Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Fyersing]

Changing the model; outside of eye color variances and skin variance, would make them seem as something they are not. Again as Ion has said BE's are HE's and HE's are essentially BE's minus the fel corruption.

This statement doesn't jive well with how variable any given population can become, especially when under duress. These people are all biologically identical:



A biological distinction doesn't have to exist for a population to self-express in entirely different ways.

It wouldn't be shocking to the senses if the HE's, having shifted their collective priorities away from magical ability and towards combat proficiency, present as being more physically robust than their kinfolk-in-red -- more fully cultivated by strenuous physicality. This militarism, in conjunction with a necessity to maintain allegiance with the Alliance, could easily be cited as explanation for the motivations of the HE's having clearly deviated (this process become more rapid recently) from venerating the creations (i.e. things, like Silvermoon or Sunwell) to exalting the creators (i.e. themselves, whatever they create going forward).

A model which is structurally similar, but more pragmatically athletic, and a culture which has chosen to distance themselves from things they had no part of (instead of retroactively laying claim to the achievements of their ancestors) -- on paper, this is strikingly different from Blood Elves (and Void Elves, who present as being BE's without common sense).

[Syegfryed]

This statement doesn't jive well with how variable any given population can become, especially when under duress. These people are all biologically identical:

bu you are ocmpring apeople distant of normal humans from 2700 years, with a lot of generation nd even maybe with dust magic influence

elves had 10- years, with no new genrations to look different. they are the same and should look the same

and being realistic, if they don't look exactly like BE people from both sides will complain, one because it look like what they want, and the other because the model was too good

[Arcene]

I had hoped for at least one not horribly ugly race on horde to be druids as well, but if not for some perceived lore reasons, blizzard did surely scrap any notion of that by half-assing nightborn to push them out the door as fast as possible (see customization options..) to release them with the other allied-races.

Off-topic I know but can you imagine their forms? Mana-saber and whatnot with their typical Nightborne glow and tattoos? It would be glorious.

On-topic on the whole talking about when the split should have happened I mean we have several thousand years to play with. The Troll Wars ended 2,800 years before the Dark Portal (Unless they changed that it's possible the lore seems as inconsistent as Tyrande's characterisation at this point) so if you do it anywhere after that you have a population of High Elves who still think Humans are pretty rad. You just need to some how take a snap shot, put em somewhere else and then pull em out of the fridge in the present day with a different appearance due to separation or a magical mcguffin.

High Elves a la Nightborne since that's the same plot device but how many times have Blizzard pulled that at this point? ... well 2 I think but beside the point. may as well go for a hat-trick.

[Obelisk Kai]

snip

snip

snip

But none of this matters.

That's the problem with this topic, and something I am guilty of too, over-elaboration. We go up and down so many rhetorical rabbit holes, we focus on the more inane and pointless details of the game's lore, that we lose sight of the big picture.

In the end, this boils down to something very simple.

The Alliance won't be getting High Elves because Blizzard thinks High Elves are already playable as Blood Elves (and if we want to elaborate just a tad, they gave Void Elves to the Alliance as a way of letting them play a thalassian elf that wasn't identical to a Blood Elf). It is as simple as that.

Everything else discussed from population to models to narrative, the majority of it is irrelevant.

For many years, those who have sought playable Alliance High Elves have striven to find some point of substantial differentiation between the two groups. Are there differences? Yes. But they have proven to be so extraordinarily minor. In fact, ask a lay person in game what the difference between an Alliance High Elf and a Horde Blood Elf is and they will mention one of two things. Either the faction they are on or the eye colour.

When it came to Blizzard finally giving the Alliance a thalassian elf model, Blizzard provided their own spin to differentiate them from the Blood Elves.

Ask a lay person about Void Elves, and they will know they are shadowy elf who used to be a Blood Elf and has weird void powers. While many complain the Void Elves came out of nowhere, they already cut a more substantial profile in game compared to an Alliance High Elf. They have a hook of their own to build on.

[Garfurion]

And yet from what we've seen, Kul'Tiran humans are naturally taller and thicker than normal humans, most likely brought on by a life of sailing. And they've lived there for how long?

Now, how long have HE's lived in Stormwind after the HE/BE split? What.. 20-ish years.

The size difference between the Kul Tirans model and standard human model cannot be the result of living conditions and Kul Tiras has never been really isolated. The Dutch went from a short people (on average) to the tallest (on average) in +- 100 years but the difference between them and neighboring countries is still relatively small.

In Warcraft 3 Night-Elf archers used the same model and animations as Blood/High-Elves and in vanilla all Night/High and Blood-Elves used the same model and Blood Elves had red eyes. All that changed in the blink of an eye the moment TBC launched. Void Elves suddenly developed different hair styles after their transformation. Wildhammer Dwarves should be taller and leaner than Bronzebeard Dwarves yet this is not (yet) reflected in game.

