Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Aeluron Lightsong]

The Titans seem to want her stable. Not chaotic or anything explosive(Or rather the Keepers based on loving the Titans). Also I hope Odyn becomes relevant if we keep delving into Titan lore or history.

[Cheezits]

The Uldaman books revealing Uldoros/Tyrhold's purpose of turning Azeroth energy into Order implies that she wasn't a "Titan" to begin with and they may have made her one. The Primalists may just want her to "natural" without any other magic going into her.

Titans are World Souls, but not all World Souls are Titans it seems. Or at least not Order Titans. There was an interesting theory on twitter that says that's why Argus went to the Shadowlands: he was so infused with Death (either on purpose or secretly) that he truly was a death creature, and so he went to that plane on his death.

So a world soul could just be a rare sentient being that is super susceptible to Magic and can be turned into another Pantheon Titan, Void Lord, Eternal One, etc.

Actually.... maybe this is why the Eternal Ones are beatable by adventurers and aren't as powerful as Titans. Because they are created by the First Ones and are not natural world souls like the Titans.

[loras]

The Uldaman books revealing Uldoros/Tyrhold's purpose of turning Azeroth energy into Order implies that she wasn't a "Titan" to begin with and they may have made her one. The Primalists may just want her to "natural" without any other magic going into her.

Titans are World Souls, but not all World Souls are Titans it seems. Or at least not Order Titans. There was an interesting theory on twitter that says that's why Argus went to the Shadowlands: he was so infused with Death (either on purpose or secretly) that he truly was a death creature.

So a world soul could just be a rare sentient being that is super susceptible to Magic and can be turned into another Titan, Void Lord etc.

There is also the point that titans are not like i.e. the eternal ones in that they are not made, but born.
And that even the ones on the pantheon are not uniform in their powers' nature; some tend towards the elements, some to life, one "fell" to chaos and argus was indeed turned to death. Only two of them align with order.

Perhaps there is more to the relation between the keepers and the titans, in that the keepers could be more order inclined than their creators as their creators could have either been influenced by actual order creatures to create creatures mire orderly than themselves, or that the titans deemed "order" to be the most suitable power to realise their designs.

Practically that would mean that the keepers are order's old god equivalent, or something close to it anyhow as they also involve titanic power in their creation.

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The Uldaman books revealing Uldoros/Tyrhold's purpose of turning Azeroth energy into Order implies that she wasn't a "Titan" to begin with and they may have made her one. The Primalists may just want her to "natural" without any other magic going into her.

Titans are World Souls, but not all World Souls are Titans it seems. Or at least not Order Titans. There was an interesting theory on twitter that says that's why Argus went to the Shadowlands: he was so infused with Death (either on purpose or secretly) that he truly was a death creature, and so he went to that plane on his death.

So a world soul could just be a rare sentient being that is super susceptible to Magic and can be turned into another Pantheon Titan, Void Lord, Eternal One, etc.

Actually.... maybe this is why the Eternal Ones are beatable by adventurers and aren't as powerful as Titans. Because they are created by the First Ones and are not natural world souls like the Titans.

Keep in mind that Sargeras illustrates that they can turn even after inception.
So perhaps titans are just on a whole different level, and the ones we know of just happen to have been convinced most by order, so far.

[Cheezits]

Yeah I think there's a case to be made that the First Ones are the true Order pantheon and they may have groomed the Titans to be Order creatures as well, even though they aren't inherently of Order. After all, Argus looks like them even though he didn't get the Uldorus treatment/fed Arcane.

[Le Conceptuel]

Sabellian is just an another Sylvanas Loyalist scenario.

I hope not. Sabellian seems more trustworthy and intelligent, as well as responsible. Wrathion isn't a very good choice for a leader on account of his immaturity and vanity.

[Gurahk]

I know they won't, but I reaally hope they don't make Wrathion the aspect. The kid needs to be humbled.

[Revamp Man]

It is ofc entirely possible that after being freed, the Incarnates will find a way to get more power in patch content.

Like maybe the same source of corruption that causes galakrond

[Makabreska]

Like maybe the same source of corruption that causes galakrond

I am still 100% convinced Galak will be back.

[Sondrelk]

I am still 100% convinced Galak will be back.

Given time travel is a core theme with the Bronze Dragonflight i imagine it's inevitable.

[Nebron]

Wrathion leader, Ebyssian as advisor and running all the boring everyday stuff behind the scenes seems ideal to me from a practical PoV.

