Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Le Conceptuel]

Best sarcastic summary of Shadowlands so far.

Hardly so. It's a summary and it's quite sarcastic, but I don't think it's the best. I've hard far better.

[Raetary]

Them being angry at the Alliance feels very out of character though. Unless of course we are to assume that the rest of the Alliance have started peaceful drum circles in Stormwind and the Nelves are the only ones who still don't trust the Horde.

I disagree, them being angry at the alliance for making a truce with the faction that caused them much suffering is a very natural development.
What wouldn't make sense if there was no conflict or anger, and it was all shoved under the rug despite the severity of the initial conflict.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Thats not a dividing factor like at all. There's no point on being hostile to the other faction right now other then "What if" which is flimsy at best.





No thanks.

The horde committed genocide and there leaders did nothing to oppose sylvanas who gave the order until she came for them, the
Lack of accountability and the Alliance washing there hands of it by signing a truce is a huge reason for a divide.

[Celement]

This honestly sounds like a good reset for Nelves to be a little more like how they were in Classic and WC3. They aren't peaceniks anymore, and even if they open up a neutral city there will definitely be some hostilities.

Doubtful... blizzard destroys any cultural differences any race has that isn't simply aesthetic. Every thing becomes lawful good human eventually.

Even the forsaken got turned into it... if a player can play a race its gonna become bland.

[Berkilak]

Mixed him up with Vereesa's kid, who are actually two kids, oops. I do wonder who these "important kids" might be besides Dagran, the twins, and Liadrin's daughter/Children's Week girl (who already cameo'd as a young adult at the end of SL pre-timeskip). Thrall's kids seem too young still.

Orc kids mature fast.

And Garrosh and Zaela were also paired up for Cataclysm...

Incoming secret Hellscream love child!

[BaumanKing]

Why the hell was Alleria invited? Hadn't Lor'themar himself declared her a traitor and banished her from Quel'Thalas?

[Lahis]

jfc do people really think they are misunderstood noble rebels? This is the Forsworn all over again...

Fornsworn turned out to have a point and changed Kyrian society.

[Cheezits]

Why the hell was Alleria invited? Hadn't Lor'themar himself declared her a traitor and banished her from Quel'Thalas?

Wife of the current Alliance leader during tentative peacetime. Lor'themar knows politics.

[Nymrohd]

I disagree, them being angry at the alliance for making a truce with the faction that caused them much suffering is a very natural development.
What wouldn't make sense if there was no conflict or anger, and it was all shoved under the rug despite the severity of the initial conflict.

Anduin eulogized the Butcher of Ashenvale. Why would they NOT be pissed really?

[Le Conceptuel]

And that's what i mean when i say people don't actually know the story. Arthas acted purely out of his own volition and to his own benefit. Of the three Lich Kings, none did what Zovaal wanted them to. Nothing about Arthas' own story was changed, only background given as to why the other parties acted to get him into that position and what they hoped to gain from it.

Yes, Arthas still acted out of his own volition, but the purpose and nature of the Scourge was intrinsically changed. To alter something's background can be a very profound alteration because it entirely and essentially changes the nature of the subject. In changing the Scourge's background from a tool of the Legion invasion to tools of Zovaal, their role was convoluted. Furthermore, Zovaal was definitely exercising control over the Scourge and does take retroactive responsibility for at least some of their actions—we can prove this with the Forge of Souls. At the very least, the Cult of the Damned was under his control, if not other members of the Scourge.

The change to the Dreadlords was a good one, but even then it inexorably links an iconic element of Warcraft lore to the ridiculous story of Shadowlands and the single most banal villain in its history. Retroactively connecting iconic story elements to newly-introduced villains solely for the purpose of hyping them up reduces their fundamental capacity to be enjoyed on their own and as they were. Even if the story of the Scourge remained totally unaltered, an iconic piece of lore is now unable to be taken in isolation from an extraordinarily uninteresting villain, his ridiculous plan, and a mind-numbingly idiotic plot.

