was no way back, the only way forward was to move further into the unknown.

We started out in the colourful and awe-inspiring kelp forest. So wonderful and immersive in my opinion. I love how bright and cheerful it is, a little bit suggestive of what is yet to come, but still very inviting. Then we went further. Things started looking a bit dark. Walls disappeared. Distances grew larger. Darkness surrounded us. Ah! Glowing corals. Strange sea creatures! What's this? A remnant of an underwater civilization? Full of mer-folk (naga)! We've got to press on, go deeper. At this point, it's basically like being in outer space; a strange and completely alien world opens up before us, with huge beasts of the unknown, shadowy figures, streams full of bizarre life-forms, and so on.

I freaking love everything about it. It's a journey of discovery, and of exploration. WoW needs more of that. You could definitely design forest zones, dungeons, etc. in a similar way. That forest in Draenor's Nagrand, right before the ogre raid instance, had a lot of potential if only it had been much bigger.

[Chemical Ellis]

I personally would love another Vashj'ir. Actually, considering Cata vs Legion quest design, I think underwater could actually work a lot better as an endgame zone (lolnazjatarlol?)

The reason I brought up a new ogre tribe, as opposed to the ones that are already in the Horde - partially for the sake of new storytelling opportunities, partially to combat stigma. There are a lot of ogre detractors, a lot of folks who think ogres are uniformly dumb, naked neanderthals, and thus dislike the idea of playable ogres. Lore has plenty examples of ogres that buck this trend - but not in the Stonemaul Tribe. There are two factors that I think are extremely important in the success of ogres as a playable race~

1. How cool the fantasy of 'being' an ogre is
2. How sexy female ogres are

The first - being dumb and fat isn't very cool. Being a giant, savage master of dark arts is pretty cool. The former is the Tharg fantasy. The latter is the Cho'Gall fantasy. Living under a rock in a swamp isn't very cool. Living at the height of a world-spanning empire of warriors and scholars is pretty cool. The former is the Stonemaul fantasy. The latter is the Gorian fantasy. I mention Zul'Dare and Crestfall because they were both major Alliance fortresses that became Horde outposts in the 2nd War, and could seed the germ of a more sophisticated ogre.

The second - probably seems facetious. It's not. Pretty humanoid races always do better in WoW. Humans, Blood Elves, and Night Elves are the most played. The people who really want ogres are going to play an ogre - a big, savage ogre male is exactly what they want. For everyone else - they want something they don't mind looking at on screen, either something suitable as an extension of their idealized, rpg persona, or something nice to watch. Ogre females absolutely have the potential to be sexy. By playing up certain features in existing ogres - wide hips, thick lips, dark eyeshadow - and downplaying things like the flared nose or heavy brow, I think we could see a voluptuous, soft featured ogress that would appeal to both those wanting a sexy avatar, and those who see their toons as idealized versions of themselves (especially when contrasted against the stick-thin blood elf female).

[Paula Deen]

lmao. Its been like 4 fucking years. Why are we still talking about Ogres?