Yeah, that could definitely work

[Le Conceptuel]

Yeah I think there's a case to be made that the First Ones are the true Order pantheon and they may have groomed the Titans to be Order creatures as well, even though they aren't inherently of Order. After all, Argus looks like them even though he didn't get the Uldorus treatment/fed Arcane.

I wouldn't be a fan of the First Ones being the "real" pantheon of Order simply on account of the fact that such a change would effectively confirm many people's suspicions that the First Ones are just supposed to be a "one-up" on the Titans.

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Maybe they will share the burden? That could ease Wrathion's fear of falling to the whispers alone too.

Sabellian simply has the much more impressive achievement list, as far as the black dragonflight is concerned; standing against the dark alone, rebuilding, biding and surviving where few else could.
Meanwhile Wrathion was given much and more and also did various impressive things, but he kinda also almost ended the world with his rash stupidity.

Keep in mind they did that for That other powerful position as well, after various holders of the title fell to corruption. The warchief is no more due to its riskiness, maybe the ones directly responsible for the domain in which the old gods lie should not rule alone either.

I did consider that. There seems to be a trend of "two heads are better than one" lately, what with the revocation of the Warchief title in the Horde, so I figure that lends credence to this concept. It feels like they're probably going to do some kind of compromise since those are such a big deal lately, so it's possible. That, or they both decide to give the title to Ebyssian, but that seems highly unlikely given how arrogant both Wrathion and Sabellian are (then again, these writers aren't the sort to keep characters consistent).

[Alanar]

I hope not. Sabellian seems more trustworthy and intelligent, as well as responsible. Wrathion isn't a very good choice for a leader on account of his immaturity and vanity.

Which will be the theme moving forward. Idk its hard to not see it.. He will grow and eventually be " mature " enough to become the aspect. I agree sabillian seems to much like a loyalist scenario. Kinda giving you a taste, but not actually something you choose, just to give you the impression, but will lead to wrathion stepping up in the end. To me they just seem to fill in the black dragon roster, cus its been quite empty for a while.

Having it be an actuall community choice would be cool, but this is just part of the story they try to tell is my guess.

[Nymrohd]

I hope not. Sabellian seems more trustworthy and intelligent, as well as responsible. Wrathion isn't a very good choice for a leader on account of his immaturity and vanity.

The main function of an aspect though is not to be a leader of their flight. That seems secondary. Their function is to defend Azeroth and to complete their individual oaths.

[Le Conceptuel]

The main faction of an aspect though is not to be a leader of their flight. That seems secondary. Their faction is to defend Azeroth and to complete their individual oaths.

Hrm, that's fair. Although this is something of a stupid suggestion, perhaps Wrathion would make a better Aspect of Earth and Sabellian a better de-facto leader of the Black Dragonflight? Would it be possible for Sabellian to actually lead the flight whereas Wrathion actually functions as an Aspect?

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Which will be the theme moving forward. Idk its hard to not see it.. He will grow and eventually be " mature " enough to become the aspect. I agree sabillian seems to much like a loyalist scenario. Kinda giving you a taste, but not actually something you choose, just to give you the impression, but will lead to wrathion stepping up in the end. To me they just seem to fill in the black dragon roster, cus its been quite empty for a while.

Having it be an actuall community choice would be cool, but this is just part of the story they try to tell is my guess.

If it is just an illusion of choice, I do hope that Sabellian still gets some kind of major, long-running role. I wouldn't want him reduced to a villain since he seems like an enjoyable character already.

[Nymrohd]

Hrm, that's fair. Although this is something of a stupid suggestion, perhaps Wrathion would make a better Aspect of Earth and Sabellian a better de-facto leader of the Black Dragonflight? Would it be possible for Sabellian to actually lead the flight whereas Wrathion actually functions as an Aspect?

My response to this would be, why do the dragonflights need leaders? Can they not be led by democracy given their populations are not particularly large and their population is fairly intelligent as is? For that matter, why do the Aspects even need to be Dragons? Is Kalecgos more deserving of being the Aspect of Magic than Khadgar? E.g. Aegwynn certainly was far more deserving than Malygos who abdicated his oath in his grief (while Aegwynn kept fighting even her own child in service of Azeroth). Thrall could be a better Aspect of the Earth than Wrathion. Malfurion has done as much if not more to guard the dream as Ysera has.

