Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Obelisk Kai]

8.3 is confirmed as the final patch of battle for azeroth with no 8.3.5 closing things out, meaning the hypothetical final pair of BFA Allied races has been debunked and the allied race cycle has finally closed.

Allied races will come in the future, but they will be deployed at a cadence far, far slower than what we have become accustomed to these past few years as the developers do not want allied races to be expected, nor do they wish to overburden the two main factions with so many options that they lose their identity under the weight of choice.

And of course that fact is pertinent to this debate because common sense dictates that if the opportunities for additions are rare then they are incredibly unlikely to spend a valuable opportunity that may come once every two or four years on a duplicate of an existing race.

Thanks for proving my point why it's a precedent. Both those instances happened, Blizzard previously saying "no" in the past, but then eventually changing their minds later on.

That Blizzard can change their minds is a given that nobody contests. However, there seems to be a sense among the pro High Elf community that 'can' change their minds is actually 'will' change their minds, provided sufficient pressure is exerted. As thing stand, they have maintained their position on playable alliance high elves for going on fifteen years meaning it is one of their longest hold positions on the game.

No. Neutrality means neutrality. The pandaren are neutral because:
• Their race as a whole is neutral;
• They have the same racials;
• They have the same starting zone;
• They have the same everything.

As stated, when terming the Pandaren 'neutral' in the context of this discussion it is in relation to faction composition and means the same race is available to both Alliance in Horde. This is the definition used by Blizzard themselves, even on their own website as linked in an earlier post.

The majority of the Pandaren are neutral, but they are not a part of the Alliance or the Horde either but simple inhabitants of Pandaria or the Wandering Isle. The Tushui and Huojin are however partisan factions that are not neutral in the wider sense of the word.

High elves, other than also being Thalassian elves, would not be neutral, because the whole Thalassian race is not neutral, they would not have the same racials, starting zone, etc.

In terms of faction composition, granting an exact duplicate of a horde race to the Alliance is making that race neutral, just as the Pandaren are neutral in that context.
Assuming any future race will get a new starting zone is a brave assumption given one of the advantages of allied races was not needing to construct a starting zone. The new starting zone in Stormheim means any new race, whether core or allied, will not require a starting zone.

Completely irrelevant. If Blizzard changes their mind and implement high elves, it'll also be for "unique reasons", so yours is a moot argument to have.

Which will be a unique situation. That there are previous situations where they did change their minds is irrelevant to them changing their minds on the exiles as the questions posed by this debate are entirely unique to it. Classic after all did not call into question the importance of maintaining unique and diverse and rosters for the two mutually antagonistic factions.

Are you baiting? This is bait, isn't it? Because I've told you many times that the race we want to play is in the Alliance, not the Horde.

It is not bait, in the name of faction diversity only one representative group of each race (with the exception of the Pandaren) has been selected as avatars for players.. For the high elves and the high elf fantasy, the selected group is the Blood Elves. Blood Elves are high elves and the fantasy of playing a high elf is thus available.

In other words, an useless arbitrary restriction, created by you. Glad we cleared that up.

Again, the population issue is not the real barrier to why they were not selected. It is part of the rationale, but not the whole story. The exiles were not selected because the high elf race is represented by Blood Elves and are a part of the Horde faction. Granting that option to the Alliance unaltered undermines the divisions between the faction, the integrity of the Horde and the identity of the Blood Elves. Were the high elves to be thriving, powerful and numerous, players would be a lot less willing to tolerate their exclusion as an alliance option despite the strength of the gameplay rationale. Their weakness in lore reinforces the gameplay reasoning to deny adding them.

Yes, I can, because they are.

That seems to be a foolhardy attitude . A developer opinion is vastly more meaningful than a fan opinion and they are not equivalent. For example, some fans would have liked high elves as an allied race, the developers disagreed and it didn't happen.

Except it doesn't. Not a single bit. The high elves choosing to no longer follow Kael'Thas does not mean Kael'Thas abdicated from the throne.

You seem to be deliberately missing the point that someone 'effectively' doing something does not mean someone 'literally' did it, in fact the use of the word effectively is meant to convey their actions had the same effect as if they literally did it. Kael 'effectively' abdicated because he betrayed his people by allying with the legion, his new position completely at odds with his responsibilities as prince.

Oh yeah, the most different, by a margin of... 0.1%.

Which is an arbitrary quantification meant to convey your personal feelings that they were barely differentiated. Which again begs the question, if you consider Void Elves to be so close to Blood/high elves as to be almost indistinguishable, then the Alliance has high elves. If you are rejecting void elves, then something about void elves is unacceptable. That unacceptable quality is inevitably going to be the level of difference between a void elf and a blood/high elf and thus admits Void Elves ARE different.

You are wrong.

I can not only quote Chris Metzen backing me up, I have video of him saying the words.

And videos of the game director backing my position as well.

I will take the opinions of the creator of the game universe and one of the seniormost developers working on the game over your own because what they have said vastly outweighs your opinion on the subject.

Attempting to prove Blood Elves are not High Elves is unsustainable in the light of such statements. It is an argument you are never going to win because you cannot prove something that isn't true.

[FlubberPuddy]

8.3 is confirmed as the final patch of battle for azeroth with no 8.3.5 closing things out, meaning the hypothetical final pair of BFA Allied races has been debunked and the allied race cycle has finally closed.

Allied races will come in the future, but they will be deployed at a cadence far, far slower than what we have become accustomed to these past few years as the developers do not want allied races to be expected, nor do they wish to overburden the two main factions with so many options that they lose their identity under the weight of choice.

And of course that fact is pertinent to this debate because common sense dictates that if the opportunities for additions are rare then they are incredibly unlikely to spend a valuable opportunity that may come once every two or four years on a duplicate of an existing race.

Last bit is up in the air seeing as certain race additions (mechagnomes the biggest, but also nightborne/lightforged/highmountain) have had a very lukewarm reception or (in the case of nightborne) have had feedback that the AR itself needs much more work, while some races like brown orcs and blue blood elves had an exciting reception despite being essentially recolor tweaks.

I think what will happen (and I believe Ion even mentioned so) is that the existing AR will at some point receive a brushing up. On top of that, with increased customizations coming the definition of how "new races" and "allied races" get added is also up in the air.

As we see that wildhammer dwarves, who were long suggested as an Allied Race once the system was revealed has been included in base dwarves. I can therefore see Blizzard making some form of High Elves available through Void Elves.

It saves them from, as you say, "spending a valuable opportunity" (which I take here as another race slot) as adding them in similar to wildhammer avoids that. Also follows the goal of their increased customizations coming in Shadowlands (more variety within a race option) and adds it to Allied Races.

Win/win in a sense, not a complete win for those wanting High Elves as a stand-alone Allied Race, but allows an Alliance race member to become playable in a manner (thus conserving the recognizable silhouettes available within a given faction) that doesn't "take up a slot" where new races/ARs are concerned.

Of course all the above also assumes that adding races/race customization is going to stay as the methods introduced as of today and as we have seen within the scope of 1 expansion these methods of adding races/racial customization will most likely change as Blizzard iterates on their ideas.

[delus]

RP can stretch in a lot of ways. Not really my cup o' tea as it were, but if you want to RP as a High Elven exile using Void Elf customization then more power to you, I suppose. I would say it's certainly possible such a customization could be added for Void Elves whenever passes are done for the Allied Races.

I don't think it's fair to either Void Elves or the High Elven exiles to strip away every nuance that makes Void Elves unique just so they can LARP as High Elves, though - neither from a lore perspective nor a gameplay one. I can't pretend to know what the masses are clambering for, but I prefer the playable races of WoW to retain what unique qualities they have from both an aesthetic sense and one grounded in a unique story in the narrative.

They are pretty much stripping away the danger of the void. The narrative of the whispers is pretty much getting dialed down already with the introduction of void elves as a playable race. The void for the most part is being downplayed as a threat. They are depicted as having mastered the void. Having second generation void elves that go through a different process and do not go through as many physical changes as the first generation is not only feasible but likely.

