Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[rogoth]

Fun fact: Humans are all the same "race."

so by extension the human 'race' being the same race, racism is not real and is just a fabricated construct?, following on from that nobody in this forum has posted anything racist because we are talking about human beings, is that what you're getting at here?

OT: having watched about 15 minutes of episode 1 i can tell you that the writing of this show is atrocious, not just the inter character back and forth, but the sheer leaps through time and space that occur, 'we had no word for death', yet throughout the first age you had the elves fighting the armies of Morgoth, the sacking of Angband, the war of wrath, the kinslaying, etc etc, there's no frame of reference given to time, and that's likely on purpose because if they tried to give a timeframe reference it would destroy the rest of their utterly bullshit dialogue, and don't even get me started on the whole elf troop marching through a blizzard, one falls obviously cold and exhausted, 'commander we must stop' - warrior princess barks back a 'NO', and then in the split second after the guy addresses her by her actual name she's all like 'sorry bro, lets rest up aight', and then for no fucking reason whatsoever the entire troop is somehow resoundingly beaten by a snow troll yet warrior princess and her boy toy spare part take it down in a single acrobatic show of nonesense, not to mention that all throughout this first section of the episode all the elves are speaking perfectly good english, then out of nowhere random words of quenya, why?, the entire part should have been filmed and recorded in quenya with english subtitles, it's so out of place it made me laugh, i couldn't watch past the dancing twirling mess that was supposed to be a major fight scene, if the rest is anything like this opening section then i can see this show dying a death in pretty quick order.

[Syegfryed]

So much wipe and money for this, what a disappointment

Of course people will say "wait and see" but come on, if you cannot hook up audience in the first or second episode, of a show that is supposed to happen in middle earth, something is going wrong with it

[Dhrizzle]

That's fine if it's assumed the peoples of middle earth had the genetic physiology of cats.

I don't assume the peoples of Middle-earth have any sort of genetic physiology, each body is crafted by Illuvatar to fit the spirit of his children.

[Dhrizzle]

And that's what makes her exceptional.

It wouldn't be a notable thing that she did if women warriors were merely ever-present in the rest of the world, and Riders of Rohan were the only culture that didn't allow their women into battle.

Eowyn does mention that shield-maidens were a more common sight in the history of the Rohirim, two houses of the Edain were said to have warrior women fighting and in his essay on the Laws and Customs Among the Eldar Tolkien notes that Elf women would fight at need and were capable warriors. Eowyn may have been exceptional in her time and place but she was not unique.

[s_bushido]

so by extension the human 'race' being the same race, racism is not real and is just a fabricated construct?

Something being a construct doesn't mean it's not real. Obviously.

The different human "races" are entirely social construct, and the bigotries that arise because of that are down almost entirely to our history and social interactions. Something the "races" of Middle-Earth aren't obligated to depict. A dark-skinned elf doesn't have to have any more significance to another elf than would one with black hair. If you wake up under the stars, and look around at the other people who have similarly just awoken for the first time...and you see that some have different hair color, and some have different skin color. That some are shorter, and some are taller. That shit is just going to be normal to you. And wouldn't necessarily inspire the same prejudices in them that millennia of human history has inspired in us (who weren't magically created and have had a very long time to come up with stupid-ass reasons to hate each other).

Which is something that I'm sure has been pointed out to the racists in this thread a dozen times in the past month or so. And yet here we are, going in that circle again, because you can't get the fuck over it.

all throughout this first section of the episode all the elves are speaking perfectly good english, then out of nowhere random words of quenya, why?

Struggling to think of a single fantasy/sci-fi show with established languages where this doesn't happen. Where characters will be speaking in English for the convenience of the audience, but occasionally use words in those languages. Considering Tolkien's languages have like a half-dozen words for every person/place/object/concept, the idea that they'd choose to use a different one for emphasis is the last thing anyone should be complaining about.

