[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Kazgrel]

No down time to chat in Eureka? I must’ve been doing it wrong, then, because random memes and bullshitting is what kept me awake when I was a low level resbot.

No leash + danger noodles = lulz

[Granyala]

Eureka isn't old school enough to unite. The fact that leashes exist, even if they're longer, makes that a factor. To me, Eureka should have been more old school, more dangerous, slower to get through (no leashes at all would mean you can't just run through mobs to get to a NM), and encourage a little more camping and socializing.

Yes make content even MORE tedious and boring and even more solo unfriendly when peeps are already so exstatic about late comers that are low level...

Dear Lord we played these game because we didn't know better. Nowadays we do know better, expect more and look at this ancient "design" and ask ourselves "How could I have fun with that?!"

What we need are DEVs that put in actual effort and deliver FUN and entertainment. Not more tedium to slog through to get to [arbitrary player power reward].

[lawow74]

Whereas I take the opposite tack, it wasn't Hunts/Diadem enough. I never had a problem with Diadem as a content model (the EM's were bullshit, but I didn't really care about it anyways), it just had no rewards worth it outside maybe some toys. If it had been useful for leveling or capping Tomestones (really useful, kinda like how Eureka's actually pretty good for that too) it might've lived a while longer.

To me, the great thing about FF 14 is the inclusion of options, and a general sense of accessibility to those options. They don't make their PvP this horrible slog with a power grind to be able to compete, for example. You step in, you 100% have the same abilities and options as everyone else, all you need then is skill and teamwork. Eureka is actually WORSE than PvP in that regard. You're basically useless at anything but the lowest-level NM's, especially as more and more people push high levels. The only way you can contribute is, as has been said, playing healer/resbot.

So the solution is NOT 'make it even harder to get into and complete'. It's 'make everyone fucking equal from the get-go'. The Mission-style content of Diadem would provide an alternative to 'follow the Hunt train' and would actually let you (GASP!) SOLO some shit, which is basically suicidal if you attempt it past 6 since you risk losing XP.

[Kazgrel]

Yes make content even MORE tedious and boring and even more solo unfriendly when peeps are already so exstatic about late comers that are low level...

Dear Lord we played these game because we didn't know better. Nowadays we do know better, expect more and look at this ancient "design" and ask ourselves "How could I have fun with that?!"

What we need are DEVs that put in actual effort and deliver FUN and entertainment. Not more tedium to slog through to get to [arbitrary player power reward].

The post you quoted and your reply are the answer: Fun is absolutely subjective.

I think Eureka is a decent platform to build from. Notable area of needing improvement is the low level experience; until I hit 9 and was able to port around, it sucked ass. At the same time...I can see how the low level problems can be written off as an issue where people simply want to keep up with the Joneses so it leads to our single minded focus on finding the fastest, most efficient way of completing the grind. I’m still inclined to call the low level experience an area in need of improvement, though.

Not trying to hand wave your frustration. I was contemplating just saying to hell with the place when I was level 6-7. None of the gear from it is a huge improvement for me, so it was “how bad do I want glamour shit?”. Fortunately, things have gotten much better as I’ve leveled.

[Faroth]

Yes make content even MORE tedious and boring and even more solo unfriendly when peeps are already so exstatic about late comers that are low level...

Dear Lord we played these game because we didn't know better. Nowadays we do know better, expect more and look at this ancient "design" and ask ourselves "How could I have fun with that?!"

What we need are DEVs that put in actual effort and deliver FUN and entertainment. Not more tedium to slog through to get to [arbitrary player power reward].

I'm aware I'm an old curmudgeon and that any momentary pause in constant stimulation is not what's desired in modern gaming. But why is having ONE small slice of the whole of the pie different a bad thing? You're not required to do it, so why can't one thing be a throw back to see how that works? Why is a Massively Multiplayer genre now designed near exclusively around a single player approachability? FFXI and EQ still have a moderate population years after the solo-queue-daily-quota design was thriving.

And do we really know better? Logging in to do our daily assigned tasks as if they were a job, but we're paying the employer for the privilege of doing them? Acting as if we're not doing just as much of a daily grind as we ever did but telling ourselves it's so much more sophisticated now.