[Ielenia]

8.3 is confirmed as the final patch of battle for azeroth with no 8.3.5 closing things out

Wrong. Ion said they currently don't have plans for 8.3.5. That is not "100% confirmation" that 8.3.5 won't happen. On top of that, Blizzard has gone on record to say that "allied races" is a concept they want to do again in the future, so BfA coming to an end does not mean we won't see any more allied races in the future.

That Blizzard can change their minds is a given that nobody contests. However, there seems to be a sense among the pro High Elf community that 'can' change their minds is actually 'will' change their minds, provided sufficient pressure is exerted.

False. This is just your narrative regarding our requests. We're doing this because we know Blizzard can change their minds, since they have done so in the past. No one is saying "they will".

As stated, when terming the Pandaren 'neutral' in the context of this discussion it is in relation to faction composition and means the same race is available to both Alliance in Horde. This is the definition used by Blizzard themselves, even on their own website as linked in an earlier post.

Care to link Blizzard's definition for me, then, please?

In terms of faction composition, granting an exact duplicate of a horde race to the Alliance is making that race neutral, just as the Pandaren are neutral in that context.

Good thing that it won't be "an exact duplicate" (mind you, nobody is asking for "an exact duplicate) since the high elves, as a playable race, would have differnt starting zones, racials, mounts, leadership, and you won't be able to pick "Alliance/Horde" at the end of your starting zone.

That there are previous situations where they did change their minds is irrelevant

It's not irrelevant. It's a precedent. You are making up arbitrary barriers to disqualify the precedent.

It is not bait, in the name of faction diversity only one representative group of each race (with the exception of the Pandaren) has been selected as avatars for players..

And yet the Horde got night elves, and the Alliance got blood elves.

Again, the population issue is not the real barrier to why they were not selected. It is part of the rationale, but not the whole story. The exiles were not selected because the high elf race is represented by Blood Elves and are a part of the Horde faction. Granting that option to the Alliance unaltered undermines the divisions between the faction,

The simple fact you wrote that is proof enough, for me, that you don't care about reading the ideas people presented in this thread and are arguing for arguing's sake. There are loads of posts in this thread where posters offer possible ideas of how to further differentiate the high elves from the blood elves.

That seems to be a foolhardy attitude . A developer opinion is vastly more meaningful than a fan opinion and they are not equivalent. For example, some fans would have liked high elves as an allied race, the developers disagreed and it didn't happen.

Just because they hold creative control does not mean that their opinion is "superior" to our own.

You seem to be deliberately missing the point that someone 'effectively' doing something does not mean someone 'literally' did it,

Except even when using "effectively" still implies it was something Kael'Thas did, which is false. Kael'Thas never abdicated from the throne, literally or figuratively.

Which is an arbitrary quantification meant to convey your personal feelings that they were barely differentiated.

Want to talk about "feelings"? Ok. Here's an image. Please tell me which silhouette is the blood elf, and which one is the void elf:


If you are having trouble, here's a hint: you are a dark iron paladin.

Original image (clicking will open a new image): Left character is the void elf, right character is the blood elf.

Which again begs the question, if you consider Void Elves to be so close to Blood/high elves as to be almost indistinguishable, then the Alliance has high elves.

It "begs" no question, whatsoever. This is just to counter such absurd notions that pro-high-elf supporters "only want the blood elf model" and that "it blurs faction lines". I'll repeat what I said above: you writing this only further proves to me that you don't read people's ideas, you're here just to argue for arguing's sake.

I can not only quote Chris Metzen backing me up, I have video of him saying the words.

And I'll show you instances within the game where high elves are very clearly a separate and independent group from blood elves.

[Obelisk Kai]

Wrong. Ion said they currently don't have plans for 8.3.5. That is not "100% confirmation" that 8.3.5 won't happen. On top of that, Blizzard has gone on record to say that "allied races" is a concept they want to do again in the future, so BfA coming to an end does not mean we won't see any more allied races in the future.

If they don't have plans for 8.3.5 now then they aren't doing an 8.3.5 and it is 100% confirmation it's not happening. They have an expansion to release this year and an alpha beginning soon, they simply don't have the time for 8.3.5 and the time is so tight there really isn't the room to indulge in baseless hypotheticalas, nor do they have any content to put into a hypothetical 8.3.5. Nor did I deny that allied races won't be seen again. I said that as allied races are confirmed to be getting much rarer with the end of BFA, the chances of them using a slot for the exiles that comes along every three or four years is significantly less than it was them granting a slot that was one of five across a two year cycle.

False. This is just your narrative regarding our requests. We're doing this because we know Blizzard can change their minds, since they have done so in the past. No one is saying "they will".

I never said they wouldn't. I just lay out all the reasons why they almost certainly won't. Prime among them Void Elves, whose very existence is a rebuke to the hopes for an exile allied race because they never would have created void elves had they had any intention of making the exiles at a later date.

Care to link Blizzard's definition for me, then, please?

I did before.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/game/races/pandaren

Under racial traits.

Faction Neutral
Pandaren may choose to align with either the Alliance or the Horde.

Good thing that it won't be "an exact duplicate" (mind you, nobody is asking for "an exact duplicate) since the high elves, as a playable race, would have differnt starting zones, racials, mounts, leadership, and you won't be able to pick "Alliance/Horde" at the end of your starting zone.

And what has happened to change them? Were they granted the gift of a nature demigod? No.

Were they the products of a holy pilgrimage that reforged their bodies in the name of the light? No.

Were they separated for ten thousand years within an isolated city, preserving the culture of their vanished civilization when all others forsook it whilst bathing in the arcane energies of their nightwell? No.

Were they bombarded by vast amounts of void energies, provoking a physiological change and a connection to one of the primordial forces of the universe? Some of them yes, but they became a part of a separate group as a result.

What they are is in the description. They are exiles, identical in every fashion to every other high elf in the game in every way save their politics. If that were enough to base an allied race on, Blizzard would never have created Void Elves. They are a duplicate, rejected for being duplicates and incapable of being meaningfully differentiated from the Blood Elves whilst remaining high elves. The minimum level of differentiation required to justify an allied race based upon a core race of the opposite faction is that embodied by the Void Elves.

It's not irrelevant. It's a precedent. You are making up arbitrary barriers to disqualify the precedent.

No, someone being able to change their mind is a fact of life, not a precedent. What is actually more important is that on this issue, despite many years of trying to get them to cave, they didn't change their mind. And of course, when presented with the perfect opportunity to give the Alliance exiles, they gave the Alliance Void Elves instead.

And yet the Horde got night elves, and the Alliance got blood elves.

The Horde got Nightborne, not Night Elves. The Alliance got Void Elves, not Blood Elves.

The simple fact you wrote that is proof enough, for me, that you don't care about reading the ideas people presented in this thread and are arguing for arguing's sake. There are loads of posts in this thread where posters offer possible ideas of how to further differentiate the high elves from the blood elves.

Which have boiled down to tattoos, hairstyles and finding a way to convey an attitude as a feature in the character creator, reflective of the notion that the exiles somehow have a superior morality to the Blood Elves.

Anything that can be replicated on a Blood Elf is not meaningful differentiation.

Just because they hold creative control does not mean that their opinion is "superior" to our own.

Yes it does, authorial intent is superior to fan opinion in terms of whether a statement is correct or not.

Except even when using "effectively" still implies it was something Kael'Thas did, which is false. Kael'Thas never abdicated from the throne, literally or figuratively.

He did effectively abdicate, as confirmed by the canon chronicles volume 3 I quoted earlier, as allying with the Legion was an act of treachery.

Want to talk about "feelings"? Ok. Here's an image. Please tell me which silhouette is the blood elf, and which one is the void elf:


If you are having trouble, here's a hint: you are a dark iron paladin.

Original image (clicking will open a new image): Left character is the void elf, right character is the blood elf.

The one on the left is the Void Elf, the one on the right is the Blood/high elf. The silhouettes are not exact as the Void Elf hair style is unique, and Void Elves don't have a severe, non-shaggy style as Blood/high elves do. Which just goes to show if you wish to set an impossible test to make a point, you have to ensure the point is actually valid.

