[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Granyala]

... We are just talking in circles now since you won't even acknowledge the problems/downsides/cons the current system has.

We are talking in circles because you never move on from that point.
We all know the current system can cause frustration.

You brought the topic up in the first place. It would be on you to start saying "Okay, imho the current system doesn't work, here is how you could theoretically make it better. What do you think?"

But apart from "stop shackling people to each other in order for the group to be successful" you haven't come up with anything meaningful and started arguing about a very peculiar definition of "team play" where each others contributions are independent and non related to each other that apparently only exists in your head.

Answer me this: How do you provide challenging "team based" content (say Heroic raid level) for larger groups while completely decoupling each individuals performance from the groups success?

Tank goes in and distracts the dude while everyone runs past him and loots his chest while he isn't looking?
If so, how would failure look like?
Why would people even group up in such an environment?
If it is hard to do alone (yet possible) how would you see to it that it wouldn't get faceroll easy when 5+ people go in?
How would you combat the scenario I described earlier (which you ofc completely ignored, as usual) where 2 players go in to make stuff easier, yet both die and then flame each other?

SPECIFICS on which we could start a discussion about possible "alternate designs".

[SodiumChloride]

We are talking in circles because you never move on from that point.
We all know the current system can cause frustration.

You brought the topic up in the first place. It would be on you to start saying "Okay, imho the current system doesn't work, here is how you could theoretically make it better. What do you think?"

But apart from "stop shackling people to each other in order for the group to be successful" you haven't come up with anything meaningful and started arguing about a very peculiar definition of "team play" where each others contributions are independent and non related to each other that apparently only exists in your head.

Answer me this: How do you provide challenging "team based" content (say Heroic raid level) for larger groups while completely decoupling each individuals performance from the groups success?

Tank goes in and distracts the dude while everyone runs past him and loots his chest while he isn't looking?
If so, how would failure look like?
Why would people even group up in such an environment?
If it is hard to do alone (yet possible) how would you see to it that it wouldn't get faceroll easy when 5+ people go in?
How would you combat the scenario I described earlier (which you ofc completely ignored, as usual) where 2 players go in to make stuff easier, yet both die and then flame each other?

SPECIFICS on which we could start a discussion about possible "alternate designs".

You are assuming that the individualized objectives will be easy.

Just because the objectives are doable solo, doesn't mean it's easy - Bloodborne's fights are all difficult; it can be long or just plain hard.

How many people you invite/beg to help you ... that's up to you. Loot can be split so there is a downside to having 5+ people.

Don't see why you would flame someone you just begged for assistance from ... >.> Remember, they don't owe you shit.

[Granyala]

1) People don't beg for assistance.
People always go the past of least resistance. If your content would be easier with 5 people, they will deem 5 people mandatory and go in with 5 people.
The usual group dynamics will occur if the run doesn't go as smoothly and easily as expected.
Esp if you make them grind said content repeatedly in MMO fashion and the "just want to get it done ASAP" mindset sets in.

2) In a game with very diverse classes as WoW, you cannot make stuff equally challenging for each spec. The balancing alone would be a nightmare. Mythic or even heroic level difficulty is out almost automatically. Classes are simply too different.
See Proving grounds. Such a simple concept, no? Yet Blizzard fails HORRIBLY at balancing it.

3) If you punish grouping by lowering the loot, people will refuse to group up. You'll end up with a tiny hardcore playerbase that solos your encounter. No one likes to feel punished for grouping up.

Yes I am sure such an approach works for Bloodborne, which is a game directed at rather skillful/hardcore gamers.
Stuff like that wouldn't fly in any MMO for reasons stated above + probably a myriad of others I can't think of off the top of my head.

[SodiumChloride]

1) People don't beg for assistance.
People always go the past of least resistance. If your content would be easier with 5 people, they will deem 5 people mandatory and go in with 5 people.
The usual group dynamics will occur if the run doesn't go as smoothly and easily as expected.
Esp if you make them grind said content repeatedly in MMO fashion and the "just want to get it done ASAP" mindset sets in.

