Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Garfurion]

High/Blood Elves become wretched if they consume too much arcane or fel energy in a short period of time. Interestingly enough, being pumped full of void energy seems to not have this effect although the end result is probably the same, insanity.

The High Elves didn't overcome their addiction after the Sunwell was destroyed. But where Blood Elves gave in to their addiction and resorted to the vampiric behavior of draining energy from living beings, the High Elves tried to fight their addiction and limited themselves to only arcane objects of energy such as magical artifacts, mana stones, etc...

[Obelisk Kai]

I'm not making a "false equivalence" because you're the one making said "equivalence". You were the one who mentioned that the character creation screen refers to the blood elves as 'high elves' when talking about the past, to which I responded 'so what?' since 'night elves' would be called 'trolls' by the character creation screen bio went back far enough. It's not about transformation speed, or transformation whatsoever.

The point is that bringing up Night Elves as a counter-point does not work, and I went to the bother of illustrating why. That is why it is a false equivalence. Now you can either let this particular point go and accept that there is a reason Blood Elves are termed High Elves within the character creator or you can really dig and try in and try and prove whatever it is you are trying to prove by pointing out that they don't mention the Night Elves' Troll origin within the same framework.

No. No, they did not. And your example further exemplifies it. What a "highborne" is remained unchanged despite the fact a huge sect of them splintered off and renamed themselves "night elves." The nightborne are the closest thing to a "highborne" than a night elf could ever be.

The so called Highborne retreated to Dire Maul, unable to sustain their civilization and unwilling to participate in Night Elven civilization, preferring to live among the ruins. However they were still Night Elves, despite their self imposed exiled, and when they eventually returned to Kaldorei society they were seen as Night Elves, not some kind of new race due to their political separation. Highborne was not the name of the race. Highborne was the name of a caste within Night Elf society that set itself above all others. A Nightborne is as close as you can get to playing a member of the old Night Elven civilization, but their physical changes mean they are something new and distinct from true Night Elves.

In some ways, the Highborne who are the source of the Night Elf Mages in modern WoW are analagous to the Alliance High Elves, a sect of political malcontents who refused to participate in their people's civilization due to a philosophical dispute. They did not get to redefine what Night Elf civilization is, or preserve it because the vast majority of their people elected to go a different path.

And again: no, the blood elves did not redefine what it meant to be a high elf, at all. They simply redefined themselves to be something else, in this case, blood elves. High elves remain unchanged. In a real life comparison, what you're doing is basically asserting that Brazil, who has roughly 50% of the entire population of South America, defines what it means to be "south american", over all the other, much smaller countries.

Yes, they did. They changed their name. You are arguing that this constitutes an abandonment of who and what they were, but as demonstrated the Blood Elves act and behave pretty much exactly the same way as when they called themselves High Elves. Something you acknowledged when you compared the High Elves under Anasterian to the Blood Elves under Lor'themar. Once again, your counter example is incorrect. Brazil has roughly half the population of the continent and is rooted in Portugeuese rather than Spanish colonization. The Spanish speaking countries collectively have fifty percent of the population too as well as well over half the territory as well as their own sovereign governments capable of articulating their positions.

The closest real world counterpart to the thalassian elf situation is Cuba. There is a government in Cuba, there is a head of state, there is a defined territory and a defined people. There is also a group of emigrants from Cuba who live in a power hostile to Cuba, the United States, and who support the United States in their efforts to topple the current Cuban government.

If the Cuban government declared that the name of the country would now be Isla Juana and that the people of Cuba were now to be known as Juanans, does that mean they cease to be Cuban? Would the world suddenly pretend these people had never been Cuban, and that only the emigre community in Florida were the real Cubans? Don't be ridiculous. What would happen is that the term Cuban, in a modern context, would be devalued, not a statement of shared nationality but a political objection to what was going on back home. Neither side would be any less Cuban, but the terminology would take on additional connotations in light of the political context. But nobody would think a Cuban who fled to Florida thirty years ago would be a different nationality from someone in downtown Havana.

But that does not mean, in any conceivable way, that the blood elves define the high elf's culture, especially for those who were exiled. Blood elves only define what the blood elf culture is.

Blood Elf culture is High Elven culture. The Night Elves redefined what it meant to be Night Elven, despite the objections of the Highborne minority who fled to Dire Maul. These Highborne were still Night Elves. Blood Elves redefined what it is to be a High Elf in the same way, although far less drastic. What Malfurion did was a complete reordering of a society and it's values. What Kael did was change an adjective. Yet the Night Elves remained Night Elves, just as the Blood Elves remain High Elves. Simply changing an adjective does not mean they abandoned who they were.

It is also the case that the Alliance High Elves are simply not strong enough to maintain a separate culture. Remember what Elisande said about diluting the bloodline?
They live in a Human city. They are under Human rule. They participate in a Human military. Wherever they can they ape their own people as I mentioned previously, but they are slowly fading away and being assimilated into Human society. There is no unique Alliance High Elf culture that can claim to be the true High Elf experience.

