Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[Rasulis]

Republican are just blatantly evil people.

Iowa governor signs law allowing landlords to refuse Section 8 vouchers

Landlords rejecting Section 8 applicants are nothing new. The same with jurisdictions not granting permit for or communities protesting against Section 8 specific housing. However, those were all subtle discriminations hidden behind some lame NIMBY excuses. To have it codified in a State Law is new and took it to a different level of discrimination against low-income population.

[Cthulhu 2020]

"fuck bipartisanship, we don't need them!"

You've been repeatedly asked to demonstrate people saying this, and you keep ignoring those requests. You're literally the only person in here saying this. Put up or shut up. This is exactly why people say you're arguing in bad faith. You make a claim and don't back it up when asked to, then continue to make it.

"Hey guys, starlord is saying the sky is green!"
"Prove it"
"Hey guys, starlord is saying the sky is green!"
"Prove it"
"Hey guys, starlord is saying the sky is green!"
"Prove it"
"Hey guys, starlord is saying the sky is green!"
"Prove it"
"Hey guys, starlord is saying the sky is green!"
"Prove it"
"Hey guys, starlord is saying the sky is green!"

Do you even realize what you sound like?

[SirBeef]

You've been repeatedly asked to demonstrate people saying this, and you keep ignoring those requests. You're literally the only person in here saying this. Put up or shut up. This is exactly why people say you're arguing in bad faith. You make a claim and don't back it up when asked to, then continue to make it.

"Hey guys, starlord is saying the sky is green!"
"Prove it"
"Hey guys, starlord is saying the sky is green!"
"Prove it"
"Hey guys, starlord is saying the sky is green!"
"Prove it"
"Hey guys, starlord is saying the sky is green!"
"Prove it"
"Hey guys, starlord is saying the sky is green!"
"Prove it"
"Hey guys, starlord is saying the sky is green!"

Do you even realize what you sound like?

I've basically said it, since they have no intentions to bargain in good faith and want to hold the majority hostage with pearl clutching over bipartisanship. The same fuckwads that said when you are the majority you make the rules in response to the Dems request to be part of negotiations. So fuck them and fuck bipartisanship.

The last few pages of his strawmanning and refusal to even accept reality when he has been clearly shown, and his obliviousness that he his doing exactly what the GOP has been doing is rich. He has come to the discussion in bad faith with nothing substantial, just like the GOP has for decades. He refuses to listen to reason and facts, just like the GOP. He insists we need to listen/do what he believes, just like the GOP. Then tells us it's our problem, just like he blames the Dems.

The due is clearly a troll or a moron, take your pick. My money is on troll.

He also claimed he was bashing the lack of bipartisanship on the GOP side under trump. I'd like to see proof of that. I hardly recall this guy in any discussion during trump's term.

[Fahrenheit]

3-4 months in and I think Biden is doing a really good job.

[starlord]

You've been repeatedly asked to demonstrate people saying this, and you keep ignoring those requests. You're literally the only person in here saying this. Put up or shut up. This is exactly why people say you're arguing in bad faith. You make a claim and don't back it up when asked to, then continue to make it.

"Hey guys, starlord is saying the sky is green!"
"Prove it"
"Hey guys, starlord is saying the sky is green!"
"Prove it"
"Hey guys, starlord is saying the sky is green!"
"Prove it"
"Hey guys, starlord is saying the sky is green!"
"Prove it"
"Hey guys, starlord is saying the sky is green!"
"Prove it"
"Hey guys, starlord is saying the sky is green!"

Do you even realize what you sound like?

i didn't realize i'm supposed to prove what people say after i quote them directly saying it? if you think "dems should abandon bipartisanship to get things done, and strongarm legislation" as has been said so often means something... besides that then it seems like people are talking out of both sides of their mouth. thats literally (i even posted it straight from the source) the same rhetoric that was used by the gop that led to the rise of trump.

i don't think the dems completely have abandoned it yet, but its a bad thing for the country as a whole if they do and start acting like the GOP has. they have not completely yet, but there is a big push for them to and they are using it as a threat.

the breakdown and polarization of our country should not be celebrated because "my team might win this round."

people don't want to hear that thats the same road that has led the gop to their current state, because "we're the good guys" and anyone who says that maybe the "good guys" aren't doing the best thing is apparently a "bad faith troll" lol.
i am reminded of how i was called a "bad faith troll" on here for saying that i thought biden would win.
i posted a news article on how the dems are threatening to abandon bipartisanship in congress; is that a troll as well? lol.
its a thorny issue with no magic bullet solution, and i just think a degree of caution and perspective is necessary.

people keep calling it "an internal gop issue"... yet we're seeing a rise of "grassroots" candidates like marjory taylor greene. this ought to tell you that trumpism is something in the country at large, the GoP are just riding the wave. if it wasn't them, those same voters would just elect another party like them, which is why the focus on "they should fix it" is laughably misguided. sure maybe it started out "their problem", but its not anymore.
thats why we see biden stressing "bipartisanship... but with the electorate instead". he's trying to get through to the roots of the problem. the ones actually putting the scumbags in power. you can blame it all on gerrymandering and voter restrictions, but no one made the voters pick trump over, say, kasich.

anyways i think its pretty telling that this forum has largely become a circlejerk of late.