It "begs" no question, whatsoever. This is just to counter such absurd notions that pro-high-elf supporters "only want the blood elf model" and that "it blurs faction lines". I'll repeat what I said above: you writing this only further proves to me that you don't read people's ideas, you're here just to argue for arguing's sake.

It is impossible to reinvent the wheel in such a way that the resulting wheel is not round. The ideas put forward in this thread were not good enough as differentiating Blood Elves and the exiles as the end result was still the same thalassian elf. A Void Elf represents the level of differentiation required to justify an allied race i.e. something that cannot be replicated by the parent race. No Blood Elf or exile is ever going to have purple skin or hair tentacles without outside, transformative intervention.

On the other hand some of the suggestions were pretty cool looking and I look forward to seeing if some of them or something like them are included with the Blood Elf customisation pass in the next few months.

And I'll show you instances within the game where high elves are very clearly a separate and independent group from blood elves.

The exiles are, by definition, exiled from the political structures of Quel'thalas and they operate independently. That's why they are exiles. But they are still the same people as the Blood Elves. Who are High Elves. Who are playable, and who offer the high elf fantasy to anyone who wishes to play the game at this very moment.

- - - Updated - - -

snip

The Allied races may receive a touching up, but there is no guarantee Void Elves will get the customization options you wish and for reasons previously expressed I suspect it to be highly unlikely. For one thing, a considerable number of pro high elf commentators on the forums are against the idea on the grounds that it isn't what they wanted. Among all the reasons not to do it, the feedback they are receiving would seem to me to suggest that 'why bother, it won't make them happy anyway' is going to be one of the top deciders.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

The one on the left is the Void Elf, the one on the right is the Blood/high elf. The silhouettes are not exact as the Void Elf hair style is unique, and Void Elves don't have a severe, non-shaggy style as Blood/high elves do. Which just goes to show if you wish to set an impossible test to make a point, you have to ensure the point is actually valid.

This one. This is the response that simply exemplaizes the unfathomable depth of your bias. They have literally the same silhouette except for the hairstyle -which is entirely cultural and it's the one cosmetic option that requires no explanation besides fashion, so High Elves could have different hairstyles.

But you proudly announce that the hairstyle is the only difference on the silhouette, proving the point. How you cannot see how past you are from the rational thought you believe you posses is beyond me.

[Obelisk Kai]

This one. This is the response that simply exemplaizes the unfathomable depth of your bias. They have literally the same silhouette except for the hairstyle -which is entirely cultural and it's the one cosmetic option that requires no explanation besides fashion, so High Elves could have different hairstyles.

But you proudly announce that the hairstyle is the only difference on the silhouette, proving the point. How you cannot see how past you are from the rational thought you believe you posses is beyond me.

It's easy. I was being asked I could tell the difference between Void Elves and Blood Elves when presented with their silhouettes, and I could. The thing is though it's an irrelevant point.

Void Elves and Blood Elves share the model but not the nature. Void Elves a void themed variant of the traditional high elf as embodied by the blood elves, and blood elves are the embodiment of the traditional high elf fantasy.

And I say again, anyone arguing that Void Elves are identical to Blood/high elves who then argues that Void Elves are unacceptable as a replacement for Blood/high elves is being inconsistent. Either they are identical, in which case the Alliance has high elves, or they are different, in which case faction diversity is preserved.

[FlubberPuddy]

The Allied races may receive a touching up, but there is no guarantee Void Elves will get the customization options you wish and for reasons previously expressed I suspect it to be highly unlikely. For one thing, a considerable number of pro high elf commentators on the forums are against the idea on the grounds that it isn't what they wanted. Among all the reasons not to do it, the feedback they are receiving would seem to me to suggest that 'why bother, it won't make them happy anyway' is going to be one of the top deciders.

There's no guarantee in any ask/request/feedback until it happens so that's superfluous to state.

What you're forgetting is that High Elf skins on Void Elves isn't merely a request from a sect of pro-high elf fans, but also people that don't play Void Elves and think that's an appreciable solution and also (and probably the most important) the fans of Void Elves themselves who clamor for High Elf skins to be able to look like Alleria and also say this would make sense for their favorite race.

It wouldn't ever end in "why bother anyway it won't make them happy" because Blizzard already stated they're ok with some portion of the playerbase being unhappy as long most people are happy - which is what they have to do anyway with a playerbase as large as theirs.

You have to hope that they don't ever decide to add High Elf skins (already on the heels of a "it's possible" by Afrasiabi) but as I said as it's the most asked for customization for Void Elves from fans and non-fans alike (similar to how Nightborne players keep asking for Nightborne to look more like NPCs) I'd say it's really up in the air and we'll have to wait until it's time to cross that bridge and see what happens.

Especially since, as I said, if Allied Races are supposed to be considered "prestige races" that require more work to unlock, the fans/players of Allied Races will undoubtedly feel like 2nd rate citizens if AR do not get their share of increased customization in the future. And my evidence for this is already the numerous amount of asking various players/media/press interviewers have done in asking about if Allied Races will be receiving increased customizations as well in Shadowlands with Blizzard responding for now they're focused on the core race customizations only, (this means they had a chance to say 'no we believe the customization with AR needs to stay tight/minimal as they have a very specific identity attached to their aesthetics' or something of that ilk and didn't) leaving the door open to AR increased customization down the line.

And to finish it off, as I've said before, since we see that the increased customizations are all based heavily on what players have been asking for, for years, then to me it is simply more likely that when (yup not if atm) increased customizations come to AR that for Void Elves in particular we will more than likely start seeing some High Elf looks. Granted High Elves continue to be part of Alliance, as they are now, then.

- - - Updated - - -

And I say again, anyone arguing that Void Elves are identical to Blood/high elves who then argues that Void Elves are unacceptable as a replacement for Blood/high elves is being inconsistent. Either they are identical, in which case the Alliance has high elves, or they are different, in which case faction diversity is preserved.

When people argue silhouettes they're arguing against the common attempt at a "gotcha" of 'races can't have the same silhouettes, so since Blood Elves already have that silhouette there can't be another race (High Elf) playable that also shares the same silhouette'. You're trying to lump different targeted and contextual arguments altogether to form your arguments which is what doesn't make sense.

Also a Void Elf can share a High Elf silhouette but still fail to be the High Elves that are being asked for. For instance I could tell people who want Ogres to go play a Kul'Tiran as they clearly share the same silhouette as Mok'nathal (Rexxar) but it's not complicated to see that the flavor of a Kul'Tiran beyond simply silhouette isn't what an Ogre fan requested and should be satisfied with now and end their request for Ogres. This is how you're ending point sounds.

What you keep trying to do is pin down one aspect of a playable race when it's the entire package that comes together that makes them the race option players request.

You cannot satisfy Horde Ogre fans by simply making Ogres available on Alliance. It's something in Blizzard's power to do but they will not satisfy those fans who've wanted Ogres on Horde since forever. It's this simple.

Therefore same thing for Alliance High Elf fans. Putting a 'high elf race' on Horde does nothing to satisfy Alliance players that have been asking for High Elves on their faction to be playable since forever.

[Ielenia]

If they don't have plans for 8.3.5 now then they aren't doing an 8.3.5 and it is 100% confirmation it's not happening. They have an expansion to release this year and an alpha beginning soon, they simply don't have the time for 8.3.5 and the time is so tight there really isn't the room to indulge in baseless hypotheticalas (1), nor do they have any content to put into a hypothetical 8.3.5. (2) Nor did I deny that allied races won't be seen again. I said that as allied races are confirmed to be getting much rarer with the end of BFA, the chances of them using a slot for the exiles that comes along every three or four years is significantly less than it was them granting a slot that was one of five across a two year cycle.

1) It's not 'baseless'.
2) Just because you can't think of anything, doesn't mean they don't have any. Off the top of my head, they could put something to link BfA to Shadowlands, like how Ruby Sanctum linked Wrath to Cata.

I did before.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/game/races/pandaren

Under racial traits.