Nothing in WoW or XIV has ever met the thrill of the total fustercluck of having everything go to hell and a whole dungeon charging your group and managing to somehow survive the escape. It's a commonly cited problem with the theme park MMO - they don't feel dangerous. What people really mean is the world isn't exciting because everything is safe. It's largely safe because every class has to be able to solo everything.

Leashes guaranteeing safety, strict zone levels, safe roads, instances guaranteeing a brief experience to trigger that reward sensation. No risk, all rewards. Is that really better?

Ah well. At least I got a house so I can yell for kids to get off my digital lawn.

[lawow74]

Why is a Massively Multiplayer genre now designed near exclusively around a single player approachability? FFXI and EQ still have a moderate population years after the solo-queue-daily-quota design was thriving.

Because they had the opportunity to build a fanbase against older styles of design and had established IP's that got them that initial 'in'. Yeah, they still have their enthusiasts. Just like you still have cartage enthusiasts, and even in some areas they see daily use (like the Amish communities). But they have been replaced by designs that are more convenient, more desireable, and frankly just better.

You see highways full of automobiles, not carts. Because as fun as they are to ride in for some, unless you are just a creature of conviction, most of us have lives and want to get things done. And I know that sounds odd when we're talking about a game, but you saw the same thing with WoW. 'I don't have time to do x, I have a life/wife/job/kids now'.

And do we really know better? Logging in to do our daily assigned tasks as if they were a job, but we're paying the employer for the privilege of doing them? Acting as if we're not doing just as much of a daily grind as we ever did but telling ourselves it's so much more sophisticated now.

Different style of grind. Yours was a massive timesink given to you in a huge lump that you went through according to your pace. Someone might no-life it in a week. Someone else would get there after a couple months. Now, we have a smaller timesink, but you're gated in how fast you can go through it, see daily and weekly tasks. Accessibility.

Ultimately, it's the same bottom line: no one's going to take the financial risk of making a TRULY old-school MMO again and watch it (very likely) tank in a shrinking market against newer, faster MMO's. Just like someone would be crazy to try and create a luxury cruise line out of riding in a zeppelin when they have to compete with airplane services.

[Graeham]

I actually wouldn't mind the risk of enemies being pulled into groups if they dropped something of note. I have fond memories of playing an old school MMO back in high school that a few people in my class introduced me to. In it, enemies could be lured anywhere and so low level players passing through the wilderness could risk being killed in a single hit. Enemies could even fall down holes and stack, creating a deathtrap.

To mitigate this, I created a 'police force' of high level players to deal with reports of it happening...and killed those responsible for doing it if we found them. More than once, karma blessed me with rare loot from both the lured enemies and players.

Yet those days are gone and enemies being lured onto low level players are just a nuisance for everybody. There's no reward.

[Kazgrel]

On the solo-friendliness note...I suspect that’s to keep folks logged on and hanging around with something they can do while they wait for friends to log in.

One of the “old school” elements that I think works well here is the xp/level loss. Yes, I’ve lost xp already, and while it irritated me at the time, it also reminded me to be keenly aware of what all was going on around me. It’s the closest thing we can get to a “hardcore mode” in an MMO (think Diablo or other ARPGs where if you die, you’re done). I won’t advocate having that in the game as a whole, but a subset of the game like this is fine.

[Eleccybubb]

Well hit level 13 and got my +2 RDM weapon at least. Just got to grind those last 6 out so I can get Zuzu feathers.

Also new pc runs this like a dream. Get crashes in fullscreen if I tab out but Borderless Windowed fixed it.

[threads]

I hit 20 and think it's one of the best things they've added in awhile. The grind was meh but it forced everyone to be social and cooperate. Seeing hundreds of people taking down NMs, the chat memes, and the rez mages not leaving anyone behind. It actually made the game feel like a MMO again. Definitely beats grinding the 1 highest tomestone dungeon like the last relic.

[Granyala]

Why is a Massively Multiplayer genre now designed near exclusively around a single player approachability?

I never said that. As you well know I am against a solo focus in MMOs.

Only problem is: you need to think about how the content will be a month from now when most of us have moved on. SE obviously did not think it through.