Except I'm pretty sure someone like you would understand that the word "race" in terms of the character selection screen does not mean "actual race" in the lore. They don't actually have to be a "different race" down to the genetic level to be considered a "race" in game terms. For example: do we know if whatever process the void elves have undergone changed them down to the genetic level, or is just physical changes? If it's just physical changes, they're no more of a "new race" than someone in real life with a missing limb and a prosthetic replacement.

Also... do you consider "demon hunters" to be a "separate race" from blood elves and night elves? They fit your bill of a new race>: same models, different lore, different theme.

Demon Hunters probably are a new race, but they are defined as a class as they can only be Demon Hunters. That is a consequence of the pact they made. As for Void Elves, they are a new race within the rules of the game world. I think the distinction between genetics and physical changes is a red herring. I doubt any Void Elf will have children given the potential for corruption. As a race they will reproduce by recruitment or they will die out following the end of WoW's time period.

So is "highborne" the name of the entire elven race, but neither night elves nor blood elves get to define what a "highborne" is.

Oh now I get it, I was wondering earlier. You've a completely wrong understanding of what a Highborne is.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Highborne

'The Highborne (or quel'dorei, meaning "children of noble birth" in Darnassian), were the upper class and a sect of the ancient night elf civilization[3] composed of the favored servitors of Queen Azshara.'

No, the entire Elven race was originally called Kaldorei, children of the stars, which is still the Night Elf name for themselves. Highborne were the ruling class who caused the first invasion. Some Highborne retreated to Dire Maul. Some Highborne sealed themselves and their city away and became Nightborne. Some attempted to work with what Night Elf civilization had been redefined as, but were exiled and changed physically into High Elves.

These Elves became a new people because of their physical changes and cultural separation from the Night Elves, processes that took centuries and millenia to complete. They are not equivalent to the split between the Blood Elves and the handful of traitors wholed up in Dalaran. Blood Elves have the right to define what a High Elf is because they are High Elves. And they have defined it as being a Blood Elf.

It is very relevant because you're conflating a race splintering itself off to simply forming different tribes. All troll tribes still recognize themselves as trolls. Blood elves no longer recognize themselves as high elves currently. Blood elves did not name their capital, they changed the name of their race, and kicked out those who refused to follow.

Isn't the Blood Elves not changing their capital's name a symbol of the basic continuity between High Elf and Blood Elf civilization? Blood Elves have redefined what a High Elf is. The vast, vast majority of living thalassian elves are Blood Elves. They are physically, culturally and thematically identical to High Elves. Troll tribes all define themselves as Trolls, yes, but that is an underlying commonality between multiple different tribes of similar size and strength.

Blood Elves in contrast are well over 90% of the Thalassian elf population. They don't need a common point of reference because they ARE High Elven civilization.

Did the title really originate with the elves? How do we know it did not originate from the trolls who preceded them? And you're making a special pleading fallacy here by giving "special circumstances" to the origin of the "magister" title while brushing all others under the same rug of "translated into equivalents", considering that Horde footsoldiers are called "grunts" and Alliance footsoldiers are called, well, soldiers.

Really? How many Troll Magisters have you seen? The very use of the term is meant to imply a level of control and sophistication with just a hint of the exotic. We have seen Blood Elf Magisters, Nightborne Magisters. We have seen High Elven Magisters in the past and Alliance High Elf Magisters in the present. We have seen Human Magisters from the Kirin Tor, the organization whose first members were taught by Elves. It is clearly Elven.

How do you know, considering that, until WC3's ending, all elves were literally immortal?

Easily. As I stated, the Night Elves regarded the theory they descended from Trolls with great hostility. Now, if any of those originally Trollified Night Elves were still around you would think they would have mentioned that this was in fact the case. Speculation with occam's razor leads to the likeliest result, the well changed the Trolls around the well over time into Night Elves, and then the Night Elves received immortality from the well. This process took time, several generations, during which the original Night Elves who had been Trolls died off and then enough time to pass so that the truth vanished as well.

Um... excuse me? Spiritually modified?

Their connection to the void and the whispers they hear from the Void Lords.

They might think about it when high elves join the Horde, which they haven't, so far. They want to play high elves, not blood elves.

High Elves have joined the Horde. As Ion Hazzikostas stated on two separate occasions, Blood Elves are High Elves. You being pissed that that is how they were defined does not give you the right to argue that that is not the case.

What difference would it make for Blizzard if they made the Void elves actually be high elves instead of blood elves? I'll tell you what: none. But they didn't go that route. Hence why "void elves" are as much a compromise as a slap to the wrist is to a kid asking for a candy bar.