Faction Neutral
Pandaren may choose to align with either the Alliance or the Horde.

Ah. Thank you for backing up my claims. Right here: "Pandaren may choose to align". There would be no 'choosing to align' for high elves and blood elves. Blood elves would always be Horde, high elves would always be Alliance. So, by that definition, they are not neutral.

And what has happened to change them? Were they granted the gift of a nature demigod? No.

Were they the products of a holy pilgrimage that reforged their bodies in the name of the light? No.

Were they separated for ten thousand years within an isolated city, preserving the culture of their vanished civilization when all others forsook it whilst bathing in the arcane energies of their nightwell? No.

Were they bombarded by vast amounts of void energies, provoking a physiological change and a connection to one of the primordial forces of the universe? Some of them yes, but they became a part of a separate group as a result.

Irrelevant. Racials are also based on culture. For example, they would likely not have the 'arcane torrent' racial, due to their refusal to drain mana from living beings, therefore they would not have 'excess mana to discharge', which is the reason for that racial's existence. They would also likely not have 'enchanting' racial. Or the 'arcane resistance' and 'arcane acuity' racials. All due to them moving away from depending on magic.

No, someone being able to change their mind is a fact of life, not a precedent.

It's a precedent because people like you keep saying "Blizzard already told you 'no'", so pointing out other instances in which "Blizzard had told us 'no'" but then later on changed their minds is valid precedent.

The Horde got Nightborne, not Night Elves. The Alliance got Void Elves, not Blood Elves.

The Horde got:
• The night elf model
• The night elf lore

While the Alliance got:
• The blood elf model
• The blood elf lore

Which have boiled down to tattoos, hairstyles and finding a way to convey an attitude as a feature in the character creator, reflective of the notion that the exiles somehow have a superior morality to the Blood Elves.

Anything that can be replicated on a Blood Elf is not meaningful differentiation.

It was "meaningful differentiation" for Highmountain tauren and lightforged draenei.

Yes it does, authorial intent is superior to fan opinion in terms of whether a statement is correct or not.

Wrong. Their opinion have just as much weight as ours, because we're not talking about objective facts and numbers that require a science or mathematical degree to analyze. We're talking about subjectivity here, which is why no opinion is superior to someone else's.

He did effectively abdicate, as confirmed by the canon chronicles volume 3 I quoted earlier

False. The blood elves simply decided to stop following him. Kael'Thas did not abdicate from the throne.

The one on the left is the Void Elf, the one on the right is the Blood/high elf. The silhouettes are not exact as the Void Elf hair style is unique, and Void Elves don't have a severe, non-shaggy style as Blood/high elves do. Which just goes to show if you wish to set an impossible test to make a point, you have to ensure the point is actually valid.

Yeah. You know because you looked at the other images. You wouldn't, otherwise. What I posted is a perfect illustration how their outlines are the exact same.

The ideas put forward in this thread were not good enough

In your opinion. Stop posting your opinion as objective facts.

The exiles are, by definition, exiled from the political structures of Quel'thalas and they operate independently. That's why they are exiles. But they are still the same people as the Blood Elves.

Which is irrelevant. Being the same race is not necessarily an obstacle that prevents a group of people from being made playable. Gilneas worgen are still human. They have human children. It's possible that the void elves are like that, as well. Kul'Tiras are humans. Again, "same race" doesn't seem to be an impediment anymore.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

It's easy. I was being asked I could tell the difference between Void Elves and Blood Elves when presented with their silhouettes, and I could. The thing is though it's an irrelevant point.

Void Elves and Blood Elves share the model but not the nature. Void Elves a void themed variant of the traditional high elf as embodied by the blood elves, and blood elves are the embodiment of the traditional high elf fantasy.

Because there is just one flavor of the "traditional high elf fantasy" but we have two flavors of the night elven fantasy? Come on dude, we have literal proof that fantasies can be diversified, not that it was needed because... imagination. But that you think saying that there's just "one possible High Elf fantasy" is a rational point to make is bewildering.

And I say again, anyone arguing that Void Elves are identical to Blood/high elves who then argues that Void Elves are unacceptable as a replacement for Blood/high elves is being inconsistent. Either they are identical, in which case the Alliance has high elves, or they are different, in which case faction diversity is preserved.

And you have been told MULTIPLE times that the crux of the issue is not the similarity of the models -most Pro HE people don't care either way- but that Void Elves don't share the specific fantasy of the Alliance High Elves and are instead Blood Elves. The context of the Alliance high Elves is simply different from the Blood Elves, and that is not up for debate. How different it is, however, it is so, which in terms of development, could mean make HE's as different as they they can while still making them recognizable as the group of High Elves players actually want.

And you know, there's always the third option of making the HE model visually distinct through through non biological explanations, which would maintain model diversity further than Void Elves actually did.

[Ielenia]

And I say again, anyone arguing that Void Elves are identical to Blood/high elves who then argues that Void Elves are unacceptable as a replacement for Blood/high elves is being inconsistent.

There is absolutely zero inconsistencies. Because who brought the "model argument" here were the anti-high-elf group, saying "you just want the blood elf model in the Alliance". The silhouettes I posted is simply to show that this is a meaningless argument to have.

We don't care about silhouettes. The anti-high-elf group does.

[Aldo Hawk]

The Allied races may receive a touching up, but there is no guarantee Void Elves will get the customization options you wish and for reasons previously expressed I suspect it to be highly unlikely. For one thing, a considerable number of pro high elf commentators on the forums are against the idea on the grounds that it isn't what they wanted. Among all the reasons not to do it, the feedback they are receiving would seem to me to suggest that 'why bother, it won't make them happy anyway' is going to be one of the top deciders.

Ok, pay some attention.

The Allied races may receive a touching up, but there is no guarantee Void Elves will get the customization options you wish...

This part of the quote exemplifies a directly confrontational statement when faced with the context of what Pennem have been discussing, setting the tone of the answer from the start, and it continues with:

Stating that Pennem wishes that, which is an imposed 'wishing' status on him that he didn't even pushed for, creating a supposed situation that doesn't match with reality where Pennem wishes for something, and that serves a purpose of magnifying the idea of 'no guarantee' that he reinforces in the next part of the quote:

and for reasons previously expressed I suspect it to be highly unlikely.

This is a way for him to force Pennem to defend it's view, since not doing so would be an acceptance of whatever Obelisk Kai says, but the best part comes next:

For one thing, a considerable number of pro high elf commentators on the forums are against the idea on the grounds that it isn't what they wanted.

This part of the quote exemplifies another thing that Obelisk Kai do a lot, that is pointing at the other side as being undecided and/or unsettled, trying to make appear as if Pennem has to say something about that, which is not the case, since in this context the concept of a part of people accepting one compromise have been explained a lot of times to Obelisk Kai. Even letting clear that it is not such a problem as Obelisk Kai tries to imply, showing a big lack of dishonesty from the man.

And here comes the last part, that when combined with the former parts of the quote it creates a bait for Pennem that forces the discussion to continue through a path that serves no purpose than to over-explain context, concepts and statements again and again in order to not concede what falsely appears to be an important point:

Among all the reasons not to do it, the feedback they are receiving would seem to me to suggest that 'why bother, it won't make them happy anyway' is going to be one of the top deciders.

This last part is very telling about the intentions of the post, which is to make a red herring that serves no purpose than to make Pennem discuss something that has no real importance, but it's told in a way that makes it appear as if it has to be defended in any way out of risk of 'accepting' a made up reality.

And I have not entered in other details such as the way Obelisk Kai deforms and bends statements, context and concepts, because in this case there isn't. But it's another thing he does to switch the rails of the conversation into something pointless that only serves to discuss what he presents and nothing actually important.

What I want you to think about is if feeding this behavior is worth it, since it does nothing more than degenerating any potential conversation that could be had here into something that resembles a trial instead of... well... a conversation.

I may be infracted yet again by this, I don't care, but this is a serious problem with this user and this thread that still stain the thread to this day and doesn't allow it to have a normal pace and environment.