Wait what?

Actually the path of least resistance, from experience, is to just solo it - getting a group together is a PITA for most people. After failing a few times, people normally start asking for help - as inconvenient as it is, it's better than making no progress.

2) In a game with very diverse classes as WoW, you cannot make stuff equally challenging for each spec. The balancing alone would be a nightmare. Mythic or even heroic level difficulty is out almost automatically. Classes are simply too different.
See Proving grounds. Such a simple concept, no? Yet Blizzard fails HORRIBLY at balancing it.

Well, that's a class design problem ... you design the class around the content ... you will need to give the necessary tools to the classes.

3) If you punish grouping by lowering the loot, people will refuse to group up. You'll end up with a tiny hardcore playerbase that solos your encounter. No one likes to feel punished for grouping up.

Soloing is fine and even the hardcore will sometime opt for getting help.

Yes I am sure such an approach works for Bloodborne, which is a game directed at rather skillful/hardcore gamers.

Heh. You speak as if the raiding content (as it's currently design isn't hardcore ...).

Bloodborne is hardcore hardcore because there is literally no non-challenging content. Even wandering trash will kill you if you don't know what you are doing.[1]

MMOs are considered non-hardcore because leveling is dead easy and nearly foolproof. World mobs are generally harmless. Difficulty is a continuum. MMOs have a range of content varying in difficulty.

[1] Want to see a noob struggle with a Souls-type game (of which Bloodborne is one of),

[Granyala]

Actually the path of least resistance, from experience, is to just solo it - getting a group together is a PITA for most people. After failing a few times, people normally start asking for help - as inconvenient as it is, it's better than making no progress.

Well, that's a class design problem ... you design the class around the content ... you will need to give the necessary tools to the classes.

Soloing is fine and even the hardcore will sometime opt for getting help.

1) Depends on the systems really. Manually looking for a group via LFD chat? Yeah I give you that.
Relying on some automated tool doing the "legwork" for you while you enjoy some other aspect of the game until it goes "NA na naaaaaa!11!11" at a deafening volume? Not so much.
Most people would try to solo once or twice, realize that they didn't stand a chance and then either search for groups to drag their asses through or when they fail / get booted too often quit the game.

2) No it's not a class design problem. MMOs aren't designed to be soloable, the whole POINT of the game is to work with others. Guild Wars II tried something more "homogenized" w/o the Trinity (Tank/DPS/Heal) and look what a shitty boring zergfest that PvE was on release (no clue how it is now).

3) Soloing is not fine. Not if it comes at the cost of total class homogenization (which would be necessary for challenging, yet fair content to exist). MMOs classes are designed to work together, to have necessary synergies, strengths and weaknesses. WoW for example is way more homogenized than it should be already, thanks to 10m HC raiding and Arena.

4) Didn't watch your YT vid, but I did see a bit of Bloodborne when my friend streamed it. Suffice it to say that it would not be a game for me. I have neither the patience nor the will to deal with such split second reaction or instagib stuff. Me too old for this. :<

[SodiumChloride]

1) Depends on the systems really. Manually looking for a group via LFD chat? Yeah I give you that.
Relying on some automated tool doing the "legwork" for you while you enjoy some other aspect of the game until it goes "NA na naaaaaa!11!11" at a deafening volume? Not so much.
Most people would try to solo once or twice, realize that they didn't stand a chance and then either search for groups to drag their asses through or when they fail / get booted too often quit the game.

2) No it's not a class design problem. MMOs aren't designed to be soloable, the whole POINT of the game is to work with others. Guild Wars II tried something more "homogenized" w/o the Trinity (Tank/DPS/Heal) and look what a shitty boring zergfest that PvE was on release (no clue how it is now).

3) Soloing is not fine. Not if it comes at the cost of total class homogenization (which would be necessary for challenging, yet fair content to exist). MMOs classes are designed to work together, to have necessary synergies, strengths and weaknesses. WoW for example is way more homogenized than it should be already, thanks to 10m HC raiding and Arena.