[Syegfryed]

Are we talking about people that decided several months ago that it would be shit in this or...? Including the dude above that is in that same camp and is already done after 15mins? lol

What do you mean? i mean, amazon and internet in general were creating a huge wipe for this, about how much money they were putting, how they would do something tolkien didn't, yada yada, like this would be the next GoT

and the last two eps were, just... meh, for a lack of better word.

[rogoth]

Something being a construct doesn't mean it's not real. Obviously.

The different human "races" are entirely social construct, and the bigotries that arise because of that are down almost entirely to our history and social interactions. Something the "races" of Middle-Earth aren't obligated to depict. A dark-skinned elf doesn't have to have any more significance to another elf than would one with black hair. If you wake up under the stars, and look around at the other people who have similarly just awoken for the first time...and you see that some have different hair color, and some have different skin color. That some are shorter, and some are taller. That shit is just going to be normal to you. And wouldn't necessarily inspire the same prejudices in them that millennia of human history has inspired in us (who weren't magically created and have had a very long time to come up with stupid-ass reasons to hate each other).

Which is something that I'm sure has been pointed out to the racists in this thread a dozen times in the past month or so. And yet here we are, going in that circle again, because you can't get the fuck over it.



Struggling to think of a single fantasy/sci-fi show with established languages where this doesn't happen. Where characters will be speaking in English for the convenience of the audience, but occasionally use words in those languages. Considering Tolkien's languages have like a half-dozen words for every person/place/object/concept, the idea that they'd choose to use a different one for emphasis is the last thing anyone should be complaining about.

you can count on 2 hands the number of lines of meaningful dialogue in the opening section, why wouldn't they use their native tongue when speaking among themselves, considering that at the time they were entirely isolationist and wouldn't have been in contact with anybody else, furthermore, the majority of sci-fi/fantasy shows that have a legitimate created language are so few and far between i can only think of 2, and in one of those there's plenty of scenes where the actors who play the different races always speak in their own tongue and have subtitles applied for the audience to follow along with, so i dunno where you get this notion that it's some unheard of thing.

that was just one clear example of the bad writing of this mess of a show, it barely scratches the surface of just how ridiculous it is as a whole, not to mention the sheer volume of retcons of the actual lore that occur, or that the majority of characters we see are all fabrications from Amazon, and the characters directly from the work of Tolkein have had their character/personality/mannerisms rewritten to be unrecognisable it's sickening really.

if you can say with complete honesty you like this and think it's top quality then i pity you, truly, because what i have seen thus far is nothing short of a school level performance with drama school levels of writing, nothing i have seen so far has said to me 'professional quality'.

[Dhrizzle]

Except that doesn't actually happen in the books, and was a creative liberty that Peter Jackson was heavily criticized for by Tolkien fans. I didn't give a damn because it was one scene in a film series where the weight of the world rest on the shoulders of men. Let her have a moment in it all, it didn't break the overall story and Eowyn isn't some feature character in the scope of Middle Earth. And her father was pretty upset that she disobeyed orders to return home after the gathering of the armies of men.

Eowyn in the books was far more bad ass than Peter Jackson's version. She called the Witch King names, laughed in his face when she revealed she was a woman at the start of the fight, lopped the fel beast's head off with a single stroke and when he struck her his mace carried enough force to shatter her shield and break her arm but was only drove her to her knees.

"begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace.!"

"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked by the Lidless Eye."

A sword rang as it was drawn. "Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."

"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"

Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed, and the clear voice was like the ring of steel. "But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Eowyn I am, Eomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him."

Still she did not blench: maiden of the Rohirrim, child of kings, slender but as a steel-blade, fair and terrible. A swift stroke she dealt, skilled and deadly. The outstretched neck she clove asunder, and the hewn head fell like a stone.

