Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Lahis]

let's not pretend Ukraine isn't guilty of war crimes or shady shit. Remember that assassination of Darya Dugina was confirmed to be from Ukraine by US officials. They're also guilty of torturing Russian POWs. Spectators of the unfolding carnage in Ukraine are also ecstatic over Russians suffering the most brutal deaths possible. If you do go see combat footage, footage of Russians graphically bleeding out or getting exploded gets cheered on.

But given Russia is doing all those like a billion times more and started this whole thing, no one is going to really care about Ukrainian atrocities.

Lets be honest. Everybody cheers on dying Russians. Such is the fate of aggressors in an invasion war of genocide.

[PACOX]

That bridge is a legitimate military target, even though the ruskies don't like to admit that fact. It is a major supply artery for the Russian military in their invasion and occupation of southern Ukraine.

The bridge was as much of a 'military target' as a school or hospital soldiers are occupying. The 'point' of attack the bridge wasn't even accomplished. The civilian functions of the bridge took a decent blow while the trains kept chugging along.


There can be multiple truths. Russia is terrible in their actions and often targets civilians as a means to an ends/to paint a narrative. Ukraine targeted civilian infrastructure. That doesn't make Ukraine Russia's equivalent its a lie to try to twist their actions as anything different. Ukraine hasn't been above disrupting civilian life in Crimea to spite Russia in the past.

Wars are detrimental to civilians no matter who you side with. Un modern urban warfare the line
between 'military' and 'civilian' assets is blurred if not unrecognizable at times. One side will always says the school, hospital, bridge, airport, factory, whatever was a military target regardless of how much the military actually relies on it. Sabotage vs terrorism is often defined by one's POV. Ukraine did more damage to civilian life in Crimea than Russian military supply lines. It is what it is.


I think it bothers some people because it makes people re-examine how they view the war, even if it doesn't change that Russian is the bad guy and Ukraine is on the defense. They still want to maintain this Hollywood image of Russia being the bumping Ukraine and Ukraine being the small kid who decided to fight back. Ukraine is still that kid but turns out Ukraine knows some dirty fighting too.

[Jaransan]

So Ukraine is calling Russia a terror state (which it is) while using a suicide bomber to bomb the bridge. Suicide bombing is terror.
I was never a fan of suicide bombings or fanatics.
On a side note, living next to Russia is worse than living in it.

I dont know how to tell you this, but the act of suicide bombing itself is not terrorism. Terrorism is defined by the result you want to achieve being explicitly to strike fear - when your just bombing a military asset and the goal is to deny the asset, thats not by definition terrorism unless you happen to be American and simply define everything unpalatable to you in war as ‘Terrorism’.

Not that suicide bombing is cool or anything, because no soldier should actively be asked to die on purpose when there are alternatives - but for Ukrainians this is very much an existential threat, so while its frowned upon, you can’t really do much when the bottom line is ‘a soldier died in the line of duty successfully completing his/her mission’.

Assuming it WAS a suicide bombing anyway, which is doubtful. Terrorism is when you do something hoping to pressure your foes into doing something out of fear, you know, like the rape camps and threats to keep running those camps if the Ukraine didn’t surrender.

I realize you probably agree and are on the Ukraines side and all - but the incorrect definition of terrorism bugged me >.>

[YUPPIE]

Lets be honest. Everybody cheers on dying Russians.

It's one thing to be cheering for them to be getting their asses kicked in the know, yeah. But to be watching live footage of human beings literally getting split in half from explosions or crawling with all their limbs blown off and bleeding out while screaming in agony - and then viewers cheering "fuck those orcs!" - isn't that kind of straight-up fucked up?

I've been following combat footage hubs and logs and it's been a little more than disturbing how up-in-arms people are over it.

[Gabriel]

The bridge was as much of a 'military target' as a school or hospital soldiers are occupying. The 'point' of attack the bridge wasn't even accomplished. The civilian functions of the bridge took a decent blow while the trains kept chugging along.

Lul. The trains most definitely didn't keep on chugging. They drove one single empty passenger train with 3 carts over it for photo-op, and then closed it.

I think it bothers some people because it makes people re-examine how they view the war, even if it doesn't change that Russian is the bad guy and Ukraine is on the defense. They still want to maintain this Hollywood image of Russia being the bumping Ukraine and Ukraine being the small kid who decided to fight back. Ukraine is still that kid but turns out Ukraine knows some dirty fighting too.

Excellent. We should all learn from them.

[zorkuus]

I think it bothers some people because it makes people re-examine how they view the war, even if it doesn't change that Russian is the bad guy and Ukraine is on the defense. They still want to maintain this Hollywood image of Russia being the bumping Ukraine and Ukraine being the small kid who decided to fight back. Ukraine is still that kid but turns out Ukraine knows some dirty fighting too.