The idea of the flights as monarchies can very well be instinct; for all we know the dragons may have pack behaviour. But it could just be the influence of Order. And while I do not thing the influence of Order is universally negative, that doesn't mean it should not be challenged. We talked about this earlier with the Kyrian were we had a narrative about challenging tradition and I'll clarify that I do not at all mind challenging tradition (as long as we have actual arguments on why the challenge is valid that are not deeply rooted in a very narrow and biased view of morality). The flights seem perfect for democracy. Heck considering how the blues chose a new Aspect, the structure for a conclave is there.

[Jaggler]

Hrm, that's fair. Although this is something of a stupid suggestion, perhaps Wrathion would make a better Aspect of Earth and Sabellian a better de-facto leader of the Black Dragonflight? Would it be possible for Sabellian to actually lead the flight whereas Wrathion actually functions as an Aspect?

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If it is just an illusion of choice, I do hope that Sabellian still gets some kind of major, long-running role. I wouldn't want him reduced to a villain since he seems like an enjoyable character already.

It would be kinda weird to take this much time to redeem the black dragonflight, re-introduce Sabellian only to then whack part of the flight with the villain bat again. I think having a trifecta of leading characters with Wrathion as Aspect, Ebyssian as advisor and Sabellian as someone who routinely challenges Wrathion but is ultimately loyal would work pretty well.

[Le Conceptuel]

My response to this would be, why do the dragonflights need leaders? Can they not be led by democracy given their populations are not particularly large and their population is fairly intelligent as is?

My main concern with that is that it offers up some Doylist annoyances—I feel like it would be a continuation of that awkward, preachy tendency that the current writers seem to have. When put up against other changes such as the new Horde Council, it would seem like a democracy wank rather than a necessary change. Taken per se, I actually think that's a perfectly fine idea, but I think that it would contribute in this setting to a trend that's already starting to grate.

I'd also say that their social order doesn't look like it would suit a democracy—their social order is built around a quasi-familial hierarchy according to Draconic broods. Wyrms maintaining massive broods seem to be at the head of their society, so it seems like they naturally defer to a certain inherent hierarchy rather than any kind of social construct. However, as I think about this, this does open up the possibility of Dragons establishing a kind of oligarchical quasi-democracy in which broods organized like noble houses vie for power.

For that matter, why do the Aspects even need to be Dragons? Is Kalecgos more deserving of being the Aspect of Magic than Khadgar? E.g. Aegwynn certainly was far more deserving than Malygos who abdicated his oath in his grief (while Aegwynn kept fighting even her own child in service of Azeroth). Thrall could be a better Aspect of the Earth than Wrathion. Malfurion has done as much if not more to guard the dream as Ysera has.

There are two issues with this—first off, as I've mentioned from time-to-time, there are certain structures that I think are better left untouched in the setting. I feel like it perturbs the setting to effectively reduce the lofty role of the Dragon Aspects to in-name-only humanoid stand-ins. Although plausible from a Watsonian perspective, especially with Thrall setting the precedent for an interim humanoid Aspect in Cataclysm, from a Doylist perspective I think that certain roles should remain fundamentally consistent to avoid turning the setting into even more of a Ship of Theseus than it already is. With all the damage done by introducing the First Ones and the like and all the fundamental structural changes some factions and characters have seen, I feel like we're already on that path and it's best not to expedite the eventual transformation of the setting into something that is effectively only Warcraft in name only.

The idea of the flights as monarchies can very well be instinct; for all we know the dragons may have pack behaviour. But it could just be the influence of Order. And while I do not thing the influence of Order is universally negative, that doesn't mean it should not be challenged. We talked about this earlier with the Kyrian were we had a narrative about challenging tradition and I'll clarify that I do not at all mind challenging tradition (as long as we have actual arguments on why the challenge is valid that are not deeply rooted in a very narrow and biased view of morality). The flights seem perfect for democracy. Heck considering how the blues chose a new Aspect, the structure for a conclave is there.

I personally think most of their hierarchy is suitable for their species and seems biological in nature. I'd be more willing to guess that the influence of Order is responsible for their social structures if they maintained a quasi-eusocial civil order like most humanoids do, but this is not the case. They actually seem generally fairly individualistic and their social order is mostly maintained by deference to familial hierarchies—there are exceptions to the latter, such as with Kalecgos, but I would figure that to be an aberration more than anything.

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It would be kinda weird to take this much time to redeem the black dragonflight, re-introduce Sabellian only to then whack part of the flight with the villain bat again.

That's my feeling, as well. I also think it would be plain annoying to have Golden or Danuser shove their favorite characters down our throats again while sidelining character which may prove more interesting.

I think having a trifecta of leading characters with Wrathion as Aspect, Ebyssian as advisor and Sabellian as someone who routinely challenges Wrathion but is ultimately loyal would work pretty well.