As stated, it is heavily implied that the Void Elves are capable of turning other Elves into Void Elves and given they can turn Ravasaurs into Void Ravasaurs, I would argue it is more than implied. They are accompanied by Alliance High Elves in Stormwind. Alliance High Elves are with them in Tel'rogus studying the void. There is nothing stopping a roleplayer from playing their Void Elf as an Alliance High Elf who has spent the past decade in Dalaran who has embraced the void.

The lore origin of the Void Elves is a distinction that would primarily exist in the minds of those who play a Void Elf. It is still, at the end of the day, a void addled thalassian elf with blue skin tones and optional tentacles. It is NOT a Blood/High Elf. If all that matters to you is that lore origin, then the path is clear for you.
I would argue that the lore origin is ultimately irrelevant, and that even were something that is 99% certain explicitly stated to be the case, that Alliance High Elves can become Void Elves, you still wouldn't be happy because the real problem isn't that you can't argue Void Elves weren't Alliance High Elves, which you can but that a Void Elf is not a Blood/High Elf.

And the addition of high elves to the Alliance would affect blood elves just as much as me wearing different pants today would affect my brother who lives in another State.

You complained a few posts ago that nobody ever explained to you why Alliance High Elves would have a negative impact. I took the time to do so. Do not pretend you were not told and do not peddle what YOU think to be the non consequences of their addition.

Remember, you are an utterly biased fan with an agenda. Your agenda is playable Alliance High Elves. To achieve that goal, you have the incentive to ignore or minimise all other concerns that get in the way your goal. That's understandable on a Human level, but in terms of pure debate is indefensible. Your analysis of the consequences of Alliance High Elves is worthless, given your innate bias.

Usual retort to this point is to point out how I am biased as well, which is true, but I have the developers on my side who also expressed concerns regarding faction diversity in relation to Alliance High Elves so my position is vastly easier to defend.

Which further drives the point home that they're not a race in a lore sense. No more than demon hunters are a new race, or that people in the real world with missing limbs and prosthetic replacements are a new race.

The difference between a class and a race is that a class is what you do whereas a race is what you are.

Demon Hunters fulfil many of the same criteria that Void Elves do to be counted as a separate race, except they can't do anything else except be a Demon Hunter.

Void Elves by contrast can be seven separate classes, not just Shadow Priests. You will never have a Demon Hunter warrior, or a Demon Hunter Priest. A Demon Hunter is just a Demon Hunter.

I think I Fixed that for you but it's actually a demonstration of my bias.

And I fixed that for you. Please do not alter my words.

Controlling the sunwell does not mean they control the culture of the non-blood elves, as demonstrated in the lore.

Controlling the land and the main capital does not mean they control the culture of the non-blood elves, as demonstrated in the lore.

Controlling the military does not mean they control the culture of the non-blood elves, as demonstrated in the lore.

Controlling blood elf magisters does not mean they control the high elf magisters, or the culture of the non-blood elves, as demonstrated in the lore.

In fact, I imagine high elf magisters couldn't give two shits about what the blood elves do to change the magisters they "control".

Controlling all the above along with the vast majority of the population and maintaining a separate, sovereign government gives them the right to define what a High Elf is. Alliance High Elves control nothing of this. They operate in Human society and under Human direction.

Except all "rights" they could possibly have were thrown right into the dumpster fire when they re-branded their race and kicked out everyone who still clung to high elf ideals.

The racial rebranding was done by Kael'thas. The kicking out was done by Lor'themar Theron because they refused to accept the teaching Rommath brought back from Outland. Which covers a time period which saw Kael'thas leave Quel'thalas, hook up with the Alliance, fight with the Alliance, be betrayed by Garithos, escape to Outland and pledge service to Illidan. This means that anyone who was kicked out must have, if only for a time, accepted the name of Blood Elf and they reverted to the title 'High Elf' following their exile. After all, the rationale for their exile was that Lor'themar could not lead a divided nation. Had these individuals refused the name Blood Elf when Kael (the recognized sovereign at the time with the right to make the change), whose public plan was to lead their forces to the aid of the Alliance shortly after leaving Quel'thalas, they would have been exiled sooner-particularly as they wouldn't have had any leg to stand on in objection.

No, it does not. Especially when one group does not recognize the other.

Yes, it does, particularly when that majority controls literally everything that defines High Elf civilization.

No, it does not, especially when said "government" does not recognizes the non-blood elves as part of their 'country'.

Alliance High Elves are exiles and traitors who have no sovereign Elven government, living in the Human Kingdom of Dalaran.

No, they redefined themselves as blood elves. The simple fact we still have high elves around that still call themselves high elves is proof of that.

If the Cuban people renamed themselves today, the emigres in Miami would probably still call themselves Cuban to make a political point, but it wouldn't change the fact that the Cuban people had changed their name. Nor would it confer on those emigres the right to define what a Cuban is, as Cuban would have (in this never going to happen hypothetical situation) been redefined. Just as Zaire was redefined as the Democratic Republic of Congo and the Zairean people are now Congolese.

