Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Le Conceptuel]

"Aqir" is used to refer to a specific species of entities, the progenitors of the nerubians, mantid, and qiraji. In that sense, it's not really a catch-all or category name for Azeroth's various sentient insectoid races, and some true aqiri still exist today such as Zek'voz. Similarly, the Kaldorei (Night Elves) are the progenitors for the rest of the elven species who exist on Azeroth today - though, unlike the aqiri's many offshoots, there hasn't been a huge number of phenotype differences in the various elven extractions (save for the mutated Felblood, Fal'dorei, and the undead San'layn).

That's what I was arguing—my interlocutor seemed to think they were just groups of Aqir which took on new names with their new cultures, with their varying physiology only being the result of the preexisting dimorphism of the race. Your post puts what I was saying more eloquently, though.

The reason I was citing using "Aqir" to refer to a specific specimen was because I think that implicitly suggests what you were saying—if the Aqir were a vast classification, as opposed to a distinct predecessor race, it would be odd for Blizzard to label a particular breed with what my interlocutor stated was a blanket term for all of them.

[Nymrohd]

I don't really think DF is the "start of a new era", even if the devs implied it with what they said about the end of Arthas and the Jailer. It feels more like a prequel to the new era, which would start with something evergreen like a world revamp, with how the Horde and Alliance is now (basically swapped places with leadership styles) and how all the racial stories have been updated to a cliffhanger save for Night Elves, which looks to finish its build up in DF.

Like, it doesn't look like any racial story will matter besides Dracthyr and Night Elves in this expansion. Once those two stories conclude here, then it is the time to follow up on things like the Forsaken and the Scarlets.

I don't think that BFA or Dragonflight will be the mandatory first expansion for newcomers next expansion, but that there will actually be EK/Kalimdor content for leveling up. The fourth war and Sylvanas no longer really matter as we are now focusing on their effects.

I think that between professions and talents they are trying to build sturdy systems that they can actually iterate on and improve instead of completely new systems that slowly get to a good condition only to be voided by the next expac and maybe used as inspiration/salvaged for code. If they manage to get these systems to a good level that means that the following expansions can have a focus on content-facing systems (like Island Expeditions, Torghast or Warfronts) without having that shared by gameplay systems (like every iteration of borrowed power) with simple expansions of the new core. This should make it easier for them to build content-rich expansions in the future. And if they can strike another homerun like with M+, those systems can become core (I still think there is potential for solo/small group instanced content that actually works; the gameplay systems of Torghast with the variety and rewards of Islands).

[Khaza-R]

Feels like what? I mean what criteria is that to make it count as WoW 2, Legion brought world quests, mythic plus, revamped professions etc. and wasn't counted as WoW 2 either. I don't see how Dragonflight, which offers less major new stuff, could be seen as that. Dragonflight doesn't change the core gameplay at all, whereas Legion did. And Legion on top of that introduced us to a completely new world / planet with Argus.

If there was a "WoW 2" then it was Cataclysm since it really started the modernization of the game. Revamping the leveling system, adding masteries, stat normalization, itemization overhaul, adding class homogenization, etc. Not to mention the scrapped Path of the Titans system sounded an awful lot like the first iteration of a borrow power system. Overall it was a much more massive directional shift than anything in DF.

But even then, I don't think Cataclysm can qualify as WoW 2 anymore than Dragonflight could be called WoW 9. Nothing short of a whole new title should be considered as a genuine sequel at this point

[Le Conceptuel]

If there was a "WoW 2" then it was Cataclysm since it really started the modernization of the game. Revamping the leveling system, adding masteries, stat normalization, itemization overhaul, adding class homogenization, etc. Not to mention the scrapped Path of the Titans system sounded an awful lot like the first iteration of a borrow power system. Overall it was a much more massive directional shift than anything in DF.

But even then, I don't think Cataclysm can qualify as WoW 2 anymore than Dragonflight could be called WoW 9. Nothing short of a whole new title should be considered as a genuine sequel at this point

In this instance, we're talking less in senses of sequels and more in iterations—vast "eras" of the game.

I categorize them as:

Vanilla/TBC/WotLK—The original. These expansions were all tied together by a more open-world, RPG-type system. These expansions shared similar progression systems, environments, and design direction and consisted the three states of the game before the Cataclysm revamp, adding an extra level of commonality.

Cataclysm/MoP/WoD—This era was defined mostly by a raid-centric game design, a more streamlined but still open-world zone system, and a somewhat memey tone. This was an era of experimentation, in which we saw what I'd consider to be the most new meddling in the precursors to new systems scattered throughout each expansion. The new talent system was another example of a defining feature of this era.

Legion/BfA/Shadowlands—This era was defined mainly by a streamlined, very theme park-esque leveling experience, introduced the more "scattered" leveling system (though Shadowlands did later abandon this, retaining only elements), and also followed up a more narrative experience in the questing zones. World quests were, in my mind, the main feature of this era that will probably carry forward into the next.