[Machismo]

i didn't realize i'm supposed to prove what people say after i quote them directly saying it? if you think "dems should abandon bipartisanship to get things done, and strongarm legislation" as has been said so often means something... besides that then it seems like people are talking out of both sides of their mouth. thats literally (i even posted it straight from the source) the same rhetoric that was used by the gop that led to the rise of trump.

i don't think the dems completely have abandoned it yet, but its a bad thing for the country as a whole if they do and start acting like the GOP has. they have not completely yet, but there is a big push for them to and they are using it as a threat.

the breakdown and polarization of our country should not be celebrated because "my team might win this round."

people don't want to hear that thats the same road that has led the gop to their current state, because "we're the good guys" and anyone who says that maybe the "good guys" aren't doing the best thing is apparently a "bad faith troll" lol.
i am reminded of how i was called a "bad faith troll" on here for saying that i thought biden would win.
i posted a news article on how the dems are threatening to abandon bipartisanship in congress; is that a troll as well? lol.
its a thorny issue with no magic bullet solution, and i just think a degree of caution and perspective is necessary.

people keep calling it "an internal gop issue"... yet we're seeing a rise of "grassroots" candidates like marjory taylor greene. this ought to tell you that trumpism is something in the country at large, the GoP are just riding the wave. if it wasn't them, those same voters would just elect another party like them, which is why the focus on "they should fix it" is laughably misguided. sure maybe it started out "their problem", but its not anymore.
thats why we see biden stressing "bipartisanship... but with the electorate instead". he's trying to get through to the roots of the problem. the ones actually putting the scumbags in power. you can blame it all on gerrymandering and voter restrictions, but no one made the voters pick trump over, say, kasich.

anyways i think its pretty telling that this forum has largely become a circlejerk of late.

Odd, I cannot see anyone saying what you claimed.

Is this the new Trumpster line?

[starlord]

Odd, I cannot see anyone saying what you claimed.

Is this the new Trumpster line?

pretty sure "what he actually meant was..." is the trump line.

[Machismo]

pretty sure "what he actually meant was..." is the trump line.

Once again, you are carrying water for the Trumpsters, and trying to make a living by building straw men.

It's a common strategy when your side (yeah, I fucking said it) isn't the one in power.

[starlord]

Once again, you are carrying water for the Trumpsters, and trying to make a living by building straw men.

It's a common strategy when your side (yeah, I fucking said it) isn't the one in power.

would you say i'm a DINO?

[Machismo]

would you say i'm a DINO?

No, I'm saying you're one of those people who love to pus the "both sides" argument, and pretend that this is the fault of the wrong people.

The things you claimed people said... they didn't say. Your straw men are not reality, they are your attempt to push a bullshit narrative.

[starlord]

No, I'm saying you're one of those people who love to pus the "both sides" argument, and pretend that this is the fault of the wrong people.

The things you claimed people said... they didn't say. Your straw men are not reality, they are your attempt to push a bullshit narrative.

The concept of "bipartisanship" basically died the moment the Tea Party was invited to the table with the adults. They've since morphed into Trumpsters, and they've metastasized to corrupt the entire party, to the point that the 2020 campaign didn't even have a platform, other than "We love Trump. We love Trump. We love Trump." There's maybe a handful of representatives on the Republican side who aren't fully corrupted by this groupthink, and the voters aren't much better.

"Bipartisanship" means you're trying to make policy that appeals to both parties. And when Republican policy for years has pretty much solely been about dismantling democracy, instituting and supporting systemic racism (not to mention inflaming outbursts of direct racism), and stonewalling literally any idea the Democrats come up with solely because of its support by Democrats, trying to find common ground is not defensible. The middle ground between "let's end racism" and "no, more racism" is "okay, racism". That "bipartisan" idea is "let's continue protecting and allowing racist abuses". That's a win for Republicans, not a "bipartisan" move.

Bipartisanship died because Republicans have become so extremist that the middle ground between the parties is extremist and toxic too.