Note that this is only a small part of one of his posts, this has been the tone for a very long time.

[Thalassian Bob]

Does it make you guys more or less optimistic about the addition of playable high elves to the game that, with the blood elf eye tweaks of 8.3, the high elf eyes have not been touched?

I had hoped for blue eyes being available to blood elves in Shadowlands, but the fact that they've not bothered to do anything with high elf eyes in this patch makes me sceptical that that's going to be an option as a cosmetic for an existing player race, let alone be a key feature of an additional playable race.

[FlubberPuddy]

Does it make you guys more or less optimistic about the addition of playable high elves to the game that, with the blood elf eye tweaks of 8.3, the high elf eyes have not been touched?

I had hoped for blue eyes being available to blood elves in Shadowlands, but the fact that they've not bothered to do anything with high elf eyes in this patch makes me sceptical that that's going to be an option as a cosmetic for an existing player race, let alone be a key feature of an additional playable race.

I'm in the dark, what did they do to Blood Elf eyes in BfA that they didn't do to High Elves?

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Does it make you guys more or less optimistic about the addition of playable high elves to the game that, with the blood elf eye tweaks of 8.3, the high elf eyes have not been touched?

I had hoped for blue eyes being available to blood elves in Shadowlands, but the fact that they've not bothered to do anything with high elf eyes in this patch makes me sceptical that that's going to be an option as a cosmetic for an existing player race, let alone be a key feature of an additional playable race.

Honestly I don't think it's relevant for the most part, cause at best it just means a clear separation between current player options, and NPC options; If blue eye colors are added for Blood Elves in the future, they are going to be a new asset added with the ability to change eye color regardless of face. So if BE's get blue eyes, they were never gonna be the same eyes HE npc's have.

Basically, I don't think we are seeing any groundwork for Shadowlands in terms of the tech that will allow for custom eye color, they just only separated playable from NPC options -and as far as I know, they didn't even get to change DR eye color so far-

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I'm in the dark, what did they do to Blood Elf eyes in BfA that they didn't do to High Elves?

in 8.3 they removed the "hovering" eye glow on races and DK's and replaced it with the texture of the eye itself being glowiong; in earlier builds that made the High Elves be eyeless, but later they regained their glowless blue eyes.

Interestingly, 8.3 went live with Dark Ranger eyes missing, and instead they have green eyes, as well as high elf NPC's that had blue eyes but the glow overlay, since there's still some bugs and overall it's a work in progress still.

[FlubberPuddy]

in 8.3 they removed the "hovering" eye glow on races and DK's and replaced it with the texture of the eye itself being glowiong; in earlier builds that made the High Elves be eyeless, but later they regained their glowless blue eyes.

Interestingly, 8.3 went live with Dark Ranger eyes missing, and instead they have green eyes, as well as high elf NPC's that had blue eyes but the glow overlay, since there's still some bugs and overall it's a work in progress still.

Oh gotcha. Yeah I agree, I don't think if they had blue eyes to Blood Elves it would be the same as NPC High Elves, especially since NPC High Elves eyes for the most part don't glow and all Blood Elf eyes glow. They'd most likely receive what are essentially the previous Blood Elf DK eyes (without the floating glow light in front).

[Obelisk Kai]

There's no guarantee in any ask/request/feedback until it happens so that's superfluous to state.

What you're forgetting is that High Elf skins on Void Elves isn't merely a request from a sect of pro-high elf fans, but also people that don't play Void Elves and think that's an appreciable solution and also (and probably the most important) the fans of Void Elves themselves who clamor for High Elf skins to be able to look like Alleria and also say this would make sense for their favorite race.

It wouldn't ever end in "why bother anyway it won't make them happy" because Blizzard already stated they're ok with some portion of the playerbase being unhappy as long most people are happy - which is what they have to do anyway with a playerbase as large as theirs.

You have to hope that they don't ever decide to add High Elf skins (already on the heels of a "it's possible" by Afrasiabi) but as I said as it's the most asked for customization for Void Elves from fans and non-fans alike (similar to how Nightborne players keep asking for Nightborne to look more like NPCs) I'd say it's really up in the air and we'll have to wait until it's time to cross that bridge and see what happens.

Especially since, as I said, if Allied Races are supposed to be considered "prestige races" that require more work to unlock, the fans/players of Allied Races will undoubtedly feel like 2nd rate citizens if AR do not get their share of increased customization in the future. And my evidence for this is already the numerous amount of asking various players/media/press interviewers have done in asking about if Allied Races will be receiving increased customizations as well in Shadowlands with Blizzard responding for now they're focused on the core race customizations only, (this means they had a chance to say 'no we believe the customization with AR needs to stay tight/minimal as they have a very specific identity attached to their aesthetics' or something of that ilk and didn't) leaving the door open to AR increased customization down the line.

And to finish it off, as I've said before, since we see that the increased customizations are all based heavily on what players have been asking for, for years, then to me it is simply more likely that when (yup not if atm) increased customizations come to AR that for Void Elves in particular we will more than likely start seeing some High Elf looks. Granted High Elves continue to be part of Alliance, as they are now, then.

That it is the 'most asked for customization' cannot be judged in isolation, as almost every other request on a potential race customization can be, because of the inevitable consequences of granting that request. That Void Elves would have access to human range skin tones and this would diminish the limited differences currently in existence between Void Elves and Blood/high elves. This is infringing on the aesthetic quality of already playable race, particularly important considering the entire reason Void Elves were created was to give the Alliance something like a high elf that did not infringe on the Blood/high elf fantasy too much.

So while it is 'up in the air' and we do have to wait see what is decided, what must be borne in mind are the unique factors at play on this particular request for this particular race. Had these factors not been an issue when the initial allied races were being discussed, they likely wouldn't have bothered creating Void Elves in the first place and simply gone straight to the exiles. As it is, just as preserving the identity of the Blood Elves and the integrity of the Horde were the reasons as to why Ion's off-hand suggestion that high elves could be possible in a sub-race system ultimately turned out to be unworkable, so Afrasiabi's similar comment is likely fated to encounter similar resistance for the same reasons.

If people are demanding the aesthetic that much, that aesthetic choice is already available. Imagine for a second people were asking to play Dark Iron Dwarves with human range skin tones what the likely reaction would be. They would be told to play an ordinary Dwarf of course. The same principle applies here. The inevitable retort, that Dark Iron Dwarves and ordinary Dwarves share a faction whereas Void Elves and Blood Elves don't, merely compounds the point that faction identity is at play in the Void Elf-Blood Elf question in a way it is nowhere else.

What you keep trying to do is pin down one aspect of a playable race when it's the entire package that comes together that makes them the race option players request.

Therefore same thing for Alliance High Elf fans. Putting a 'high elf race' on Horde does nothing to satisfy Alliance players that have been asking for High Elves on their faction to be playable since forever.

The issue of course is that the entire package is represented by the Blood Elves with one singular difference, the political faction the Blood Elves were on. Had Blood Elves been granted to the Alliance I sincerely doubt the pro High Elf community would have protested that these were not their high elves on the basis of an adjective alone. I sincerely doubt it.

As faction is the sole differentiating factor of worth, the question became whether adding a duplicate to the other faction at the cost of faction diversity and identity was worth it. It is not, duplicating a core race of one faction to the other inevitably degrades both factions, both the faction that loses a monopoly on the core race that constitutes a part of it's identity and the faction that receives the duplicate, who would have lost something of genuine difference to make room for the duplicate and which is being reshaped to be more like the other side. Once it is appreciated how much faction diversity is a concern, the elegance of the Void Elf solution becomes apparent. A genuine variant, not a duplicate.

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1) It's not 'baseless'.
2) Just because you can't think of anything, doesn't mean they don't have any. Off the top of my head, they could put something to link BfA to Shadowlands, like how Ruby Sanctum linked Wrath to Cata.