Furthermore, you still haven't acknowledged the other things I brought up—how the Titans were cheapened in an attempt to recapture their mystique, for instance, or how the pivotal question of the afterlife was so haphazardly handled and revealed, reduced to another set of leveling zones with semi-memorable gimmicks at best, or how the aforementioned afterlife only substantially changed the worldview of two characters, and even then only owing to extenuating circumstances as opposed to the extraordinary act of exploring the afterlife prior to death in itself.

Kel'Thuzad's personality as you described it is entirely inaccurate to his portrayal in Warcraft III up through WotLK. Originally, Kel'Thuzad seemed to possess a genuine sense of loyalty to the Scourge—he was definitely in it for the power, but he was never unwilling to trust Ner'Zhul nor willing to betray Arthas. In the former instance, he was willing to die on Ner'Zhul's behalf, trusting his assurance that it was all according to plan. In the latter instance, there were numerous instances where it could have behooved him to betray Arthas, but he never did. Now, as for his service to Zovaal, Blizzard helpfully explains outside of the narrative that he was actually recruited by Sire Denathrius, which does make things significantly less nonsensical than "ahktually he was serving Zovaal all along", but it nevertheless doesn't feel suitable for the character to accept his former master's reduction to a fuel source nor to work to architect the ultimate reshaping of reality. Even in the instance that we assume Kel'Thuzad really only ever wanted power and possessed no actual loyalty to his masters, why would he accept the idea of eternally being reduced to a subject of someone like Zovaal, who would ultimately deprive him of any meaningful power?

Either way, assuming that nobody criticizing something you liked applied bare scrutiny in doing so is ridiculous and betrays that you're not arguing in good faith.

[Nymrohd]

Fornsworn turned out to have a point and changed Kyrian society.

Their point sucked and I will die on that hill. You are not REQUIRED to become an Ascended. You can just hang out (or move to another afterlife). It is important for a judge to be impartial and you cannot be impartial if you carry the bias of your past life. The very fall of Uther is proof that the original ways of the Kyrian are right; even a righteous person cannot be expected to properly judge their abuser. This is about western ideology idolizing individualism as a supreme virtue that has to take precedence. I'll quote the Tao "The sage is not humane. He regards all people as straw dogs."

[Izalla]

Gameplay trailer! https://youtu.be/dT36HGP5V0Q

Oh yay!! This is what I was expecting at the announcement and I was disappointed they didn't do one back then. I didn't expect one at all after that so I am very happily surprised.

[Cheezits]

Their point sucked and I will die on that hill. You are not REQUIRED to become an Ascended. You can just hang out (or move to another afterlife). It is important for a judge to be impartial and you cannot be impartial if you carry the bias of your past life. The very fall of Uther is proof that the original ways of the Kyrian are right; even a righteous person cannot be expected to properly judge their abuser. This is about western ideology idolizing individualism as a supreme virtue that has to take precedence. I'll quote the Tao "The sage is not humane. He regards all people as straw dogs."

Western game, western fans, the west wins.

See: everyone screaming about how "icky" it is that the Dragonkin were created by the aspects and have a servant-type role, and the Order in the water thing. Anything remotely against modern western individualism means that Blizz the creators are actually evil/promoting fascism etc.

I would've loved if Kyrestia, despite being an idiot, hammered the Forsworn into a pulp and told the audience "no, your modern real world ideals do not belong here", but the tantrums would've been INSANE.

[Nymrohd]

Western game, western fans, the west wins.

See: everyone screaming about how "icky" it is that the Dragonkin were created by the aspects and have a servant-type role, and the Order in the water thing. Anything remotely against modern western individualism means that Blizz the creators are actually evil/promoting fascism etc.

I would've loved if Kyrestia, despite being an idiot, hammered the Forsworn into a pulp and told the audience "no, your modern real world ideals do not belong here", but the tantrums would've been INSANE.

Someone needs to tell these kids they are not that special.