That's not what "intrinsic" means. The blood elves and draenei were as "intrinsic" as the current allied races at the moment of their introduction. Intrinsic means "base values", not its connections to other things.

Except you didn't answer it. I asked for just one example of a blood elf describing themself as a 'high elf' in the present tense, as in, in the "right now". If you can't find any, it's a good indication that they don't consider themselves as such, anymore.

Blood Elves redefined the term High Elves to be Blood Elves. The term High Elf is redundant, used by traitors as a political point. It isn't used because it isn't necessary. But that does not mean Blood Elves are not High Elves, it merely means they have redefined the concept. Everything that defines what a High Elf is, that is represented by the Blood Elves and is carried as a part of their legacy. Alliance High Elves do not have the right to define what a High Elf as that has been defined by the Blood Elves, it is the past. Their honored past. Those who bear the name now do not do so as representatives of a grand and ancient civilization of magisters and rangers, they do so to make a political point that they are part of the Alliance and not the Horde. They demean the term by it's use that way, politicising it.

And this is the end of our conversation it seems. Not out of malice, but because I will be unable to use a computer for the next week for any length of time by which point this conversation will have moved on, and replying by phone is never comfortable. Given we are never going to agree, such an interruption is probably for the best.

[DeicideUH]

However in Cataclysm the High Elves of Quel'Lithien Lodge became Wretched.

Should be noted that it was caused by an "artifact of seductive power" found by Renthar Hawkspear. And Renthar himself was able to avoid being afflicted by it.

[dragnipur]

Doesn't matter what, doesn't matter when, doesn't matter if it comes in pairs.

But i would like San'layn or Vulpera for my faction honestly. Those would add a new layer for the Forsaken or a cool and cute race.

I'm also rooting for San'layn

- - - Updated - - -

High/Blood Elves become wretched if they consume too much arcane or fel energy in a short period of time. Interestingly enough, being pumped full of void energy seems to not have this effect although the end result is probably the same, insanity.

The High Elves didn't overcome their addiction after the Sunwell was destroyed. But where Blood Elves gave in to their addiction and resorted to the vampiric behavior of draining energy from living beings, the High Elves tried to fight their addiction and limited themselves to only arcane objects of energy such as magical artifacts, mana stones, etc...

In my opinion adding Velf was a bad idea.There is Shadow priest already.Velf was unneeded adition.It does not bring anything to the table which Spriest couldn't have.

[Varx]

I'm also rooting for San'layn

- - - Updated - - -



In my opinion adding Velf was a bad idea.There is Shadow priest already.Velf was unneeded adition.It does not bring anything to the table which Spriest couldn't have.

By that logic then LF draenie dont make sense because of priests and paladins.


A void elves entire being is saturated and consumed by the void. A shadow priest simply channels the void. Its like comparing a fire elemental and a fire mage.

They're not the same as say a DH who can only be a DH while a velf can be multiple classes.

[Adunai]

Adding the Silver Covenant in WotLK was some of the biggest Blizzard's mistakes. Now we have a host of High Elf fetishists. And did the Alliance even need an elf counterpart to the Sunreavers? Makes little sense to begin with.

I actually like the idea that Blizzard should have gone with Lightforged Elves and Void Draenei. One of the main arguments of High Elf haters is that they're not distinguishable enough - Light features would help with that, while not distancing them as far from the original High Elves as the Void does.
@Dristereau Don't forget that there was a third High Elf group, the one from Quel'Lithien Lodge. They went Wretched.

Now that I think about it, they would be better described as the Blood Elves who refused to Mana Tap. Being a Blood Elf and Mana Tapping was not originally the same, and no longer is.

- - - Updated - - -

By the way, it's a travesty that they are butchering the Blood Elf lore by calling the race "majestic" and such (instead of the "cold hearted refugees" they were in WC3 and TBC). But that ship sailed long ago, in patch 2.4, when they decided that giving them back the Sunwell, changing it to Holy, and removing the Blood Knights would be a step in the right direction.

[Ielenia]

The point is that bringing up Night Elves as a counter-point does not work, and I went to the bother of illustrating why. That is why it is a false equivalence. Now you can either let this particular point go and accept that there is a reason Blood Elves are termed High Elves within the character creator or you can really dig and try in and try and prove whatever it is you are trying to prove by pointing out that they don't mention the Night Elves' Troll origin within the same framework.

I accepted that blood elves are being called high elves in the character selection screen bio, because it's talking about their past, not their present. Blood elves are no longer "high elves" ever since they took the name "blood elf" and exiled all the high elves who did not choose to follow that idea. The past doesn't matter. The present does.

Yes, they did.

No, they don't. They redefined only themselves. They do not get to "redefine" those who are not under their rule.