Well Eureka was good for one thing at least:


- - - Updated - - -

I hit 20 and think it's one of the best things they've added in awhile. The grind was meh but it forced everyone to be social and cooperate. Seeing hundreds of people taking down NMs, the chat memes, and the rez mages not leaving anyone behind. It actually made the game feel like a MMO again. Definitely beats grinding the 1 highest tomestone dungeon like the last relic.

It was only fun for me because my friends took me along. The content itself literally didn't factor into it.

[lawow74]

I enjoy Eureka as long as I can get to and spawn the NM's without much trouble. When you end up bogged down trying to get one to pop, whether you're actively helping or not, it gets BORING. And it's gonna be hard on those who didn't get on in there and level up now while it's still fresh, as without the zerg to carry you along, you'll be much more limited in what NM's you can reach and spawn, making it take even longer to get done when numbers flag.

[Wrecktangle]

I'm aware I'm an old curmudgeon and that any momentary pause in constant stimulation is not what's desired in modern gaming. But why is having ONE small slice of the whole of the pie different a bad thing? You're not required to do it, so why can't one thing be a throw back to see how that works?

Here's my POV: I don't think pure action is good (and I'm a similarly old curmudgeon like yourself). There need to be breaks. It's why I don't grind anything more than a handful of times and it's why I choose to only raid 4 hours a week (working on god kefka enrage atm). I'd likely burn out with anything more.

My overarching issue with Eureka is a more broad thing (I have a plethora of actual issues with the content, but I'll spare you all from that): It's that I was hoping to have something enjoyable to do that offered a modicum of scalability or challenge or even depth/new features, but unfortunately Eureka offered none of that.

I'm exceptionally likely to quit once we clear God Kefka and farm it like 2-3 weeks because there just simply any enjoyable content left I can participate in. You say "one small slice of pie", but the entire game fits the paradigm that Eureka employs. I understand that I am probably a minority (forums seemingly suggest otherwise, but I'm not naive) and that not all content is for me, but please, I'd love some more other than EX's that are relevant for a week and 4 bosses every 6 months...2 of which are loot pinatas.

Nothing in WoW or XIV has ever met the thrill of the total fustercluck of having everything go to hell and a whole dungeon charging your group and managing to somehow survive the escape. It's a commonly cited problem with the theme park MMO - they don't feel dangerous. What people really mean is the world isn't exciting because everything is safe. It's largely safe because every class has to be able to solo everything.

That's not true. I've said this before. While I understand you don't have the same experience I have to qualify it, I've done high mythic + keys (20+) and those things are ass-puckering at times. The amount of survival by skin of the teeth moments we've had are insane. I know you've never participated it in and that sucks, because I'd take you just so you can experience it.

I stand by my statement before. In over a decade+ of playing MMO's, Mythic + has by far been the most exciting and engaging addition I've ever experienced.

A quick segue to WoW real quick:

I look at BfA and I keep seeing things I like. New things...

Opt in CRZ open world PVP and it rewards you for opting in to more danger? Check.
Procedurally generated "instances" that have advanced mob AI and randomly designed objectives? Check.
Gearing improvements and freedom? Check.

and that's not even counting the things that I already like, like M+ and raids. Now I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it looks like it's shaping up nicely.

I mean, looking at SB's feature list it's either new paint, QoL updates (wards, role skills, inventory/furnishings, etc.) and dear god, swimming... Now I'm not saying FF14 hasn't made updates and changes that aren't good, but they're just so "safe" and uninspired...

[Faroth]

You say "one small slice of pie", but the entire game fits the paradigm that Eureka employs.

That's what I meant - I don't see the problem with Eureka being a full blown FFXI throw back to set it apart and make it wholly different from the rest of the game. Like I said, I feel it didn't go far enough in recreating that old school sense of exploration and danger and it becomes a little too samey to the rest of the game's design (noting Hunts and FATE train comparisons specifically).

My friend did have fun with a buddy of his duo'ing at low levels yesterday, then joined by an AST. With just 3 it was a bit of a challenge to build up chains, so it made it fun. He said shouts were amicable as people were just cutting up and having fun (his favorite was "Guys I'm level 9 and got myself stuck surrounded by level 20 mobs.......hold me.").