Dragonflight/11.0/12.0—This era seems to be returning tone-wise to something more resembling Classic, though certain elements of the Cata/MoP/WoD era and Legion/BfA/Shadowlands era carry through—gameplay-wise, it is definitely starting a new era through the new talent system. It's too early to tell exactly how many of these features will be defining for the era, though, so I can't be sure what this will be.

Of course, this categorization system isn't perfect (for instance, the Mission Tables were introduced at the end of one era and abandoned before the end of another, but I think it's a good way of generally categorizing the periods of history in WoW. Of course, the game's evolution is a constant, ongoing process which happens outside of easily-allocated time periods, but it is something which I think can be generally categorized in some capacity.

[Cheezits]

DF feels like WoW 2.5. Or WoW 3 prepatch.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

DF feels like WoW 2.5. Or WoW 3 prepatch.

No it does not. The only thing this expansion has going for it is a new class. There's still much to be seen. Also, Steve isn't fired yet. It's funny how people forget this and then complain about the story quality.

[Lady Atia]

If there was a "WoW 2" then it was Cataclysm since it really started the modernization of the game. Revamping the leveling system, adding masteries, stat normalization, itemization overhaul, adding class homogenization, etc. Not to mention the scrapped Path of the Titans system sounded an awful lot like the first iteration of a borrow power system. Overall it was a much more massive directional shift than anything in DF.

But even then, I don't think Cataclysm can qualify as WoW 2 anymore than Dragonflight could be called WoW 9. Nothing short of a whole new title should be considered as a genuine sequel at this point

Well, Blizzard already said in interviews that they basically see each Expansion as "a new game". There will never be a "WoW2", nor should there be, besides the classic versions of the game.

- - - Updated - - -

No it does not. The only thing this expansion has going for it is a new class. There's still much to be seen. Also, Steve isn't fired yet. It's funny how people forget this and then complain about the story quality.

Steve was never the problem. Afrasiabi was.

[Sondrelk]

If there was a "WoW 2" then it was Cataclysm since it really started the modernization of the game. Revamping the leveling system, adding masteries, stat normalization, itemization overhaul, adding class homogenization, etc. Not to mention the scrapped Path of the Titans system sounded an awful lot like the first iteration of a borrow power system. Overall it was a much more massive directional shift than anything in DF.

But even then, I don't think Cataclysm can qualify as WoW 2 anymore than Dragonflight could be called WoW 9. Nothing short of a whole new title should be considered as a genuine sequel at this point

There really isn't any good point you can conclusively state a new era of WoW started. Cats was a big shakeup for sure, but as I mentioned before, WotLK is a vastly different kind of game to TBC, and MoP is vastly different to Cata.

It always tends to come down to players desperately trying to justify not being into the game anymore by setting arbitrary lines for when the game stopped being good.

[Cheezits]

Even if SL's overall story sucked, are people still mad about BFA when a lot of the critiques like "Sylvanas didn't get punished"/"Tyrande didn't do anything" ended up being untrue? The fact that Kul Tiras beat Zandalar is still really interesting to me and that status quo got rocked to its very core with several races improving from their Cata states overall.

I think the only race that came out of BFA/SL worse is Goblins, because replacing Gallywix misses the point entirely.

[Aucald]

That's what I was arguing—my interlocutor seemed to think they were just groups of Aqir which took on new names with their new cultures, with their varying physiology only being the result of the preexisting dimorphism of the race. Your post puts what I was saying more eloquently, though.

The reason I was citing using "Aqir" to refer to a specific specimen was because I think that implicitly suggests what you were saying—if the Aqir were a vast classification, as opposed to a distinct predecessor race, it would be odd for Blizzard to label a particular breed with what my interlocutor stated was a blanket term for all of them.

The confusion is a bit understandable on their part, as both the developers/writers and the idea of magic within the narrative play pretty fast and loose with the concepts of speciation as we understand them (not to mention the continual overlapping of species and races as designators for entirely different groups). The Aqiri themselves also show a pretty wide cross-sample of phenotypes that, if scientifically classified, would probably be different species as well: Aqir Reapers, Scarabs, a winged example without a distinct name, Goliaths, and Prophets all having wildly different structures and configurations. In that sense, it's possible that "Aqir" is a classification akin to some kind of genus or family group that share some traits but not others.

Suffice it to say, it's often confusing just how the developers themselves use and demonstrate the various terms.

[Cheezits]

"This is WoW 2 actually"

No. This is World of Warcraft's 9th expansion: Dragonflight.

We'll likely see more HD updates regarding the old world (maybe even a revamp) someday, but we'll not see a "WoW 2" in a VERY VEEEERRYYYY long time.

I see Cata as WoW 2 because it set the new status quo and the story of the Alliance/Horde with suddenly-evil-Garrosh and suddenly-evil-Sylvanas. We should get something similar soon enough.

An actual new game will never happen unless it manages to carry over all progress and items, which it won't.

[Cheezits]

That's not WoW2 then, that's just a change in the narrative for each faction after Arthas' death.