They changed their name. You are arguing that this constitutes an abandonment of who and what they were

You are not reading what I wrote. I've already pointed out that simply changing their names does not constitute 'abandonment', but that, coupled with exiling and cutting off all relations with those who do not follow the re-branding does.

Blood Elf culture is High Elven culture.

So what. By that logic, void elf culture is high elf culture, which by your criteria, means void elves should not exist. They still have the same customs and habits they possessed before their conversion.

Demon Hunters probably are a new race, but they are defined as a class as they can only be Demon Hunters. That is a consequence of the pact they made. As for Void Elves, they are a new race within the rules of the game world. I think the distinction between genetics and physical changes is a red herring. I doubt any Void Elf will have children given the potential for corruption. As a race they will reproduce by recruitment or they will die out following the end of WoW's time period.

If the changes the void elves suffered is not passed to their off-spring, then they're not a race. Unless you consider someone who loses a limb and replaces it with a prosthetic as belonging to a "new race". The point here is that the game's definition of the word "race" is not the literal dictionary definition of the word and which does not preclude the addition of high elves to the Alliance. Otherwise "lightforged" would likely just be new customization options for draenei, and "mag'har" would be new customization options for orcs.

Oh now I get it, I was wondering earlier. You've a completely wrong understanding of what a Highborne is.

Got it. My mistake on the definition.

Blood Elves have the right to define what a High Elf is because they are High Elves. And they have defined it as being a Blood Elf.

No, they only get to define what a "blood elf" is, since this is what they've rebranded themselves to. The "blood elf" term does not encompass all of the high elves since not all high elves went through with the idea.

Blood Elves have redefined what a High Elf is.

No, they haven't. They've defined only what a blood elf is.

Blood Elves in contrast are well over 90% of the Thalassian elf population. They don't need a common point of reference because they ARE High Elven civilization.

They are a blood elf civilization. Not a high elf civilization anymore, since their rebranding.

Easily. As I stated, the Night Elves regarded the theory they descended from Trolls with great hostility. Now, if any of those originally Trollified Night Elves were still around you would think they would have mentioned that this was in fact the case. Speculation with occam's razor leads to the likeliest result, the well changed the Trolls around the well over time into Night Elves, and then the Night Elves received immortality from the well. This process took time, several generations, during which the original Night Elves who had been Trolls died off and then enough time to pass so that the truth vanished as well.

Key word there: you're speculating. You do not know that they're all dead. You're assuming. Occam's Razor does not necessary mean the correct result, just the simplest and/or easiest.

Their connection to the void and the whispers they hear from the Void Lords.

That does not mean their faith has changed. They do not worship the void.

High Elves have joined the Horde.

Blood elves did. High elves didn't.

Blood Elves are High Elves.

But not all high elves are blood elves.

As stated, it is heavily implied that the Void Elves are capable of turning other Elves into Void Elves and given they can turn Ravasaurs into Void Ravasaurs, I would argue it is more than implied.

... You do know those are dead ravasaurs being reanimated by the void, right? The world quest even has you collecting ravasaur parts from dead ravasaurs to raise them.

They are accompanied by Alliance High Elves in Stormwind. Alliance High Elves are with them in Tel'rogus studying the void. There is nothing stopping a roleplayer from playing their Void Elf as an Alliance High Elf who has spent the past decade in Dalaran who has embraced the void.

You complained a few posts ago that nobody ever explained to you why Alliance High Elves would have a negative impact. I took the time to do so. Do not pretend you were not told and do not peddle what YOU think to be the non consequences of their addition.

All you did was wrongly claim how the elves would become "neutral" if high elves were added to the Alliance as a playable race, and I already pointed out that your definition of the word "neutral" is bonkers, at best.

The difference between a class and a race is that a class is what you do whereas a race is what you are.

I love how you flip-flop between lore and gameplay meanings of the terms being used as they suit you.

Controlling all the above along with the vast majority of the population and maintaining a separate, sovereign government gives them the right to define what a High Elf is.

No, it doesn't, because not all high elves are under their government's rule, and don't recognize the blood elf's rule and commands over them.

The racial rebranding was done by Kael'thas. The kicking out was done by Lor'themar Theron because they refused to accept the teaching Rommath brought back from Outland. Which covers a time period which saw Kael'thas leave Quel'thalas, hook up with the Alliance, fight with the Alliance, be betrayed by Garithos, escape to Outland and pledge service to Illidan. This means that anyone who was kicked out must have, if only for a time, accepted the name of Blood Elf and they reverted to the title 'High Elf' following their exile. After all, the rationale for their exile was that Lor'themar could not lead a divided nation. Had these individuals refused the name Blood Elf when Kael (the recognized sovereign at the time with the right to make the change), whose public plan was to lead their forces to the aid of the Alliance shortly after leaving Quel'thalas, they would have been exiled sooner-particularly as they wouldn't have had any leg to stand on in objection.

It still doesn't change the fact that all high elves who did not accept the changes were kicked out.