[rogoth]

Are we talking about people that decided several months ago that it would be shit in this or...? Including the dude above that is in that same camp and is already done after 15mins? lol

if you're going to talk about me at least quote me, don't do you usual passive aggressive bullshit, it's not big or clever, but then again you have not shown yourself to be particularly either so it's not really that surprising, and the fact you can't even acknowledge the criticisms being levied against this tripe speaks more than anything i could possibly hope for, so thank you for proving the points made months ago to be true, you have saved a lot of people time and energy.

[Dhrizzle]

Just finished the first two episodes. I'm hooked but I have one issue. That guy that fell from the sky is probably a wizard but no wizard stepped foot onto middle earth till the third age. I thought it might have been Sauron in disguise tbh. Condensing the timeline makes sense for tv though.

Tolkien did consider moving the Blue Wizards to the Second Age and giving them something to do. If it is a wizard (and I'll be sorely disappointed if it is Gandalf) it isn't totally out of whack with Tolkien's ideas.

[Adamas102]

so by extension the human 'race' being the same race, racism is not real and is just a fabricated construct?, following on from that nobody in this forum has posted anything racist because we are talking about human beings, is that what you're getting at here?

That’s like saying there’s no such thing as flat earthers just because the earth isn’t flat.

All humans are part of the same subspecies, hence all humans are technically the same race. Just because the outdated concepts of grouping people based on visible characteristics are flawed social constructs doesn’t mean there aren’t assholes that still use those ideas to marginalize and discriminate. I mean shit, how many imbeciles in this very thread still can’t seem to get past the idea that skin color and culture aren’t even the same thing.

[s_bushido]

you can count on 2 hands the number of lines of meaningful dialogue in the opening section, why wouldn't they use their native tongue when speaking among themselves

Because setting the precedent that the actors will speak exclusively in that language when it's only elves on screen talking to each other is incredibly stupid. Obviously.

that was just one clear example of the bad writing of this mess of a show

It was just one clear example of you desperately stretching for some reason to criticize the show for things that most other shows will do without anyone caring.

[Geckoo]

Finally watched it. It was not terrible, but not too good either. Not as good as expected considering the source material and budget, but certainly not 'the outpost' levels of a fantasy show. So essentially, something to watch and forget rather than something that keeps you engaged waiting for each episode and each new season.

The elves look bad, like a bunch of people larping with elaborate costumes, so they fail to deliver the mysticism expected from the elves and just look like humans dressing funny with weird ears. I can't say if this an issue with the casting or certain design choices, but i don't like them. The harfoots and the dwarves on the other hand? really cool and fun to watch. I have some other issues with writing but so far the way Galadriel is portrayed and played is the biggest one, did they make her unlikeable on purpose?

So basically, an average fantasy show with a little bit more of expensive flair, but ultimately average in acting and writing, so entertaining to watch, but not enough to keep me engaged.

[rogoth]

Because setting the precedent that the actors will speak exclusively in that language when it's only elves on screen talking to each other is incredibly stupid. Obviously.



It was just one clear example of you desperately stretching for some reason to criticize the show for things that most other shows will do without anyone caring.

it was after this scene that i stopped watching, because not only did the writing and words spoken by the on screen characters make no sense, the people in charge of this project clearly have no fucking clue what they are doing, not to mention that everything stated up to that point is pure fabrication and deviation and has nothing whatsoever to do with the established lore, Finrod was killed by a werewolf, he did not die in some mass huddle of orcs, the trees of valinor were destroyed by both Morgoth and Ungoliant where was that shown?, they showed some big shadow in the clouds to represent Morgoth that was it, nowhere in any of the books is it written that galadriel took up her brothers blade and sought vengeance in his name, nowhere in the books is it written that galadriel was unhappy at being exiled, in all of the written works i have read it states that she was happy and was embracing of the thought that she could find her own land and govern it in her own way, i have yet to see any hint of that in this shitshow.

please tell me more about how i'm 'desperate' to find faults when they are all front and fucking center, please explain to me where it's written in ANY text that can back up what has been shown so far, because to my knowledge, none exists.