I am afraid it is appropriate to describe speculations on 8.3.5 as baseless when we have confirmation from that 8.3.5 is not happening. I would similarly regard speculation regarding 7.4 and 6.3 as baseless as they are not happening either. I am unsure as to why you are so insistent that 8.3.5 is still possible when not only the forums but multiple news sites are reporting the comments to mean no 8.3.5 either.

https://www.wowhead.com/news=307157/...no-patch-8-3-5

https://massivelyop.com/2020/01/15/b...l-shadowlands/

2) Just because you can't think of anything, doesn't mean they don't have any. Off the top of my head, they could put something to link BfA to Shadowlands, like how Ruby Sanctum linked Wrath to Cata.

The second response confuses me, my point is that as allied races are going to be a lot rarer in future (perhaps one pair every two or three years rather than ten races in five pairs across two years), the chances of them using a dedicated race slot on a duplicate of an already existing race is practically nil. Further movement on this topic can only reasonably be expected to come on potential void elf customisation, which carries with it it's own set of unique arguments.

Ah. Thank you for backing up my claims. Right here: "Pandaren may choose to align". There would be no 'choosing to align' for high elves and blood elves. Blood elves would always be Horde, high elves would always be Alliance. So, by that definition, they are not neutral.

You seem to keep missing the point here. A 'neutral' race in terms of faction composition merely means the race is available to both sides, not that the racial factions are themselves neutral. Therefore, adding the exiles to the Alliance is de facto turning the race neutral in the context of faction composition, which is also what Blizzard implies the term 'neutral race' to mean. It is a question of terminology appropriate for the discussion.

Irrelevant. Racials are also based on culture. For example, they would likely not have the 'arcane torrent' racial, due to their refusal to drain mana from living beings, therefore they would not have 'excess mana to discharge', which is the reason for that racial's existence. They would also likely not have 'enchanting' racial. Or the 'arcane resistance' and 'arcane acuity' racials. All due to them moving away from depending on magic.

In terms of 'moving away from magic', this seems to be a statement that is difficult to square. Most exiles encountered so far are either mages using magic who live in Dalaran, or are former Farstriders living in Dalaran. If they were 'moving away from magic' as you claim then setting up home in what is an arcane junkie's equivalent of a crack house is a very strange move. Also, the elves of Quel'Danil managed to get themselves all killed because they meddled with magic. What seems to be happening here is that the cold turkey approach of the elves of the Quel'lithien lodge (the source of which is of dubious canonicity in one of the old mangas by the way, I don't think this anti magic ethos has been demonstrated in game but I am open to correction) has been extrapolated by pro High Elf commentators across all the exiles to imply they share the same anti magic ethos with no real evidence of support of that proposition and plentiful evidence to debunk it.

Racials are based partly on culture and partly on biology. Both of which the exiles share almost completely with the Blood Elves.

It's a precedent because people like you keep saying "Blizzard already told you 'no'", so pointing out other instances in which "Blizzard had told us 'no'" but then later on changed their minds is valid precedent.

But Blizzard being able to change their minds isn't some massive revelation, that is always presumed. What is challenged is the assertion that because they changed their minds in the past they are definitely going to do so again. It is therefore worth pointing out why each of these u-turns happened and how they do not correlate to this particular debate.

The Horde got:
• The night elf model
• The night elf lore

Night Elf lore did not stop when Azshara broke the world. The Nightborne did not embrace druidism or become wood elves, nor did they participate in events such as the War of the Shifting Sands. What the Nightborne share with the Night Elves is a common heritage, and the Blood Elves shared that common heritage as well, but the three groups divided due to the events that occurred ten thousand years ago. What the Horde got was Nightborne lore, a time capsule of the vanished Night Elf civilization of old. Night Elf civilization today stands in direct opposition to what the Nightborne represent.

While the Alliance got:
• The blood elf model
• The blood elf lore

The Blood Elf model and Blood Elf lore are the high elf model and high elf lore. As stated, Blood Elves are the high elves of the Warcraft universe. Unlike the Nightborne, who preserved a civilization thought vanished ten thousand years ago, every Blood Elf and Void Elf alive today with the exception of the very youngest lived the vast majority of their lives with the name high elf. All they changed was an adjective.

Thus the Alliance got access to a the high elf lore in a way the Horde did not when it got Nightborne, as if the shared history of ten thousand years ago was that relevant, the Horde would have gotten that with Blood Elves.

It was "meaningful differentiation" for Highmountain tauren and lightforged draenei.

Both of which are on the same faction as their parents, and thus subject to a lower bar in terms of required differentiation, and both of whom have a lore based explanation for their physical differentiation (the lightforging process and the gift of cenarius). The exiles are on the other faction and they have no equivalent lore based explanation for physical differentiation, because they are not physically different. Being bombarded by void energy is equivalent to the gift of cenarius and lightforging and produced a valid allied race.

Wrong. Their opinion have just as much weight as ours, because we're not talking about objective facts and numbers that require a science or mathematical degree to analyze. We're talking about subjectivity here, which is why no opinion is superior to someone else's.

I fail to see how you can possibly be right. If they change their minds on something they have the capacity to actually effect that change. If we argue about something we argue on internet forums instead. The opinion of someone with power to affect change is superior to the opinion of those without that power. That is a fundamental given of pretty much everything.

False. The blood elves simply decided to stop following him. Kael'Thas did not abdicate from the throne.

The canon chronicles confirmed he effectively abdicated by betraying his people. As I have already explained the difference between 'effectively' and 'literally' I am unsure what point you are trying to prove here.

Yeah. You know because you looked at the other images. You wouldn't, otherwise. What I posted is a perfect illustration how their outlines are the exact same.

I looked at the other images afterwards to confirm I was correct, but the point stood I can tell them apart. The rationale I gave can be used by anyone to tell them apart. Were you so concerned with the validity of your test, you would have withheld the link to the confirmatory image until after I had answered. Including it in the initial post therefore seems to have been a failsafe, that were I to guess correctly you would accuse me of cheating and then argued they are indistinguishable. The test therefore was not conducted in good faith.

Which of course, they are not the exact same, as the hairstyles on the silhouettes are unique to Void Elves and Blood Elves and are a difference in this case. Something cannot be the exact same if a difference exists. They are similar. And there is a huge difference between identical and similar.


In your opinion. Stop posting your opinion as objective facts.

Which is irrelevant. Being the same race is not necessarily an obstacle that prevents a group of people from being made playable. Gilneas worgen are still human. They have human children. It's possible that the void elves are like that, as well. Kul'Tiras are humans. Again, "same race" doesn't seem to be an impediment anymore.

Gilneas Worgen are differentiated by being able to transform into werewolves. That is self evident. Their process of differentiation was being infected by the curse.

Kul Tiran differentiation seems to be either a product of environmental factors, throwbacks to Vrykul cross breeding, or a combination of both. However their relative isolation for the past two millenia and the fact that this body type has not manifested outside Kul Tiras demonstrates that this appears to be unique to the island. Perhaps we will get a firmer explanation someday beyond evolution.

Conversely, the exiles and blood elves have been separated for just over a decade and they can individually live for thousands of years. Physical differentiation among individuals of the same race and same generation of the level needed to justify a new allied race is therefore impossible to justify. Hence the use of void magic to create a genuine variant.

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Because there is just one flavor of the "traditional high elf fantasy" but we have two flavors of the night elven fantasy? Come on dude, we have literal proof that fantasies can be diversified, not that it was needed because... imagination. But that you think saying that there's just "one possible High Elf fantasy" is a rational point to make is bewildering.

Nightborne are not representative of the Night Elf fantasy. The Night Elves are the warcraft spin on Wood Elves and Dark Elves, seen in such things as their druidism and having a primarily female fighting force.

In contrast, the Nightborne are representative of the highborne fantasy, something the Night Elves consciously turned their backs on. The highborne fantasy is defined by magic use, city living and a certain arrogance to the lesser races. In other words, the Nightborne are a variant of the Blood Elf fantasy, albeit nocturnal themed rather than dirunal themed and using a variation of the night elf model.

It is the highborne therefore that forms a part of the Horde, whereas those who rejected the Highborne constitute the modern day Night Elves.