Wtf are you rambling on about?
Dirty fighting? Damn right they need to fight dirty against these war criminals. Infact they should fight much dirtier than this imo. They've been playing quite nice so far.

Russia is in the wrong here 100%. Ukraine is in the wrong 0%. Period. No amount of whataboutism is going to change that.

[Vakna]

Close up video of the state of the tracks on the Kerch bridge. Ain't nothing running on them until they are replaced at the least.

The fact that they took the carriage off but left the wheel base, and how much the tracks are deformed under them tells me that the wheels are probably welded to the track that this point lol.

[zealo]

@PACOX

That you think bombing a major logistics artery supplying an ongoing invasion is the equal to hitting a hospital or a school, says everything about how serious your opinions are worth taking here, which isn't a whole lot.

[Azadina]

It's one thing to be cheering for them to be getting their asses kicked in the know, yeah. But to be watching live footage of human beings literally getting split in half from explosions or crawling with all their limbs blown off and bleeding out while screaming in agony - and then viewers cheering "fuck those orcs!" - isn't that kind of straight-up fucked up?

I've been following combat footage hubs and logs and it's been a little more than disturbing how up-in-arms people are over it.

It's far less fucked up, than fantasizing about nuclear war; in the hopes of getting forcefully drafted and sent to that war. In which no doubt orc like behavior happens. And, in fact, is pretty much guaranteed to be the hidden motivation behind the fantasy.

[Crispin]

So Ukraine is calling Russia a terror state (which it is) while using a suicide bomber to bomb the bridge. Suicide bombing is terror.
I was never a fan of suicide bombings or fanatics.
On a side note, living next to Russia is worse than living in it.

Are you saying that the kamikaze pilots in WW2 were terrorists? fucking lol

[Vakna]

let's not pretend Ukraine isn't guilty of war crimes or shady shit. Remember that assassination of Darya Dugina was confirmed to be from Ukraine by US officials. They're also guilty of torturing Russian POWs. Spectators of the unfolding carnage in Ukraine are also ecstatic over Russians suffering the most brutal deaths possible. If you do go see combat footage, footage of Russians graphically bleeding out or getting exploded gets cheered on.

But given Russia is doing all those like a billion times more and started this whole thing, no one is going to really care about Ukrainian atrocities.

IMO when you are starting a war like this and willingly taking part in wanton aggression for no reason, you can't be the target of a war crime. The Russian military are subhuman scum, they are nothing, less than nothing. I would value the life of a random ant in my garden over the lives of an entire battalion of Russian troops. They have ceased to be considered human, and therefore in my eyes have no human rights. War crimes against insects isn't a thing.

Given the track record of The Hague in this conflict and their willingness or ability to enforce international law, my opinion here holds just as much official gravitas as theirs - just in case anyone comes up with "your opinion doesn't mean anything". Well, neither does The Hague's apparently.

[PACOX]

Are you saying that the kamikaze pilots in WW2 were terrorists? fucking lol

How is that even relevant? They didn't even say Ukraine was bad, but that they don't care for the tactic, which many states do define as an act of terrorism whether the target is civilian or not. That's a whole different topic that many countries don't agree on even internally, let alone when examining history...as if Imperial Japan was somehow diminished in their comment.


Doesn't matter because evidence points away from the bridge explosion being a suicide bomb.

- - - Updated - - -

IMO when you are starting a war like this and willingly taking part in wanton aggression for no reason, you can't be the target of a war crime. The Russian military are subhuman scum, they are nothing, less than nothing. I would value the life of a random ant in my garden over the lives of an entire battalion of Russian troops. They have ceased to be considered human, and therefore in my eyes have no human rights. War crimes against insects isn't a thing.

Given the track record of The Hague in this conflict and their willingness or ability to enforce international law, my opinion here holds just as much official gravitas as theirs - just in case anyone comes up with "your opinion doesn't mean anything". Well, neither does The Hague's apparently.

Wait what? No. War crimes are war crimes, period. Consequences are contextual though. A country being invaded shouldn't face the same scrunity for booby traps vs an invader, does not make booby traps okay. The only person claiming Ukraine should face international consequences is Putin. All other critism is related to the how the move alters the dynamics of the war (if any change at all) or commentary on the acts of warfare in general.

[YUPPIE]

at the end of the day, this is just a cycle in humanity and that's why dehumanization is wrong.

We would've genocided the Japanese and Germans out of existence if we held on to these dehumanizing beliefs. But given those two are seen as relatively alright and a part of the civilized world now, Russia will follow suit after this war ends.

It just needs Putin's death the same way the Axis powers went on the right track after their heads were executed (or in Hitler's case, suicide). That's all. And I don't see anyone objecting to that notion often.