Yes, it does, particularly when that majority controls literally everything that defines High Elf civilization.

Nope, because high elves are not forced to follow the blood elf rule. They wouldn't care if Lor'Themar decreed that all blood elves would have to be bald and worship Sylvanas as they new deity.

Alliance High Elves are exiles and traitors who have no sovereign Elven government, living in the Human Kingdom of Dalaran.

Irrelevant since I was talking about the blood elf government, as they do not recognize the high elves as part of their civilization anymore.

Blood Elves redefined the term High Elves to be Blood Elves.

No. They redefined themselves to be blood elves. They do not have command over their entire race, nor is their entire race somehow forced to follow their government's actions regardless if they agree with it or not.

And this is the end of our conversation it seems. Not out of malice, but because I will be unable to use a computer for the next week for any length of time by which point this conversation will have moved on, and replying by phone is never comfortable. Given we are never going to agree, such an interruption is probably for the best.

Peace, then.

[Combatbutler]

Should be noted that it was caused by an "artifact of seductive power" found by Renthar Hawkspear. And Renthar himself was able to avoid being afflicted by it.

Because he didn't drain on it like the rest of them did, thus overdosing and becoming wretched, after all that is the only way to become a wretched.

[dragnipur]

By that logic then LF draenie dont make sense because of priests and paladins.


A void elves entire being is saturated and consumed by the void. A shadow priest simply channels the void. Its like comparing a fire elemental and a fire mage.

They're not the same as say a DH who can only be a DH while a velf can be multiple classes.

Exactly.They were a mistake.Light forged draenie was also a bad idea.Blizzard could have added Broken(draenei).Even red erredar would be better than Light forged Draenei.But i hope we get them as a DH addition.

[Varx]

Despite everything I've said in this thread, I am not anti high elf in a general sense, just as an AR.

I personally don't see an issue with the way Pandaren were implemented. As high elves and blood elves are the same physical race I see no reason why they can't have the panda treatment so long as it's done carefully. Here's my take on it. Im doing this on my phone so mind any spelling or grammatical errors.

Update eversong/ghostlands and add them to the continent. Lore development would consist of the silver covenant and the void elves beseiging silvermoon with Lorthemar and maybe the Nightborne on the defense.

This would be the major Alliance/Horde conflict for 9.0 and would include a new BG and warfront if blizzard decides to move forward with them. Season 1 PvP gear would have a red and green/blue and silver thalasian theme.

New arenas in Ghostlands and Bloodmist Isle.

New elves choose their alliegnce at the culmination of their starting quests. Blood Elves are changed to Thalasian elves in the creation screen and are then given blood/high after choosing their faction. Elves have brand new customization options including blue,green, and yellow eyes along with many of the options in this threads OP.

Death Knights

The Alliance had high elves during wrath so their intro quests do not need updating. The player chooses their faction after Lights Hope when Darion gives them a choice.

Demon Hunters

This issue has two solutions.

#1 all Thalasian DH are Horde. (Lame solution)

#2 DH intro is revamped lore wise and includes multiple races for each faction. (Sweet solution, more content yay)

To compensate for the loss of Belves as a core race, the Horde would receive Vrykul (i personally think vrykul would look nice as a Horde race)

Allied Race Imbalances.

Velves were treated as the Horde swap for Nightborne. If thalasian elves are neutral then it screws with the balance.

Two solutions to this.

In both scenarios the Alliance gets the Kvaldir(vrykul AR swap) to balance out the Nightborne. Horde on the other hand get...

#1 san'lyan (kinda lame. too many elves,)

#2 Pandaren Varient AR (not as lame as pandas don't have an AR)

Now as you can see this route of implementing high elves gives the game a substantial amount of content where as a simple AR obviously does not.

Imagine if Tinkers are also included in 9.0. Omg content overload.

Then 10.0 gives two new core races with ogres and arrakoa from alternate Draenor for the Horde and Alliance. Possible story line with the crazy AU LF Draenie invading azeroth.

Then 11.0 we'd get 4th specs with Ethereals as a new neutral race, thus creating a neutral trinity. Orb of deception turns elves into ethereals into pandas into elves.

Best part of these would be the death of this thread and crying for helves.

Im on fire baby. Dont stop me nooow.

[Dristereau]

Adding the Silver Covenant in WotLK was some of the biggest Blizzard's mistakes. Now we have a host of High Elf fetishists. And did the Alliance even need an elf counterpart to the Sunreavers? Makes little sense to begin with.

I actually like the idea that Blizzard should have gone with Lightforged Elves and Void Draenei. One of the main arguments of High Elf haters is that they're not distinguishable enough - Light features would help with that, while not distancing them as far from the original High Elves as the Void does.
@Dristereau Don't forget that there was a third High Elf group, the one from Quel'Lithien Lodge. They went Wretched.