And you have been told MULTIPLE times that the crux of the issue is not the similarity of the models -most Pro HE people don't care either way- but that Void Elves don't share the specific fantasy of the Alliance High Elves and are instead Blood Elves. The context of the Alliance high Elves is simply different from the Blood Elves, and that is not up for debate. How different it is, however, it is so, which in terms of development, could mean make HE's as different as they they can while still making them recognizable as the group of High Elves players actually want.

The Void Elves are capable of transforming other elves into void elves. Anyone who wishes to indulge the fantasy of an always loyal to the Alliance exile should be encouraged to roleplay their void elf as a former exile. That option credibly exists for those who wish to partake of it.

The only thing differentiating the exiles from the Blood Elves is that attachment to the Alliance. That is not enough to differentiate them from Blood Elves.

And you know, there's always the third option of making the HE model visually distinct through through non biological explanations, which would maintain model diversity further than Void Elves actually did.

They did move some elves to be visually distinct through non biological explanations. That was where the Void Elves came from. Suggesting Blizzard try again but do so in a way that results in an elf a lot more like a Blood/high elf seems somewhat pointless given the reaction they got the first time from the hardcore, and because the Void Elves are likely as close to a Blood/high elf as they were willing to get. After all, in the grand scheme of things, all they changed on Void Elves was the skin tone range.

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Does it make you guys more or less optimistic about the addition of playable high elves to the game that, with the blood elf eye tweaks of 8.3, the high elf eyes have not been touched?

I had hoped for blue eyes being available to blood elves in Shadowlands, but the fact that they've not bothered to do anything with high elf eyes in this patch makes me sceptical that that's going to be an option as a cosmetic for an existing player race, let alone be a key feature of an additional playable race.

High Elf exile eyes have either been left alone or, far more mysteriously, replaced with death knight eyes. Death Knight eyes ARE blue, but they are not the blue expected for a thalassian elf.

If blue eyes are intended to be added as part of the character customization pass in Shadowlands for Blood Elves, they simply may not be ready yet. After all, eye colours are now housed on skins rather than separately. They will be separated out for the Shadowlands expansion, allowing us to mix eye colour choice with skin type choice. As, a result, doing something thalassian blue eyes may not have been regarded as worth it at this point in time.

[Thalassian Bob]

Honestly I don't think it's relevant for the most part, cause at best it just means a clear separation between current player options, and NPC options; If blue eye colors are added for Blood Elves in the future, they are going to be a new asset added with the ability to change eye color regardless of face. So if BE's get blue eyes, they were never gonna be the same eyes HE npc's have.

Basically, I don't think we are seeing any groundwork for Shadowlands in terms of the tech that will allow for custom eye color, they just only separated playable from NPC options -and as far as I know, they didn't even get to change DR eye color so far-

"DR eye color"?

High Elf exile eyes have either been left alone or, far more mysteriously, replaced with death knight eyes. Death Knight eyes ARE blue, but they are not the blue expected for a thalassian elf.

If blue eyes are intended to be added as part of the character customization pass in Shadowlands for Blood Elves, they simply may not be ready yet. After all, eye colours are now housed on skins rather than separately. They will be separated out for the Shadowlands expansion, allowing us to mix eye colour choice with skin type choice. As, a result, doing something thalassian blue eyes may not have been regarded as worth it at this point in time.

But, yeah, I would probably concur with you both that if blue eyes are going to be an option for blood elves in 9.0, they're likely going to be separate from the current NPC model.

I'd be interested to see, should blood elves guy blue, whether they'll bother converting the high elf NPCs to the new look or if they'll just leave them as is. I think that'd be telling.

[Ielenia]

I am afraid it is appropriate to describe speculations on 8.3.5 as baseless when we have confirmation from that 8.3.5 is not happening.

Except we don't. "We don't have plans" does not equal "we are confirming it's not happening". For all we know, they do have something being developed, but don't want to say anything as they're unsure if it'll be ready or good enough. Blizzard has 'burned' itself in the past by promising things that did not happen. Path of Titans and Dance Studio, for example.

The second response confuses me, my point is that as allied races are going to be a lot rarer in future

You said "they don't have any content to put in a hypothetical 8.3.5" and I replied that this is not true.

You seem to keep missing the point here. A 'neutral' race in terms of faction composition merely means the race is available to both sides, not that the racial factions are themselves neutral.

Except that's not "neutrality". Want to pursue that line of argumentation? Fine. But use the correct words. The Thalassian elves would not be neutral if high elves were added to the Alliance, just like they did not become neutral when void elves were ass-pulled into the Alliance.

In terms of 'moving away from magic', this seems to be a statement that is difficult to square. Most exiles encountered so far are either mages using magic who live in Dalaran, or are former Farstriders living in Dalaran. If they were 'moving away from magic' as you claim then setting up home in what is an arcane junkie's equivalent of a crack house is a very strange move. Also, the elves of Quel'Danil managed to get themselves all killed because they meddled with magic. What seems to be happening here is that the cold turkey approach of the elves of the Quel'lithien lodge (the source of which is of dubious canonicity in one of the old mangas by the way, I don't think this anti magic ethos has been demonstrated in game but I am open to correction) has been extrapolated by pro High Elf commentators across all the exiles to imply they share the same anti magic ethos with no real evidence of support of that proposition and plentiful evidence to debunk it.

Racials are based partly on culture and partly on biology. Both of which the exiles share almost completely with the Blood Elves.

Again: "they would likely not have the 'arcane torrent' racial, due to their refusal to drain mana from living beings, therefore they would not have 'excess mana to discharge', which is the reason for that racial's existence." That is one cultural difference.

Also: they would also likely not have 'enchanting' racial. Or the 'arcane resistance' and 'arcane acuity' racials. All due to them moving away from depending on magic." At no point I said "quitting cold turkey" or move away from magic completely. I simply said they would stop depending on magic. The high elves could have learned to not depend on something like the Sunwell due to their experience with the destruction of the Sunwell. That can be another cultural difference AND 'biological' too.

But Blizzard being able to change their minds isn't some massive revelation, that is always presumed. What is challenged is the assertion that because they changed their minds in the past they are definitely going to do so again. It is therefore worth pointing out why each of these u-turns happened and how they do not correlate to this particular debate.

Absolutely no one is saying that. No one. All we're saying is that they can change their minds, because people like you like to repeat, ad nauseum, "Blizzard has told you 'no', it's not going to happen".

Night Elf lore did not stop when Azshara broke the world.

The Blood Elf model and Blood Elf lore are the high elf model and high elf lore.

The high elf lore did not stop with the schism, either. It branched off, just like the night elf/nightborne. The branching off being more recent is irrelevant, in my opinion, because the two groups have already shown to be different, with the blood elves, despite being all 'holy' now, still don't shy away from going down darker paths, with the usage of magic that is practically necromancy: anima.

Both of which are on the same faction as their parents,

Everything the void elves have, can be replicated to the blood elves. Hell, the void elves are blood elves. The worgen curse can also be quick and easily replicated to Stormwind humans.

I fail to see how you can possibly be right. If they change their minds on something they have the capacity to actually effect that change. If we argue about something we argue on internet forums instead. The opinion of someone with power to affect change is superior to the opinion of those without that power. That is a fundamental given of pretty much everything.

The point of this thread is that the developers' opinions are not some "sacred, immutable word-of-god holy scripture". The entire point of this thread is that we want the developers to change their minds. Which is why saying "the developers disagree with you" is meaningless.

The canon chronicles confirmed he effectively abdicated by betraying his people.

Again: wrong. All the Chronicles did was confirm that a big group of blood elves decided to stop Kael'Thas, not that he "effectively abdicated from the throne".

I looked at the other images afterwards to confirm I was correct, but the point stood I can tell them apart.

I don't believe you. The only viable option is that you are lying. You could not tell them apart. At best, you guessed correctly. Their model and silhouette are the exact same.

Kul Tiran differentiation seems to be either a product of environmental factors, throwbacks to Vrykul cross breeding, or a combination of both. However their relative isolation for the past two millenia and the fact that this body type has not manifested outside Kul Tiras demonstrates that this appears to be unique to the island. Perhaps we will get a firmer explanation someday beyond evolution.