"WoW 2.0"? WoW Chapter 2? Stop arguing over semantics.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

If Turalyon gets power to do something weird with Stormwind it's 100% going to be based on the appearance of Yrel's Lightbound. This may even be caused by Lothraxion, which SL sets up as being a double agent and with the Nathrezim continuing on as a villain post Jailer will likely be a big character again.

That would work ya he’d need a large increase of men to actual do any thing and not get smacked down instantly and yrel would do the trick.

[Le Conceptuel]

The confusion is a bit understandable on their part, as both the developers/writers and the idea of magic within the narrative play pretty fast and loose with the concepts of speciation as we understand them (not to mention the continual overlapping of species and races as designators for entirely different groups). The Aqiri themselves also show a pretty wide cross-sample of phenotypes that, if scientifically classified, would probably be different species as well: Aqir Reapers, Scarabs, a winged example without a distinct name, Goliaths, and Prophets all having wildly different structures and configurations. In that sense, it's possible that "Aqir" is a classification akin to some kind of genus or family group that share some traits but not others.

Suffice it to say, it's often confusing just how the developers themselves use and demonstrate the various terms.

That's all quite fair and I think summarizes it better than I could. Given that Orcs and Humans could breed and produce fertile offspring, scientific classification would consider them the same species—trying to allot anything into any general order or species in WoW is usually not something you can do very easily.

[Cheezits]

That would work ya he’d need a large increase of men to actual do any thing and not get smacked down instantly and yrel would do the trick.

I expect the longterm Turalyon story to not be Lol Yellow Garrosh but a "temptation" arc with Yrel/Lothraxion/Scarlets/Xe'ra/Xe'ras Boss? trying to get him to go crazy with power and seeing him struggle with it, but eventually beat it. Maybe he'll save Yrel at the cost of his life? Who knows.

He's going to be the closest thing Alliance will ever have to Bad Warchief but I don't think it will be that simple. And I'm not sure he'll even take Stormwind because... it looks like it's getting beautified soon.

[Le Conceptuel]

I expect the longterm Turalyon story to not be Lol Yellow Garrosh but a "temptation" arc with Yrel/Lothraxion/Xe'ra/Xe'ras Boss? trying to get him to go crazy with power and seeing him struggle with it, but eventually beat it. Maybe he'll save Yrel at the cost of his life? Who knows.

He's going to be the closest thing Alliance will ever have to Bad Warchief but I don't think it will be that simple. And I'm not sure he'll even take Stormwind because... it looks like it's getting beautified soon.

I honestly hope it's not a "Yellow Garrosh" situation so much as a legitimate change in pace for the Alliance—we need more long-term changes to the factions. With the new identity of the Horde as a loose federation, it would be an interesting change of pace to see the Alliance return to its darker, more fanatical portrayal in the original RTS games through Vanilla. I hope Turalyon is a legitimate leader who won't simply be overthrown or turn evil, but will instead remain in charge of the Alliance and allow it to finally play a new role in the dynamic that's been set up.

It would also resolve the whole muddling of faction identity to add a more fanatical, dictatorial Alliance so that the change in identity of factions becomes less an "Alliance and Red Alliance" situation, but instead becomes a Hegelian sort of realignment where the Alliance take on some elements of the Horde and vice-versa whilst keeping their underlying themes.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Steve was never the problem. Afrasiabi was.

While Steve was never the whole of it he is absolutely still a big part of the problem, Alex might have driven them off the road but Steve seemingly went out of his way to hit every tree on the way to course correction.

[Cheezits]

It would also resolve the whole muddling of faction identity to add a more fanatical, dictatorial Alliance so that the change in identity of factions becomes less an "Alliance and Red Alliance" situation, but instead becomes a Hegelian sort of realignment where the Alliance take on some elements of the Horde and vice-versa whilst keeping their underlying themes.

That is 100% what is going to happen. The factions are swapping ideals and aesthetics on purpose. High King may have started as Blue Warchief but now it is the only warchief, and they know what they are doing.

However, unlike the Horde, I can't see any of the Alliance leaders actually going through with a Blue Warchief. So its either going to be a "Mindless NPCs like them LOL FUCK YOU PLAYERS" like Horde in BFA, or they may kick him out.

[Le Conceptuel]

That is 100% what is going to happen. The factions are swapping ideals and aesthetics on purpose. High King may have started as Blue Warchief but now it is the only warchief, and they know what they are doing.

I think this'll be a good thing, honestly. I recall that in WarCraft III, the Alliance was actually generally characterized not too dissimilarly from the direction of the Turalyon-led Alliance we're seeing now. The anti-Dragon racism is a little awkward, but it's at least the right spirit for a return to form and simultaneous realignment of certain traits.

[Lady Atia]

While Steve was never the whole of it he is absolutely still a big part of the problem, Alex might have driven them off the road but Steve seemingly went out of his way to hit every tree on the way to course correction.

Well I think he did a great job with that. BFA's biggest problems got corrected and Dragonflight already looks 10000 times better than whatever BfA was (which is a shame because BfA had soooo much potential ...). And I actually enjoyed everything from Shadowlands as soon as it was clear that we would get Sylvanas back.