So nothing will happen glad we agree, bipartisanship doesn't exist in congress. Frankly how do you negotiate with people who still support the guy who wanted to overthrow democracy.

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Yup until then it's just nice words people will forget

For Republicans, it is. They're irrelevant now, and Democrats should do everything they can to steamroll over them to deliver meaningful legislation that improves the effectiveness of the government, the lives of Americans, and places us on a stronger, more secure path for the future.

If Republicans want to jump on that train they're welcome to.

"what he meant was..."

[Machismo]

"what he meant was..."

Once again, that's showing that the problem with bipartisanship isn't on the side of the Democrats. You keep blaming the wrong fucking people (which shows exactly where you stand).

This is like blaming Jews for not wanting to sit at the table with Nazis, and saying they need to be more bipartisan. Once again, fuck that noise. The Dems are not under any obligation to fix the GOP. If the GOP gave a shit about bipartisanship, they wouldn't be censuring their own members for opposing traitorous asshats like Trump.

So, if the GOP ever decides they want to be bipartisan, they can come to the table in good faith. Let me know when that happens. Until then, they can sit and bitch to their little fascist supporters on the Sunday morning talk shows.

[Endus]

"what he meant was..."

If you're gonna dig up an older post of mine, take 30 fucking seconds to read it so you can understand that it directly and explicitly contradicts the position you're trying to claim it does. Same goes for Draco-Onis and Edge-, but I'll let them speak for themselves.

Your position is that Democrats are rejecting bipartisanship as a concept.

That's the straw man.

The posts you keep pointing to are talking about not wasting time and effort on bipartisan outreach while Republicans continue rejecting bipartisanship as a concept.

This isn't a "both sides" issue, no matter how much you twist to try and make it one.

Or, in more words, in an earlier post of mine you've clearly chosen not to read; https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53160799

[jonnysensible]

people still pretending the polarization is symmetrical

[starlord]

Once again, that's showing that the problem with bipartisanship isn't on the side of the Democrats.

This is like blaming Jews for not wanting to sit at the table with Nazis, and saying they need to be more bipartisan. Once again, fuck that noise. The Dems are not under any obligation to fix the GOP. If the GOP gave a shit about bipartisanship, they wouldn't be censuring their own members for opposing traitorous asshats like Trump.

So, if the GOP ever decides they want to be bipartisan, they can come to the table in good faith. Let me know when that happens. Until then, they can sit and bitch to their little fascist supporters on the Sunday morning talk shows.

hold on a second, isn't that strawmanning? i've never once blamed the dems for the repubs behavior. dems aren't the problem, they are part of the solution. which to their credit, efforts are being made.
since we're going with the nazi comparison, did america wait for the nazis to suddenly change their ways, give back those countries they invaded, and hope those indoctrinated by them will on their own decide to become good normal citizens again, or did they intervene?

so to go back to my conversation with fugus, is the ideal solution to wait for the alt right machine monster to suddenly come to it senses, say "gee guys actually we've been lying to you all along, also we're going to disband and disavow everything we've been pushing for the last ~40 years because we realize being racist assholes is bad", because "well its not MY fault things have gone to shit for everyone!"
apparently saying the dems can and should help the country be better, which bidens plan is a good way towards targeting, is "bad faith trolling."

- - - Updated - - -

If you're gonna dig up an older post of mine, take 30 fucking seconds to read it so you can understand that it directly and explicitly contradicts the position you're trying to claim it does. Same goes for Draco-Onis and Edge-, but I'll let them speak for themselves.

Your position is that Democrats are rejecting bipartisanship as a concept.

That's the straw man.

The posts you keep pointing to are talking about not wasting time and effort on bipartisan outreach while Republicans continue rejecting bipartisanship as a concept.

This isn't a "both sides" issue, no matter how much you twist to try and make it one.

Or, in more words, in an earlier post of mine you've clearly chosen not to read; https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53160799

what does "they should reject the practice of bipartisanship but not the concept" even mean in a country with 2 parties? who else are they gonna be bipartisan with?
repubs don't reject bipartisanship as a concept, as long as they get what they want right?
your entire argument is based off of semantics.

[Draco-Onis]

hold on a second, isn't that strawmanning? i've never once blamed the dems for the repubs behavior. dems aren't the problem, they are part of the solution. which to their credit, efforts are being made.
since we're going with the nazi comparison, did america wait for the nazis to suddenly change their ways, give back those countries they invaded, and hope those indoctrinated by them will on their own decide to become good normal citizens again, or did they intervene?

so to go back to my conversation with fugus, is the ideal solution to wait for the alt right machine monster to suddenly come to it senses, say "gee guys actually we've been lying to you all along, also we're going to disband and disavow everything we've been pushing for the last ~40 years because we realize being racist assholes is bad", because "well its not MY fault things have gone to shit for everyone!"
apparently saying the dems can and should help the country be better, which bidens plan is a good way towards targeting, is "bad faith trolling."