4) Didn't watch your YT vid, but I did see a bit of Bloodborne when my friend streamed it. Suffice it to say that it would not be a game for me. I have neither the patience nor the will to deal with such split second reaction or instagib stuff. Me too old for this. :<

I'm all for working together. But I rather not have the die together aspect - IMHO the source of a great amount of toxicity.

I'm suppose I differ from you on the soloing aspect, personally I don't see it as a big deal - as long as others can join in to give you a hand; i.e. we play together.

In summary, players should be able to impact each other in positive ways as much as possible (assist another player in clearing his objective) and impact other players in negative ways as little as possible (fucking up and slowing down another player's progress).

[Granyala]

I'm all for working together. But I rather not have the die together aspect - IMHO the source of a great amount of toxicity

Well.. if you want difficult content, you must accept the need to fail.
As soon as the content is somewhat of a group effort, the usual suspects of nerdrage apply.

I personally agree with your premise in general and I am VERY happy that Blizzard finally moves away from the archaic mob tagging / resource competition in Legion. I want to be HAPPY when I see other players and not think "fuck, now I better pull twice as hard or this quest will take forever if I have to wait for respawn".

However, I also like that classes are vastly different. Making them all super similar would make rerolling another character pointless and eliminate most MMOs main source of "keeping the player busy somehow till new patch drops".

I esp enjoy the class system in FF, where I can switch between vastly different roles. Going from Whitemage to Darkknight to Blackmage on the same character I deeply care about and am connected to really is a treat, which your system would sacrifice for the sake of soloability™.

[SodiumChloride]

Well.. if you want difficult content, you must accept the need to fail.

Of course. But where the blame is perceived to lie ... IMHO ideally the player should blame himself and no one else.

[Granyala]

Of course. But where the blame is perceived to lie ... IMHO ideally the player should blame himself and no one else.

But that is not what would happen in your system.

If person A groups up with Person B because they both can't do the encounter individually, if Player B dies and Player A doesn't defeat the encounter, player A will not see it as "I was too bad". He will see it as "the dude I recruited sucks, this doesn't work, need to recruit a better dude".

As I said: human nature. Most, if not all of us look for faults to lie with others first and foremost.

[unholytestament]

So I just finished the main3.0 storyline.

I REALLY like the story in this game.

[Granyala]

Heh that reminds me to continue my MSQ from the last patch... I stopped once I got to the antitower. :X

[SodiumChloride]

But that is not what would happen in your system.

If person A groups up with Person B because they both can't do the encounter individually, if Player B dies and Player A doesn't defeat the encounter, player A will not see it as "I was too bad". He will see it as "the dude I recruited sucks, this doesn't work, need to recruit a better dude".

As I said: human nature. Most, if not all of us look for faults to lie with others first and foremost.

E.g.

You are a fairly fit dude.
You are moving.
You ran into trouble with an old solid wood cabinet.
You got the nearest friend over to help.

a)Together you move it and share a beer in the evening.

OR

b)Together you fail to move it.

b.1)You shrug and start thinking of an alternate solution.

OR

b.2)You flip out. Question why your friend isn't stronger. That if he was as strong as you, the cabinet would have been moved no problem. Call him a loser and tell him to get out.

This is the ideal kind of "team based" gameplay. Your team member failing you does not result in nerdrage or even annoyance.

"b.1)" is the outcome 99% of the time. Your friend is doing you a favor. He is not obligated to help you. You are not entitled to his help.

"b.2)" almost never happens unless you are a psychopath ... and you won't have a friend after that.

To some extend it's more a matter of "social engineering" than game mechanics.

[Granyala]

"b.1)" is the outcome 99% of the time. Your friend is doing you a favor. He is not obligated to help you. You are not entitled to his help.

a) The dude I recruit is not my friend. It's some faceless random I would never see again, completely replaceable at my whim and I don't give 2 fucks about him.
b) He is as much obliged to help me as I am obliged to help him if we want to down the boss and get the reward, which in this context is all that counts.