Now that I think about it, they would be better described as the Blood Elves who refused to Mana Tap. Being a Blood Elf and Mana Tapping was not originally the same, and no longer is.

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By the way, it's a travesty that they are butchering the Blood Elf lore by calling the race "majestic" and such (instead of the "cold hearted refugees" they were in WC3 and TBC). But that ship sailed long ago, in patch 2.4, when they decided that giving them back the Sunwell, changing it to Holy, and removing the Blood Knights would be a step in the right direction.

The Silver Covenant was added though and is how the story has unfolded and given Vereesa a more prominent role. It gives High Elves a direction for which those who did not return to Silvermoon to go. They've been developed through the Expansions, mainly MoP and Legion to who they are and the more prominent of the two main High Elf groups (the other being the Alliance Expedition to Outland who are far less developed).

I don't think I'm a fan of Void Draenei. LF Elves could have worked but as I said before I think High Elves can be done in a way that gives them a strong identity.

With regards to the High Elves of Quel'Lithien who became Wretched and Quel'Danil neither have enough identity to develop much I don't think and I feel neither of those groups are as interesting, large enough or quite as dedicated to the Alliance as the Silver Covenant. The only two groups who have enough identity are the Silver Covenant who have been developed since WotLK or the Alliance Expedition to Outland who have settled at Allerian Stronghold and a lot more has been done to identify the Silver Covenant and their loyalties as well as show who they are.

[FlubberPuddy]

Blizzard can make the Silver Covenant playable and call them Silver Elves and make up a story and features and customization about how they become playable for the Alliance. No need to get others confused with using "High Elf" and people who want to play Alliance High Elves get to do so now.

Oh and Blood Elf players can continue to feel like Blood Elves are "the real High Elves" that they keep saying the Blood Elves are.

[Aldo Hawk]

@Adunai

Adding anything in the game was a mistake because now we have a bunch of fucking fetishists about things i don't like.

Those mofo fetishists of poop, i have a feeling of aversion towards their physical entities and/or their figurated image.

Please stop with the dumb and think twice what you type...

[DeicideUH]

Because he didn't drain on it like the rest of them did, thus overdosing and becoming wretched, after all that is the only way to become a wretched.

Still, the nature of that artifact was exceptional. One would consider those elves were used to restraining their craving for magic, and suddenly one object makes all of them go over the edge. It's clearly something very corruptive, but the story was never followed-up, so who knows what it was.

[Strippling]

I personally don't see an issue with the way Pandaren were implemented. As high elves and blood elves are the same physical race I see no reason why they can't have the panda treatment so long as it's done carefully.

One glaring issue with this is that Pandaren were implemented as neutral to both factions, whereas adding Alliance high elfs (who are the same race as Blood elfs) would effectively make a core Horde race "neutral". Kind of unfair to expect the Horde to have one of their core races made neutral for the sake of allowing a very small group of Alliance aligned high elfs playable. Since pandas were introduced as neutral it wasn't as big of an issue.

[Varx]

One glaring issue with this is that Pandaren were implemented as neutral to both factions, whereas adding Alliance high elfs (who are the same race as Blood elfs) would effectively make a core Horde race "neutral". Kind of unfair to expect the Horde to have one of their core races made neutral for the sake of allowing a very small group of Alliance aligned high elfs playable. Since pandas were introduced as neutral it wasn't as big of an issue.

You didn't even bother reading the entire post. I recommend you do.

[Garfurion]

The so called Highborne retreated to Dire Maul, unable to sustain their civilization and unwilling to participate in Night Elven civilization, preferring to live among the ruins. However they were still Night Elves, despite their self imposed exiled, and when they eventually returned to Kaldorei society they were seen as Night Elves, not some kind of new race due to their political separation. Highborne was not the name of the race. Highborne was the name of a caste within Night Elf society that set itself above all others. A Nightborne is as close as you can get to playing a member of the old Night Elven civilization, but their physical changes mean they are something new and distinct from true Night Elves.

In some ways, the Highborne who are the source of the Night Elf Mages in modern WoW are analagous to the Alliance High Elves, a sect of political malcontents who refused to participate in their people's civilization due to a philosophical dispute. They did not get to redefine what Night Elf civilization is, or preserve it because the vast majority of their people elected to go a different path.

That's not entirely correct and seems to try force an analogy between the Shen'dralar Highborne and High Elves that doesn't exist.

The Shen'dralar (meaning "Those Who Remain Hidden") were Queen Azshara's most revered arcanists and charged with the storage and safekeeping of her most precious tomes.They established a city called Eldre'Thalas (now known as DireMaul) and defended their city during the War of the Ancients against the Burning Legion. After the Sundering the wove a great spell to shield Eldre'Thalas from it's effects. Once they noticed the destruction of the Well of Eternity and the effects it had on them they build a special prison and summoned a demon to siphon it's energies.