I think the disconnect is that we are not talking about the same things. The GOP base is unreachable due to right wing media, the only way for Trumpism to die is for it to turn on them. There is no chance of that happening, bipartisanship is something obsessed on by the press. The country doesn't care about how the sausage is made.

You are sounding like Manchin, I miss the old GOP but the new one there's no middle ground. The political parties in the US basically exist in two realities. In order for Biden to pass the plans to reach and maybe get some people he needs to steamroll the Republicans no way around it.

[Fugus]

people still pretending this polarization isn’t asymmetrical

Fixed that for you.

[starlord]

Fixed that for you.

it's not the same yet, which is why i've been saying "lets be very cautious about going down that same road."
i trust biden's judgement in this, but hes not the future of the party either.

I think the disconnect is that we are not talking about the same things. The GOP base is unreachable due to right wing media, the only way for Trumpism to die is for it to turn on them. There is no chance of that happening, bipartisanship is something obsessed on by the press. The country doesn't care about how the sausage is made.

You are sounding like Manchin, I miss the old GOP but the new one there's no middle ground. The political parties in the US basically exist in two realities. In order for Biden to pass the plans to reach and maybe get some people he needs to steamroll the Republicans no way around it.

yea its been hard to keep track of several different stuff going at once.
heres the thing; i know many people who voted for trump and generally vote conservative. its true some (especially that we see in the news stories etc) are unreachable, but many are not. they are simply rather amoral "chaotic or lawful neutral" people at heart and have a hard time empathizing outside their experience and don't like to think too hard. they vote for trump because "he will increase military spending and lower taxes". thats it.

what biden is doing with his plan is a very good maneuver to financially incentivize these types of people to support him.

this means there will be pressure on the GoP to act in a more bipartisan manner, as well as the threat of "if we pass it without you anyways and people love it you are going to take the hit".

well and good, but some things are better handled this way than others.

[Endus]

what does "they should reject the practice of bipartisanship but not the concept" even mean in a country with 2 parties? who else are they gonna be bipartisan with?

Is it that you seriously cannot grasp what people are actually saying, or are you being this dishonest on purpose?

There is no "rejection of bipartisanship", period. It's an understanding that attempting bipartisan efforts with a party that is opposed to any such thing is a waste of time.

If you're saying that Democrats should seek compromise with Republicans no matter what Republicans want, then I'm going to point out that your position is just appeasement in a new coat. The appropriate response to the Nazi Party saying "kill all Jews" when your party doesn't have a problem with Jews is not to say "how about we just kill SOME Jews? Is that acceptable to you, Mr. Nazis, sirs?"

Fuck. That. That's the abandonment of all principle.

repubs don't reject bipartisanship as a concept, as long as they get what they want right?
your entire argument is based off of semantics.

"Semantics" is also known as "what words/language actually mean". Yes; words mean things, and what people said means something, and you don't get to just ignore those semantics to insert whatever horseshit you wish they'd meant instead.

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heres the thing; i know many people who voted for trump and generally vote conservative. its true some (especially that we see in the news stories etc) are unreachable, but many are not. they are simply rather amoral "chaotic or lawful neutral" people at heart and have a hard time empathizing outside their experience and don't like to think too hard. they vote for trump because "he will increase military spending and lower taxes". thats it.

Historians have a word for people who supported the Nazi Party in their rise to power not because of any deep anti-semitism, but because of economic anxiety. Or fear of social disruption. Or desire for stronger policing. Or increasing Germany's political influence internationally. There's a word that fully describes those people.

That word is "Nazi". It doesn't matter why they supported the Nazis, only that they supported the Nazis.

Same applies here. If you're going to vote for Trump for stupid, indefensible reasons, that makes you as much a Trumpster as the mouth-frothing racist ranting about the oncoming "race war" and "blood for soil". You're trying to claim there's a significant difference, and I do not agree that there is any meaningful difference whatsoever. If you're willing to support horrible policymakers for some tepid goal, you still share in the responsibility for the actions of those you voted for, who are acting in your name.

[Elegiac]

they are simply rather amoral "chaotic or lawful neutral" people at heart and have a hard time empathizing outside their experience and don't like to think too hard. they vote for trump because "he will increase military spending and lower taxes". thats it.

Cool, they're still fascists.

If that label doesn't sit right with you or them, maybe they should think a little harder about their politics and why people call it ur-fascism.