[Le Conceptuel]

I would've loved if Kyrestia, despite being an idiot, hammered the Forsworn into a pulp and told the audience "no, your modern real world ideals do not belong here", but the tantrums would've been INSANE.

I think the afterlives should've been competently-designed and managed to begin with. Ideally, the message of the expansion could have been "sometimes, you aren't right, and you can't just rail the design of the universe according to your tiny little human brain because you don't realize what happens when things aren't designed the way they are." It's a common argument in theology and it would've been very fun and interesting to explore—Sylvanas and the Jailer are already villains, so they should've been framed accordingly in trying to reshape the afterlives. Sylvanas, rather than a sad, lost person who legitimately had a point, should have been portrayed as a narcissistic lunatic who is so up her own ass with self-aggrandizement and nihilistic frustration that she fails to realize that any effort made to reshape the universe according to the whims of limited flesh brains invariably fall flat.

In that connection, it also would've required less work on Sylvanas' character—just continue the plotline that already existed. Sylvie doesn't want to go to hell, is absolutely driven loony when she realizes that she didn't go there because she was Undead but because she was a terrible person, and then she throws a giant cosmic tantrum and tries to rewrite reality itself instead of face that she is a terrible person and the omniscient judgment of superior powers is probably not flawed.

[Sondrelk]

Why the hell was Alleria invited? Hadn't Lor'themar himself declared her a traitor and banished her from Quel'Thalas?

They are not in Quel'thalas though. They are in Suramar. Also, would probably be a horrible political move.

[Zharikov]

Wife of the current Alliance leader during tentative peacetime. Lor'themar knows politics.

Pretty much this. Even if the First Lady is an exile from your country, you don't invite the President and not her.

Though I will point out, she wasn't banished for treachery. Lor'themar probably /considers/ her one, and was disappointed that she only came to Silvermoon because Anduin sent her to try to recruit the Sin'dorei again, and tells her to go back to Stormwind.

She was banished because of national security and safety reasons.

She is, effectively, void-radioactive. A walking typhoid mary that, like most of the void elves, would put all of Silvermoon and Azeroth at risk if they were allowed back into Quel'thalas, their very presence a danger to the Sunwell.

If the wedding was in Quel'thalas, she probably /wouldn't/ have been invited. In fact, safety of the Sunwell was probably a consideration for why they had the wedding in Suramar - no big prize there to claim.

If the Sunwell is destroyed or sacrificed in the future, there's the possibility Alleria could be allowed to return - but so long as she's a vessel for the void and Silvermoon powered by a big Light Well, it's fairly impossible to let her safely return.

[Cheezits]

Sylvanas, rather than a sad, lost person who legitimately had a point, should have been portrayed as a narcissistic lunatic who is so up her own ass with self-aggrandizement and nihilistic frustration that she fails to realize that any effort made to reshape the universe according to the whims of limited flesh brains invariably fall flat.

That was actually what I thought was going to happen, though they went with a route that pleases more people (keep her alive, but in eternal punishment/penance). I was fully expecting her fate to be getting blown up into smitheroons by the Jailer before he goes into Zereth Mortis, and realizing at the very last second he played her.

That would've been a really good way to get people to like Zovaal, come to think of it. Maybe that was the original plan. Have him go ham on her and give her a torturous death. Could even use chains like Hellraiser.

[Nymrohd]

That was actually what I thought was going to happen, though they went with a route that pleases more people (keep her alive, but in eternal punishment/penance). I was fully expecting her fate to be getting blown up into smitheroons by the Jailer before he goes into Zereth Mortis, and realizing at the very last second he played her.

That would've been a really good way to get people to like Zovaal, come to think of it. Maybe that was the original plan. Have him go ham on her and give her a torturous death. Could even use chains like Hellraiser.

Eternal? You know she'll be back in 2-3 expansions at most.

[Cheezits]

Eternal? You know she'll be back in 2-3 expansions at most.

Eternal in quotes I forgot to add. Though I don't think she'll ever return to Azeroth, she'll just appear when we get all the remaining good guys for the final battle. She's got universes of souls to clean out.