It's unclear why they didn't notice the 2nd Well of Eternity since they weren't cut off from the world like Suramar was. I think it's also unclear why they had no contact with the rest of the Night-Elves after the Sundering but it doesn't have to have been self-imposed exile. The Shen'dralar and Night-Elves simply seem to have been unaware of each other for most of the 10.000 years. I don't think Malfurion or Tyrande would ever have allowed the Shen'dralar to drain energy from a imprisoned demon, nor would that have been necessary had the Shen'dralar known about the new Well of Eternity.

Blood Elf culture is High Elven culture. The Night Elves redefined what it meant to be Night Elven, despite the objections of the Highborne minority who fled to Dire Maul. These Highborne were still Night Elves.

Blood Elf culture is High Elven culture, but Highvale Elf culture is also High Elven culture.

The Shen'dralar didn't flee to DireMaul and since they remained Night-Elves their exploits and history is also Night-Elven history just as their culture is/was also Night-Elven culture. The dominant Night-Elven culture may have changed after the Sundering but there were still sub-cultures which also partially defined what it meant to be a Night-Elf (e.g. there still existed Night Elven mages after the Sundering). With the Highborn actively rejoining the main Night-Elf civilization the main and subculture will probably influence each other and perhaps merge completely.

It's not the largest sub-population of a species that determines what it means to be that species. Not meant to be a perfect example but Humans are not defined as Asians just because most humans live in Asia not is Human culture purely Asian culture.

The same is true for the High Elf fantasy in WoW . By sending back Rommath with teachings of how to siphon magic from living beings Kael'thas influenced and evolved the High Elf fantasy culture. This in turn resulted in a split in that culture. The Silvermoon Sin'dorei are clearly the dominant group and culture but there are or have been small sub-groups with their own sub-cultures over the years such as the Scryer Sin'dorei and Alliance Quel'dorei groups (Highvale refusing to use magic, Alliance Expedition Elves influenced by their time in Outland, Silver Covenant influenced by Dalaran). Each of these subgroups contributes to what it means to be a High Elf in WoW.

Of course as long as Blizzard keeps labeling Quel'dorei as "High Elf" in game, High Elf culture can mean both a Quel'dorei sub-culture or the overall High Elf fantasy culture.

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Despite everything I've said in this thread, I am not anti high elf in a general sense, just as an AR.

I personally don't see an issue with the way Pandaren were implemented. As high elves and blood elves are the same physical race I see no reason why they can't have the panda treatment so long as it's done carefully. Here's my take on it. Im doing this on my phone so mind any spelling or grammatical errors.

I don't think High/Blood Elves as a neutral race can work since you would have to go back in time to the point where Rommath returned from Outland with Kael'thas his teachings on siphoning energy from living beings and then give the player the choice: to drain or not to drain. After that you would have to go forward in time again to play the current expansion.

The High/Blood Elf divide is not simply one of only allegiance. All currently playable Blood Elves drained mana from living beings (at least lorewise given their age) while High Elves wouldn't have done that.

Also as Void and Blood Elves show a model can be available on both factions without it representing an originally neutral race.

[Varx]

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I don't think High/Blood Elves as a neutral race can work since you would have to go back in time to the point where Rommath returned from Outland with Kael'thas his teachings on siphoning energy from living beings and then give the player the choice: to drain or not to drain. After that you would have to go forward in time again to play the current expansion.

The High/Blood Elf divide is not simply one of only allegiance. All currently playable Blood Elves drained mana from living beings (at least lorewise given their age) while High Elves wouldn't have done that.

Also as Void and Blood Elves show a model can be available on both factions without it representing an originally neutral race.

What? I said that eversong woods and ghostlands would be revamped, that includes the quests. That means it would take place in the present time, no need for time travel nonsense. The Silver covenant and void elves would be besieging Silvermoon to reconquer it while the Blood elves and Nightborne defend. The new Elf player would be caught in the middle and ultimately choose a side which best fits them at the end.

After that it doesn't matter as there are many time contradictions no matter what race you play.

[Ielenia]

Alliance high elfs (who are the same race as Blood elfs) would effectively make a core Horde race "neutral".

Do you even know what "neutral" means? I'm sorry, but the elves would not be neutral if high elves were added to the Alliance. What you're saying here is that post-WWII Germany was a "neutral" country because it was divided into West and East Germany.

[Varx]

Do you even know what "neutral" means? I'm sorry, but the elves would not be neutral if high elves were added to the Alliance. What you're saying here is that post-WWII Germany was a "neutral" country because it was divided into West and East Germany.

Why are you bringing real world nonsense in this? When someone says a race in WoW is "neutral" that simply means both factions would have access to it. Obviously Houjin Pandaren are not neutral or the Tushui. But for mechanical purposes the Pandaren race is neutral.

Carefully read my long post last page. You might disagree but Thalasian neutrality is probably the most reasonable way to implement High Elves than just adding them as a lame AR.