They did not leave "in relative isolation". Kul'Tiras was originally close to Baradin Bay and Gilneas, and only after the Cataclysm hit that they were pushed off further away from the mainland.

Conversely, the exiles and blood elves have been separated for just over a decade and they can individually live for thousands of years. Physical differentiation among individuals of the same race and same generation of the level needed to justify a new allied race is therefore impossible to justify. Hence the use of void magic to create a genuine variant.

Wrong. You don't know the "level of differentiation" that is required, so stop acting like you do. Void elves have shown that two races can have the exact same body model and silhouette, even in opposing factions. Skin color, hair color, and hair style are also unlikely to be a requirement since those are quite often hidden by armor.

[FlubberPuddy]

That it is the 'most asked for customization' cannot be judged in isolation, as almost every other request on a potential race customization can be, because of the inevitable consequences of granting that request. That Void Elves would have access to human range skin tones and this would diminish the limited differences currently in existence between Void Elves and Blood/high elves. This is infringing on the aesthetic quality of already playable race, particularly important considering the entire reason Void Elves were created was to give the Alliance something like a high elf that did not infringe on the Blood/high elf fantasy too much.

It's not in isolation. There are also people asking for a void shade closer to Alleria or things of that nature too. But I'm merely stating what has been most asked for, by the fans of void elves, by the non-fans, and by some pro-high elfers. Stating what's the most asked for isn't in any way ignoring what other customizations have been discussed so unsure why you're making it out to be like my statement said that.

Also, considering that it's not hard to find people disappointed with Mechagnomes, I don't think Blizzard is making decisions on what customization is available or added based on "infringing on aesthetic quality" as this argument can be used against those wishing Mechagnomes could wear pants or wishing Nightborne looked more like the NPCs.

And finally, Blizzard said "something like a blood elf", not a high elf. Stop twisting statements. They also didn't say anything along the lines of "here are your version of high elves and that's all you're getting" which is what you're trying to insinuate and you should stop that.

High Elves are a possibility, what form they happen to come in should be decided to be added is up in the air (referring to Afrasiabi comment). But in no form is the statement "High Elves aren't happening" or "Void Elves are your High Elves" ever true as of Blizzard's statements regarding what's being requested in this thread so far.

So while it is 'up in the air' and we do have to wait see what is decided, what must be borne in mind are the unique factors at play on this particular request for this particular race. Had these factors not been an issue when the initial allied races were being discussed, they likely wouldn't have bothered creating Void Elves in the first place and simply gone straight to the exiles. As it is, just as preserving the identity of the Blood Elves and the integrity of the Horde were the reasons as to why Ion's off-hand suggestion that high elves could be possible in a sub-race system ultimately turned out to be unworkable, so Afrasiabi's similar comment is likely fated to encounter similar resistance for the same reasons.

You can't say with confidence why they went for a certain choice over another so I'm not sure why you keep doing it unless you were in the private meeting where they were discussing High Elves. Blizzard themselves have never mentioned anything along the lines of, "we were first thinking of High Elves but decided they were too similar so went with Void Elves instead."

It doesn't have a lot of strength, just like to me it's very peculiar that the producer going around advertising Void Elves also happens to have an NPC of both herself, her significant other, and their pet also included in the launch as Void Elf NPCs. I can try and attempt a "this was that producer's idea all along!" but there's no concrete proof of anything and therefore it's not something to try and argue in any manner other than if you want to keep being asked where is proof of your statements.

If people are demanding the aesthetic that much, that aesthetic choice is already available. Imagine for a second people were asking to play Dark Iron Dwarves with human range skin tones what the likely reaction would be. They would be told to play an ordinary Dwarf of course. The same principle applies here. The inevitable retort, that Dark Iron Dwarves and ordinary Dwarves share a faction whereas Void Elves and Blood Elves don't, merely compounds the point that faction identity is at play in the Void Elf-Blood Elf question in a way it is nowhere else.

Here is where you are again trying to isolate an argument on a topic that is contextual. 1) Dark Irons all look like 'a Dark Iron', so the same principle doesn't apply. Your principle would apply only if Dark Irons were introduced as Void Dark Irons or Pink fairy Dark Irons and then you were telling people "well here is your Alliance Dark Iron" and again if you're focusing strictly on looks you're already not making a good argument because the faction and aesthetics are inseparable in this topic. Yet you keep only focusing on either 1) Aesthetics or 2) Faction separately.

The issue of course is that the entire package is represented by the Blood Elves with one singular difference, the political faction the Blood Elves were on. Had Blood Elves been granted to the Alliance I sincerely doubt the pro High Elf community would have protested that these were not their high elves on the basis of an adjective alone. I sincerely doubt it.

It's not the entire package save for "one singular difference". People have been describing different hairstyles, different idle stances, different racials, different faces, different mounts, different heritage armor. You are the only one treating it as "These people are asking for Blood Elf but on Alliance" which frankly is what Void Elves are and if that's truly what people wanted then this thread and the many others like it elsewhere wouldn't exist.

Furthermore, if people simply wanted to play a race that looks like a Blood Elf , the option does exist on the Horde. Yet countless years of asking for High Elves should show in general that "hmm, must be more than looks then" because as you state a similar 'aesthetic' is already existing on the Horde side.

The more you continue to only isolate looks or faction without taking both into context, the more you're going to keep misrepresenting what's being requested and the more silly it continues to look when people have attempted multiple to set it straight with you.

It just further and further reinforces you're trying to prevent a specific aesthetic from being on the Alliance with an unusual amount of fervor.

As faction is the sole differentiating factor of worth, the question became whether adding a duplicate to the other faction at the cost of faction diversity and identity was worth it. It is not, duplicating a core race of one faction to the other inevitably degrades both factions, both the faction that loses a monopoly on the core race that constitutes a part of it's identity and the faction that receives the duplicate, who would have lost something of genuine difference to make room for the duplicate and which is being reshaped to be more like the other side. Once it is appreciated how much faction diversity is a concern, the elegance of the Void Elf solution becomes apparent. A genuine variant, not a duplicate.

If faction is the sole differentiating worth, why are racials/mounts/heritage armor not a duplicate of Blood Elves then for the Void Elves. Again, fact is that there's a whole package that comes with all the playable race options.

Now that we're getting into increased customizations, this would be appropriate feature where your arguments would make more sense. But as the overall request has been to have a "race option" of High Elves on Alliance then everything that comes with a race option is of worth.

For the bold: 1) Just because you consider it a genuine variant and not duplicate doesn't mean others do. I've already linked the recent Reddit post where comments (which were upvoted by many more people than the active participants in this thread) people refer to them as purple Blood Elves and see them just as that.

2) Following that Night Elves (Nightborne) and Void Elves (Blood Elves) were given to the opposite and there hasn't been a tearing down from the community of the game as we know it because of "duplicating a core race to the other faction" I'd say you're continuing with hyperbole that has no weight.

Also yes, Nightborne are Night Elves in the same vein that you refer to Blood Elves as of the High Elf race. Highborne was a societal term for ALL Night Elves, it was the societal term for the upper class. Therefore that you admit Nightborne are bringing the core Highborne fantasy over to the Horde that means they took a piece of Night Elf fantasy that previously only belonged to the Alliance and brought it over to the Horde.

The Void Elves do this too by bringing over all the Blood Elf history (and before that, High Elf history before High Elf/Blood Elf split) to the Alliance. Therefore the cat is already out of the bag in what you're trying to say should be prevented the "losing of monopoly of a core race". Alliance no longer has a monopoly on Night Elven things and Horde no longer have a monopoly on High Elven things (they never did to begin with though since High Elves were part of the Alliance since Vanilla WoW).

Highborne (or quel'dorei, meaning "children of noble birth" in Darnassian),[3] were the upper class and a sect of the ancient night elf civilization[4][5] composed of the favored servitors of Queen Azshara.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Highborne

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"DR eye color"?

I think how they mean Dark Ranger eye color is Red? Is it not red anymore currently?