10-20 years of different environments could have an effect both physical (e.g. more/less muscular/fat) or cultural (hair-styles). High Elves in Stormwind might have had access to better food&healthcare compared to Blood Elves fighting to regain Silvermoon and depending on Forsaken aid.

Whether this potential difference is enough to warrant an updated model is for Blizzard to decide. They tend to adapt the lore to suit the gameplay and so far it has been convenient for High Elves to use reskinned copies of Blood Elven resources (characters and building) while e.g. the Lodges resemble Night-Elven buildings since they were introduced in vanilla.

[Fyersing]

I still doubt that would happen. HE's; or Elves in general, tend to be more stubborn than most, a prime example of that being HE's unwillingness to do what BE's did and siphon life from lesser creatures. I doubt they'd make a movement in giving up magic, something they've delved into for centuries if not millennia.

What I posited was that it's clear High Elves have collectively deprioritized magic, not that they've abandoned it. As the overwhelming majority of High Elves, in-game, are styled as Rogues/Warriors/Hunters this isn't really something that can be doubted -- it's simply the reality.

bu you are ocmpring apeople distant of normal humans from 2700 years, with a lot of generation nd even maybe with dust magic influence

elves had 10- years, with no new genrations to look different. they are the same and should look the same

This is an irrelevant, non sequitor to the point made.

There are traits which are biological in nature, which cannot be changed via cultural behaviors/lifestyle choices (i.e. height, pigmentation for eyes, hair, and skin). There are also traits which aren't biological in nature, which can be changed via cultural behaviors/lifestyle choices (i.e. muscle mass, hair styles, temperment, etc.).

It's entirely reasonable that after 11-years of hard living, High Elves would generally be more physically rugged and poised much differently than the Blood Elves.

This is what happened when this guy spent 5 years living harder than he had before:
http://cairogyms.com/wp-content/uplo...odybuilder.jpg

This is what happened when this guy spent 9 years living harder than he had before:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/gGwKpqWI9CQ/maxresdefault.jpg

The Alliance won't be getting High Elves because Blizzard thinks High Elves are already playable as Blood Elves (and if we want to elaborate just a tad, they gave Void Elves to the Alliance as a way of letting them play a thalassian elf that wasn't identical to a Blood Elf). It is as simple as that.

I have to nitpick, because I see this mistakenly touted all over the place. The exact wording that Ion Hozzikostas used was as follows:

"Spoiler's guys, Blood Elves are pretty much High Elves. Void Elves are also pretty much another flavor of High Elves."

The context suggests that he's using "High Elves" in a historical sense -- the meaning of his statement, then, being that Blood Elves are the modern cultural body which most adequately fulfills the fantasy of the "traditional High Elves". Similarly, Void Elves are a re-flavoring of these "traditional High Elves" (which makes sense, because they're former Blood Elves).

He doesn't speak at all to subject of "modern High Elves", except for the addendum that follows the above statement wherein he mentions that the HE's are being assimilated into other groups (which nobody concedes, except @Northem).

So when people say, "High Elves are Blood Elves", they're both inverting the meaning of Ion's statement and ignoring political reality in favor of generalized categorization. It's not really different from saying, "North Koreans are South Koreas", unironically.

When it came to Blizzard finally giving the Alliance a thalassian elf model, Blizzard provided their own spin to differentiate them from the Blood Elves.

Ask a lay person about Void Elves, and they will know they are shadowy elf who used to be a Blood Elf and has weird void powers. While many complain the Void Elves came out of nowhere, they already cut a more substantial profile in game compared to an Alliance High Elf. They have a hook of their own to build on.

I agree that Void Elves are unique and interesting, relative to the rest of the Alliance. Their cultural footprint aside, doesn't it seem peculiar that Blizzard would set out to create a group entirely distinguishable from Blood Elves... by creating a new group comprised of Blood Elves (when they're fully aware that a political schism had existed between Blood Elves and High Elves for a decade)?

It's also somewhat peculiar that fans of Blood Elves are adamant that implementing playable High Elves, in that "copy/paste" fashion seen throughout the forums, would be an affront to Blood Elves -- but somehow Void Elves are acceptable.

The differences between High Elves and Blood Elves, even if we hypothesize them to be "copy/paste" High Elves, would've included visual distinctions (albeit, perhaps only partially) and cultural distinctions; the differences between Void Elves and Blood Elves are limited to visual divergences. I fail to see how this is a better compromise -- we literally have Blood Elves on the Alliance, you'd think this would be more of an affront to those who genuinely enjoy the Blood Elves, narratively.