Not implausible, for sure. I think that would be perfectly fine.

[Nymrohd]

My main concern with that is that it offers up some Doylist annoyances—I feel like it would be a continuation of that awkward, preachy tendency that the current writers seem to have. When put up against other changes such as the new Horde Council, it would seem like a democracy wank rather than a necessary change. Taken per se, I actually think that's a perfectly fine idea, but I think that it would contribute in this setting to a trend that's already starting to grate.

I'd also say that their social order doesn't look like it would suit a democracy—their social order is built around a quasi-familial hierarchy according to Draconic broods. Wyrms maintaining massive broods seem to be at the head of their society, so it seems like they naturally defer to a certain inherent hierarchy rather than any kind of social construct. However, as I think about this, this does open up the possibility of Dragons establishing a kind of oligarchical quasi-democracy in which broods organized like noble houses vie for power.

There are two issues with this—first off, as I've mentioned from time-to-time, there are certain structures that I think are better left untouched in the setting. I feel like it perturbs the setting to effectively reduce the lofty role of the Dragon Aspects to in-name-only humanoid stand-ins. Although plausible from a Watsonian perspective, especially with Thrall setting the precedent for an interim humanoid Aspect in Cataclysm, from a Doylist perspective I think that certain roles should remain fundamentally consistent to avoid turning the setting into even more of a Ship of Theseus than it already is. With all the damage done by introducing the First Ones and the like and all the fundamental structural changes some factions and characters have seen, I feel like we're already on that path and it's best not to expedite the eventual transformation of the setting into something that is effectively only Warcraft in name only.

I personally think most of their hierarchy is suitable for their species and seems biological in nature. I'd be more willing to guess that the influence of Order is responsible for their social structures if they maintained a quasi-eusocial civil order like most humanoids do, but this is not the case. They actually seem generally fairly individualistic and their social order is mostly maintained by deference to familial hierarchies—there are exceptions to the latter, such as with Kalecgos, but I would figure that to be an aberration more than anything.

I share your concern; anything I suggest is in normative terms. In pragmatic terms I would want them to keep the story surface level, focus on epic feel good moments, do call backs and let the level and quest design do some world building because that's what I think they are best at and what I think the medium allows (unless you change the nature of the game so the gameplay is just the means to the end of reaching the next cinematic). Anything more complex is just too much for this team.

Democracy and familial oligarchies is not really that distinct when dealing with relatively small populations. You'd have family blocks mostly voting together with respected (and likely older; dragons in fantasy are often gerontocratic) wyrms leading the blocks.
Then there is the issue of small numbers. Of the five flights, the only one that is numerous seems to be the bronze; the black is pretty much limited to Sabellian's salvaged brood, the blues are a few stray dragons, many greens were wiped by the Nightmare and the reds have fought the most. The Bronzes are probably heading for their own extinction event when Murozond happens and a good part of the flight turns infinite with him.

[Sondrelk]

My response to this would be, why do the dragonflights need leaders? Can they not be led by democracy given their populations are not particularly large and their population is fairly intelligent as is? For that matter, why do the Aspects even need to be Dragons? Is Kalecgos more deserving of being the Aspect of Magic than Khadgar? E.g. Aegwynn certainly was far more deserving than Malygos who abdicated his oath in his grief (while Aegwynn kept fighting even her own child in service of Azeroth). Thrall could be a better Aspect of the Earth than Wrathion. Malfurion has done as much if not more to guard the dream as Ysera has.

The idea of the flights as monarchies can very well be instinct; for all we know the dragons may have pack behaviour. But it could just be the influence of Order. And while I do not thing the influence of Order is universally negative, that doesn't mean it should not be challenged. We talked about this earlier with the Kyrian were we had a narrative about challenging tradition and I'll clarify that I do not at all mind challenging tradition (as long as we have actual arguments on why the challenge is valid that are not deeply rooted in a very narrow and biased view of morality). The flights seem perfect for democracy. Heck considering how the blues chose a new Aspect, the structure for a conclave is there.

I imagine the aspects should be dragons more because they are immortal.
Sure we have Khadgar as a possible Magic Aspect, but what about when he dies?
Making the aspects someone immortal, or at least effectively immortal makes it so there is some constancy in who leads said aspect, even if said person isn't necessarily the most powerful.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Wrathion, if only for the character development he has gone through. He's not the little dragon we first met. Yeah he's not perfect but I think he's close to becoming what....we'd want of Neltharion.