[Iphie]

IMO when you are starting a war like this and willingly taking part in wanton aggression for no reason, you can't be the target of a war crime. The Russian military are subhuman scum, they are nothing, less than nothing. I would value the life of a random ant in my garden over the lives of an entire battalion of Russian troops. They have ceased to be considered human, and therefore in my eyes have no human rights. War crimes against insects isn't a thing.

Given the track record of The Hague in this conflict and their willingness or ability to enforce international law, my opinion here holds just as much official gravitas as theirs - just in case anyone comes up with "your opinion doesn't mean anything". Well, neither does The Hague's apparently.

Good thing you don't decide, also, good job learning how to dehumanise a group from the russians, I'm truly impressed. War crimes are war crimes, if Ukrainians started to summarily execute PoWs they'd be guilty of war crimes, regardless of what the PoWs are guilty of themselves.

As for the Hague, they only have jurisdiction where they get help from the local authorities. (Btw, neither Ukraine nor russia recognises the Hague...)

[YUPPIE]

about why the hague has no jurisdiction or say, and why most of the world has nothing meaningful to add:

remember why carefully, and why Joe Biden is trying to have this conflict end in such a way Russia loses but Putin can at least retire comfortably ala Pol Pot.

That is considered the ideal and only outcome.

[XDurionX]

I just want to illustrate that comparison is by no means random. The fact Putin namedropped Harry Potter indirectly when comparing himself to Rowling earlier this year makes me legitimately believe he's not just a fictional enthusiast, but given his mindset, definitely looks up to figures like Voldemort.

Citing a children's book is perfectly describing your grasp of geopolitics.

[Ivanstone]

I realize you probably agree and are on the Ukraines side and all - but the incorrect definition of terrorism bugged me >.>

You should take a look at his posting history.

He is very much not on Ukraine's side.

At least he can worship Putin while comfortable living in Sweden.

[Kralljin]

We would've genocided the Japanese and Germans out of existence if we held on to these dehumanizing beliefs. But given those two are seen as relatively alright and a part of the civilized world now, Russia will follow suit after this war ends.

Difference is that both Germany and Japan surrendered unconditionally, Russia will not surrender, let alone unconditionally.

And also quite important, Germany was a useful tool during the upcoming cold war, which made comitting to ultimate vengeance not so smart because they would've lost a potentially useful ally or at worst, see germany turn fully towards communism.
Without the threat of communism, it was quite likely that Germany would've been turned into a giant potato field, because deindustrializing *and* separating Germany was absolutely on the table as an option post war.

And even then, Germany was still split and not a fully sovereign nation for almost half a decade, which is absolutely a nightmarish scenario for any nation state.

That's the crucial difference, while i'm not going to engage about this "hurrdurr Russian are orks" talk for that reason, i also am going to deny that going easy on Russia because of Germany / Japan is also faulty because those nations were fully occupied and frankly not sovereign for decades.

[PACOX]

Difference is that both Germany and Japan surrendered unconditionally, Russia will not surrender, let alone unconditionally.

And also quite important, Germany was a useful tool during the upcoming cold war, which made comitting to ultimate vengeance not so smart because they would've lost a potentially useful ally or at worst, see germany turn fully towards communism.
Without the threat of communism, it was quite likely that Germany would've been turned into a giant potato field, because deindustrializing *and* separating Germany was absolutely on the table as an option post war.

And even then, Germany was still split and not a fully sovereign nation for almost half a decade, which is absolutely a nightmarish scenario for any nation state.

That's the crucial difference, while i'm not going to engage about this "hurrdurr Russian are orks" talk for that reason, i also am going to deny that going easy on Russia because of Germany / Japan is also faulty because those nations were fully occupied and frankly not sovereign for decades.

I know/hope your argument isn't "dehumanizing Russians is fine but not the genocidal fascist of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan."

It kind of comes off that way but ultimately kind of reinforces YUPPIE's point. If people who lived under Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were still treated like humans then so can Russians. You don't get to do warcrimes (which Ukraine hasn't really done any AFAIK) no matter which side of history you think you are on.


War crimes are war crimes because we as an international community view many of the acts as depraved even when people are actively shooting at one another.

[Kralljin]

I know/hope your argument isn't "dehumanizing Russians is fine but not the genocidal fascist of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan."

No, not really.

The point is pretty simple, one cannot go that easy on Russia because one is not able to exercise the same amount of control over Russia as the Allies did over Germany / Japan once this is over, that is the issue with the Germany / Japan <=> Russia ananlogy.
If any aid from the Allies had to gone to fund any dubious shit on Germany's / Japan's part, the Allies would've moved in hard and cleaned up that shit.

That's kinda the problem, i don't want to further demonize Russia, but i also am not naive to just blindly give them aid post war because the West sure as shit cannot enforce that any of those funds don't vanish on Oligarch's bank account or even worse to (re)fund their military.