[Syegfryed]

This is an irrelevant, non sequitor to the point made.

i don't think so, you re trying to say one being is different from another sure, but ingame models are the same, they will not look different even if they make sense, same with orcs and humans being different but you have only one model

the elves didn't pass trough hard times, or other thing to change then psychically compared to the Blood elves, especially the silver covenant ones

it would only make sense if the wretches ( is that the name?) would be playable

[Fyersing]

i don't think so, you re trying to say one being is different from another sure, but ingame models are the same, they will not look different even if they make sense, same with orcs and humans being different but you have only one model

The fact that both humans and orcs, each group being genetically singular, have been shown to be highly variable suggests this isn't actually a hurdle.

[Syegfryed]

The fact that both humans and orcs, each group being genetically singular, have been shown to be highly variable suggests this isn't actually a hurdle.

they have a reason to be highly variable, unlike the elves, and those turmblr fanfiction are not helping to change that

[Fyersing]

they have a reason to be highly variable, unlike the elves, and those turmblr fanfiction are not helping to change that

A general shift in cultural values, prioritizing combat proficiency above magical ability, is the reason.

The BE's might generally sit somewhere around 2007/2008 in the provided image, owing to their cultural preference for magical prowess; whereas HE's, having generally become more prone to physicality, would reasonably land somewhere between 2011 and 2015.

[Syegfryed]

A general shift in cultural values, prioritizing combat proficiency above magical ability, is the reason.

and when they did that? like never?

silver covenant elves still suck mana and are mages

and there are blood elves who priorize combat proficiency above magical ability, thats why they have warrior and hunters like the farstriders

there is no logical reson

[Fyersing]

and when they did that? like never?

silver covenant elves still suck mana and are mages

and there are blood elves who priorize combat proficiency above magical ability, thats why they have warrior and hunters like the farstriders

there is no logical reson

This was already addressed earlier. You're going to need to fully read into a conversation before trying, half-heartedly at best, to poke holes in them.

The vast majority of HE's don't use magic, full stop. They sate their biological addiction by keeping something magical near them, or keeping themselves near something magical, but otherwise virtually all of them have dedicated themselves to naturalist lifestyles; that we still see HE's who utilize magic doesn't really detract from this general fact.

[Syegfryed]

This was already addressed earlier. You're going to need to fully read into a conversation before trying, half-heartedly at best, to poke holes in them.

nope i red all, the point still standm there is nothing the HE did the Blood don't did it

The vast majority of HE's don't use magic, full stop.

not the silver covenant ones, and the propost is "silver covenant" allied race

They sate their biological addiction by keeping something magical near them, or keeping themselves near something magical, but otherwise virtually all of them have dedicated themselves to naturalist lifestyles; that we still see HE's who utilize magic doesn't really detract from this general fact.

some of then just endure the hunger, marjory suck mana from magic objects

[Garfurion]

nope i red all, the point still standm there is nothing the HE did the Blood don't did it

Apart from living on another planet for +- 25 years in the case of the Alliance Expedition High Elves.

[matrix123mko]

This statement doesn't jive well with how variable any given population can become, especially when under duress. These people are all biologically identical:



A biological distinction doesn't have to exist for a population to self-express in entirely different ways.

It wouldn't be shocking to the senses if the HE's, having shifted their collective priorities away from magical ability and towards combat proficiency, present as being more physically robust than their kinfolk-in-red -- more fully cultivated by strenuous physicality. This militarism, in conjunction with a necessity to maintain allegiance with the Alliance, could easily be cited as explanation for the motivations of the HE's having clearly deviated (this process become more rapid recently) from venerating the creations (i.e. things, like Silvermoon or Sunwell) to exalting the creators (i.e. themselves, whatever they create going forward).

A model which is structurally similar, but more pragmatically athletic, and a culture which has chosen to distance themselves from things they had no part of (instead of retroactively laying claim to the achievements of their ancestors) -- on paper, this is strikingly different from Blood Elves (and Void Elves, who present as being BE's without common sense).

Kul'tirans have T H I C C bones so they are biologically different.

[Traycor]

Surprised at the effort put in for this, digging up that warcraft II nostalgia was a cheap shot, well done though.

Here's an image furthering on the idea that the High Elves in the Alliance can be part of an organization of "Rangers". These are kind of like Navy Seals and are not a defined class. Any class could be a Ranger. This works well because WoW has underutilized the Ranger motif, mainly because it didn't fit for all race/class combinations in the Hunter class. It's a very iconic concept that we don't really have, so it makes a lot of sense to give it to the High Elves.

[Blazindragon1737]

Hey i just wanted to say that I really like the idea of this post but i think it should maybe be the Highvale High Elves that live in the Hinterlands as the faction since the Silver Covenant is supposed to mostly military and wouldn't fit all the class roles.