- - - Updated - - -

This is a lot of nonsense to try and defend yourself from feeling slighted by trying to attack my intelligence. People like you get back what you put in, and the truth of the matter is that you don't warrant much in return.

There was no need to directly quote you in my reply to someone else.

I have acknowledged what I consider to be problems with the first 2 episodes. I may not have covered everything because I was playing on my phone, but I'm just less of a hateful pedant that seems to think the written word of an author is gospel and should never be deviated from, even if those words have large holes that accommodate changes/new information. What you consider to be the issues in your entire 15 minutes of viewing will clearly differ from my 2 hours of viewing.

I'm also not dead set on hating a TV series in the first place, so I have that going for me.

I'll give the same advice to you that other people who clearly didn't enjoy this get; move on.

sure thing buttercup, no worries, i'll leave you to your echo chamber of 'oh this is great' or 'this is so brave and powerful' or how about the whole 'stunning, simply astonishing how they have achieved this divine work', since you still seem incapable of seeing the flaws that are glaring and obvious to millions of others, i suggest you step back and question if what you're looking at is actually real or if it's just delusion because that's the only conclusion i can come to regarding your vapid defense of this project.

[rogoth]

Millions! Gotta get the ol' argumentum ad populum in there. I'd love to see the numbers on that.

Not sure where I said anything about being brave or divine, though. Sounds like more created nonsense to try and make an argument because someone feels attacked. You seem quite fragile, which is understandable based on this thread, I suppose.

Maybe you could throw in a "kid" next time lol That'll strengthen any argument you have, for sure.

Again, though, I've already mentioned any issues I had. Maybe not all of them, but some are in here somewhere.

But please do take that advice, "buttercup." Nobody is looking for an echo chamber, but I certainly don't think you have anything of value to say after 15 minutes of viewing and months of conplaining.

once again providing your obtuse world view, feel free to go and look at the numbers yourself, nobody is stopping you, you can see very clearly that every single piece of media surrounding this mess has been disliked and summarily shown to be the dumpster fire that it was projected to be from the start.

who said i was quoting you?, i certainly didn't, i provided quotes from some of the 10/10 reviews that are clearly review bombing this shit in the wrong direction, very narcissistic of you to think it was all about you.

i'm far from fragile, in fact i'm the complete opposite, i would tell you in person the self same thing i have told you now on multiple occasions, i'm not afraid to speak my mind and as such it could be viewed as a character flaw or a benefit depending on viewpoint, but suffice to say i'm not some scared little kid who can't stand my little 'fee fee's' getting hurt like you are your ilk, who this show seems to want to pander to at all costs.

just because that's something you would do does not mean that's something everyone else would do, but keep up your sanctimonious bullshit, i'm sure it'll strengthen any arguement you have right?

except you are looking for an echo chamber, you have consistently told me and others who share similar views to me to 'move on', if everyone who has rightfully criticised this utter shitstorm of a show leaves it alone all that's left is you and the hivemind morons like you who think it's the second coming of Christ and it has no flaws to speak of, which is the EXACT DEFINITION OF AN ECHO CHAMBER, or does it mean something else in freedom land?

[bledgor]

once again providing your obtuse world view, feel free to go and look at the numbers yourself, nobody is stopping you, you can see very clearly that every single piece of media surrounding this mess has been disliked and summarily shown to be the dumpster fire that it was projected to be from the start.

who said i was quoting you?, i certainly didn't, i provided quotes from some of the 10/10 reviews that are clearly review bombing this shit in the wrong direction, very narcissistic of you to think it was all about you.

i'm far from fragile, in fact i'm the complete opposite, i would tell you in person the self same thing i have told you now on multiple occasions, i'm not afraid to speak my mind and as such it could be viewed as a character flaw or a benefit depending on viewpoint, but suffice to say i'm not some scared little kid who can't stand my little 'fee fee's' getting hurt like you are your ilk, who this show seems to want to pander to at all costs.

just because that's something you would do does not mean that's something everyone else would do, but keep up your sanctimonious bullshit, i'm sure it'll strengthen any arguement you have right?

except you are looking for an echo chamber, you have consistently told me and others who share similar views to me to 'move on', if everyone who has rightfully criticised this utter shitstorm of a show leaves it alone all that's left is you and the hivemind morons like you who think it's the second coming of Christ and it has no flaws to speak of, which is the EXACT DEFINITION OF AN ECHO CHAMBER, or does it mean something else in freedom land?