That's not true. I've said this before. While I understand you don't have the same experience I have to qualify it, I've done high mythic + keys (20+) and those things are ass-puckering at times.

Ah, yes, I've not done the high level mythic key runs. I want to say 5+ was what I was most commonly seeing in the search function when I quit my last stint in Legion. and I never did more than the first Mythic run, so that's fair! I would have enjoyed exploring those more, but my old guild is practically dissolved and none of my friends play WoW at all anymore. Alas...

I mean, looking at SB's feature list it's either new paint, QoL updates (wards, role skills, inventory/furnishings, etc.) and dear god, swimming... Now I'm not saying FF14 hasn't made updates and changes that aren't good, but they're just so "safe" and uninspired...

Even I'm starting to agree that I felt Stormblood started off well, but it's feeling less inspired as it's carried on. It's possible FFXIV may eventually become similar to WoW for me - primarily just play for MSQ. That's not entirely a bad thing... my single player backlog is utterly ridiculous.

Maybe if I break away from MMOs I will tackle some of those PS2 & PS3 RPGs you've recommended.

[Graeham]

Heavensward was plagued by a stale period, too. The wait for 3.1 was about five months and the patch itself was fairly bare bones. Stormblood...has improved on that but I do question the lack of shaking things up. Sadly, Yoshi-P seems intent on doing things a specific way and I strongly disagree with his stance that MMO's are a 'dying breed'. I feel like he's passionate about games but he's also a shrewd businessman...and the latter aspect makes him stick to the model that works to ensure maximum profit.

Now, FFXIV is my favoured MMO of choice these days. I've invested quite a bit of time and money into it. I enjoy it. Yet I felt that way about WoW once. Slowly but surely, some of Blizzard's decisions caused me to lose interest. My interest is wavering at times with FFXIV, simply because of the stagnation, the poor state of PvP and the disparity between male and female glamour options.

My partner feels much the same way, though we still enjoy the game enough to stick around and friends are a great incentive to do so as well. I just really hope 5.0 and the lead up to 5.0 is bolder than both 3.0 and 4.0.

[Faroth]

Well if XIV has the same life as XI, we've got 9 more years ahead. That would be 1 year til 5.0 and then 4 more expansions after that.

Based on past comments by Yoshida, I know there's some speculation out there that he may only remain on XIV as Director/Producer through the end of the Garlemald/Ascian story and then hand the reins over to someone else. It feels like 5.0 will be the Garlemald expansion.

With the success he's had turning XIV around, and his comments that he's already overseeing more than just XIV, I'm sure Square sees a broader scope position for him in the future. FFXI had about 5 directors in its lifetime.

Conceptually, that could be interesting. Yoshida comes in with a grand overarching story from 2.0 through 5.0, but towards the end they bring another director in with a vision for 6.0 through 9.0, which would be a point to potentially shake things up design wise.

If you're still doing well to keep the game in new content development, bring yet another new director in with a story in mind for 10.0 - 12.0 with another shake up design-wise.

You'd wind up with an MMO that can be defined by different story arcs as well as different designs within those story arcs.

Granted, you don't depart too wildly or you alienate your player base, but you get what I mean, I think.

[lawow74]

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Eureka lvl 16, got my +2 weapon and all my +2 armor for BRD, so I'm done milling Anemos Crystals, at least.

[Granyala]

You still need Pazuzu Feathers.
I finally got lv 17, no more walking!

[lawow74]

I'm not worried about Pazuzu Feathers, that's one gold kill and done. I get to 19 and that shouldn't be a problem. Same with the 750 Anemos needed for the Anemos Armor. I do look forward to 17, though, and being able to ride again.

Also, I learned today you can deactivate the Unique/Untradeable window under Character Settings -> Item Settings -> Shop Settings, so that's useful at least. Will make the next Lockstravaganza easier to dispose of.

[Eleccybubb]

Close to 19 now thank god.

Turns out my 1200 Anemos were enough for the Proteans needed to get my +2 armor. And had 450 Anemos left over so I might just farm the armor after all

Just need zuzu feathers now for shiny rapier.

Least I got T-Rex and Barding now along with the cowboy looking set so I'm done with lockboxes until the firework drop is reduced. Although why they don't just outright remove it is beyond me.