I would also like to suggest looking at this page by Jokubas about the Stonemaul Ogres or basically just Ogres joining the Horde in general, I think it could give you a bunch more ideas such as class lore, hunters pet and just the setup. He even made a website for his Ogre passion and I really think you guys could help each other out in more ways than one by making a collaboration together of what could be the 2 next playable Races instead of an Allied one.

P.S. I can't post the links due to this being a new account.

I personally would like to see a new Alliance race I thought of and would like your opinion I called them the called the Glacialfur Cyclopes. They would be the size of Ogres, pretty hairy but not fully covered, have pretty big feet, maybe have two horns with one that is usually partially broken, have a neanderthal kind of face and one big eye obviously. They could come with a bunch of skin/fur color combos if more Tribes join as I'm trying to base them off of Cyclops, Yetis, Abominable Snowmen, Sasquatches, Bigfeet and Neanderthals which is the only none monster i just needed a face description. They could maybe even have dark green fur if they have a tribe which live near a swamp or dark purple fur for fantasy creatures similar to these monsters like the Purple People Eater or Swamp Monster

[Zorish]

oh i see topic moved to "HE" are thicker than BE because they refused magic
Hey people. "HE" didn't stop using magic! hello! They just refused to sate their hunger with fel power (wich ACTUALLY can make living creatuer "Thicker" yeah)!
And let's don't forget that BE leader is RANGER! Then he must be "thicker" too? And Liadrin who WEARING F**KING ARMOR AND BASH ENEMIES WITH SWORD AND SHIELD! I think "rangers" of Blood elves still there and they are trained enough to be like you say "muscular"? Stop being ridiculus already. BLOOD ELF NAME DIDN'T CHANGED ELVED APPEARANCE PHYSICALY! Only colors of their cloth and color of their eyes (after fel "rdiation" in the city)! They still elves! Even Rangers!

Update: Want to actually see "High Elves" without magic? Go for Withered. Yeah - THAT'S what happen with elf without magic at all. Your "glorious High Elves" still took magic! STILL! FROM OTHER SOURCES! LIKE DALARAN CITI OF MAGES ITSELF OR MAGICAL ARTIFACTS! Their "life" as you say would lead them to NOT being "muscular", but thinner! Like with withered! it's their Physiology wich require magic for them to live! Or do you think they will "adapt" during same generation? Don't make me laugh

With the reigniting of the Sunwell, the pangs of their magic addiction are being eased and more high elves are no longer tempted to succumb to it.[43]

- - - Updated - - -

And yet noone raises an eyebrow over the speed of change in Orcs, BElfs, Forsaken and others?

speed of what? Orcs not long lived race like elves, Blood elves still have half of the city in ruins and part of their population were wiped during KT death and sunwell events during BC. They still not big in numbers O_o and VE separation lowered their numbers even more

[Lumineus]

That's your headcanon. Withered are Night Elves formerly tied to the Nightwell. High/Blood Elves have never been shown to wither. At worst those with weak constitution merely die. And before you bring up the Wretched, know that they are overdosed, not starved.

Incidentally, it's obvious that you're passionate about denying the possibility of playable High Elves, but talking down to people in all caps, especially when you don't even know what you're talking about, is more likely to make them want to shove a rusty nail through your eye socket than listen to anything you have to say.

[Zorish]

That's your headcanon. Withered are Night Elves formerly tied to the Nightwell. High/Blood Elves have never been shown to wither. At worst those with weak constitution merely die. And before you bring up the Wretched, know that they are overdosed, not starved.

Incidentally, it's obvious that you're passionate about denying the possibility of playable High Elves, but talking down to people in all caps, especially when you don't even know what you're talking about, is more likely to make them want to shove a rusty nail through your eye socket than listen to anything you have to say.

what? really? REALLY! YOU REALLY SAID THAT?! http://www.wowhead.com/npc=15965/duskwither-apprentice So this bastards are nothing and nonexistant?!
or this? http://www.wowhead.com/npc=15644/wretched-urchin
OKAY! i MAYBE made a mistake and CALLED them withered INSTEAD of Wretched. BUT THEY STILL THERE!

Edit: and yes - specialy FOR YOU. i am NOT against adding them playable (f**king world of elfcraft... do we really need 5 elven races?). i am against the idea that THEY ARE DIFFERENT FROM BLOOD ELVES! Because they are not! Not in the same generation! Not in the same generation of ELVES! who need catalyst or veeeery long time (or both) to change so drasticaly! And specialy! If you add "High elves" you add them to BOTH factions (or as race for aliance and customisation for Blood elves). Because blizzard said that Blood elves can "cleanse" from this "fel taint" in some time. Like... There is NO! LORE! REASON! FOR! THEM! TO BE DIFFERENT! That's my pont there.