Unified does nothing but attack people and called them ists and phobes, you can go through his posts and see he will make 1 comment on the topic at hand every dozen or so posts MAYBE. Just ignore him and his baiting and talk the topic.

Also can we again focus on the fucking terrible sense of time/teleportation that goes on in the show? Like the only reference of time usuable is the meteor/meteor man coming down, other than that people teleport to and from locations (Galadriel + troops, Galadriel + troops on ship, Galadriel at sea?, Elrond, then Elrond + Celebrimbor) all while the Harfoots spend like a day doing things, and Arondir + the southern men plot goes through what, a couple of days doing various things? Like I get the Elven story is separated right now, but it is given me whiplash following travels that would take months while also watching days pass for two other groups.

Also this shit made me laugh, like you spend a billion dollars between purchasing and producing and this is what we get? Bruh come on.

[Valdhammer]

I absolutely hate that the show runners now have an excuse for the poor reviews “Oh people just don’t like the ‘diversity’”.

That’s the fuckin least of the show’s problems. It is atrociously written, directed, and acted but sure it’s the diversity people don’t like.

[Gumble]

I absolutely hate that the show runners now have an excuse for the poor reviews “Oh people just don’t like the ‘diversity’”.

That’s the fuckin least of the show’s problems. It is atrociously written, directed, and acted but sure it’s the diversity people don’t like.

They NOW have an excuse????

Dude.... really..... seriously?

That's why they put the diversity in.


That's basically the reason everyone is upset.

[InfiniteCharger]

Unified does nothing but attack people and called them ists and phobes, you can go through his posts and see he will make 1 comment on the topic at hand every dozen or so posts MAYBE. Just ignore him and his baiting and talk the topic.

Also can we again focus on the fucking terrible sense of time/teleportation that goes on in the show? Like the only reference of time usuable is the meteor/meteor man coming down, other than that people teleport to and from locations (Galadriel + troops, Galadriel + troops on ship, Galadriel at sea?, Elrond, then Elrond + Celebrimbor) all while the Harfoots spend like a day doing things, and Arondir + the southern men plot goes through what, a couple of days doing various things? Like I get the Elven story is separated right now, but it is given me whiplash following travels that would take months while also watching days pass for two other groups.



Also this shit made me laugh, like you spend a billion dollars between purchasing and producing and this is what we get? Bruh come on.

Its Amazon's Time Compression© story telling. They don't need to show how long things take as that would screw up their story.

The worst thing I noticed lately is that all those CGI shots of Numenor have big bridges to nowhere and houses in the side of cliffs.
Like WTF kind of city design is that? Look closely at some of those shots and you will see literal bridges that end in sheer cliff faces.
Not to mention the boats don't even look like they will fit underneath the bridges, while trying to make it seem they are so grand and massive.
Its ridiculous.


Next up is Numenor.

Keep in mind that there is no real agency for Galadriel in any of this. She just randomly gets bullied (why) then randomly is the only one who knows of Sauron (why) and randomly swims in the open ocean to be rescued on a raft and then randomly gets washed up at Numenor. So brave and stunning. Everything just moves along due to random events.

[Valdhammer]

They NOW have an excuse????

Dude.... really..... seriously?

That's why they put the diversity in.


That's basically the reason everyone is upset.

I don’t know that I agree with that. I think they decided to diversify the world because it’s 2022 and it actually makes sense to do that.

But they then did a huge disservice to everybody by not spending enough of that $1bn budget on proper writers, actors, and directors.