Not how I personally would approach this situation, mind you. I always try to see the actual player behind the random, even if he fucks up. But a lot of online gamers don't. You either perform or you get replaced.

[Sesshomaru]

So I just finished the main3.0 storyline.

I REALLY like the story in this game.

I can't wait for it to continue to evolve; as we're more than likely to get Estinien Wyrmblood (/Nidhogg) trial or something in the liking later on. We still also have 2 more of the Warring Triad left, not sure if we'll be getting all before the end or if we're receiving the last one as the--- Warring Triad is a story on it's own, the triad stuff spans over a certain time, which means we'll get it (said spoiler) right before or at the end of HW. Chances are high for said trial to be at the near end of the expansion, but who knows.

I just want to see Aymeric in more action, alongside Elidibus (and Warrior of Darkness/Urianger).

Off topic: I want Lahabrea back. It's not the same without his manly (Char Aznable) voice. (Or Akai Shuichi for that matter)

JP Audio pack for the win!

[Cthulhu 2020]

I think somewhat between 3-4M. Not really a big deal, considering a single treasure map sells for 70K. Even casuals can make that money by the time they have the 80 objects.

To me the 80 objects are the problem. I don't enjoy any of the ways of getting them.
So to force myself through that just for some ugly stat stick would be nonsensical.

Getting those objects involves just... playing the game. Unless your only preferred method of playing the game is sitting in town doing nothing, then you are able to get them slowly. Most of my friends who just played casually, never did beast tribes, didn't grind anything, have their 80 objects and 210 relic now just from turning in law/poetics. At this point, it takes not playing the game period to not get the 210 relic.

[TirielWoW]

So I just finished the main3.0 storyline.

I REALLY like the story in this game.

It's great, ain't it?

[Deleted]

I think somewhat between 3-4M. Not really a big deal, considering a single treasure map sells for 70K. Even casuals can make that money by the time they have the 80 objects.

To me the 80 objects are the problem. I don't enjoy any of the ways of getting them.
So to force myself through that just for some ugly stat stick would be nonsensical.

- - - Updated - - -


No, you are not. You are raging on about the perceived "problems" of the current iteration and that's that.

I have not seen anything interesting from you on the last few pages, regarding the topic at all and the few posts that try to shed light on some of your arguments/hinted at propositions get ignored.

When cornered you evade and hide behind Latin phrases, thinking it makes you somehow "look smart".
Here's a hint: using a dead language doesn't make you look smart. Even if we don't understand the sentence right away, we all know how to use google.
No one is impressed.

Those any ways of getting them are pretty much 90% of the game. It really takes not playing the game at all or just "log in do expert log out" to not have all 80.
I m not even trying and I m about to finish a 2nd relic and get my DRK relic to 230.

[TirielWoW]

Heh that reminds me to continue my MSQ from the last patch... I stopped once I got to the antitower. :X

Antitower is fun.

[Granyala]

It really takes not playing the game at all or just "log in do expert log out" to not have all 80.

Pretty much what I am currently doing, because I am busy doing other stuff and the esos so far have been used to gear DRK & BLM.

Now that these are equipped, I suppose I could redirect the surplus of esoterics towards unidentified objects.

Still doesn't solve the problem of getting poetics, because I do no longer do lv 50 content.

- - - Updated - - -

Antitower is fun.

As a WHM I found both new experts rather disappointing to be honest. Not enough to heal. Doing DPS 80%+ of the time is boring.
Probably one of the main reasons my DRK gets so much action lately.

[SodiumChloride]

a) The dude I recruit is not my friend. It's some faceless random I would never see again, completely replaceable at my whim and I don't give 2 fucks about him.
b) He is as much obliged to help me as I am obliged to help him if we want to down the boss and get the reward, which in this context is all that counts.

Not how I personally would approach this situation, mind you. I always try to see the actual player behind the random, even if he fucks up. But a lot of online gamers don't. You either perform or you get replaced.

Replace friend with helpful guy on the street.

Edit: It's almost like you don't want to "get it". Whatever man.