Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Dark Succ]

snip

Umbric is probably toeing the party line though, so it's natural for him to say that. I think he's lying through his teeth, since most non-frontline Sin'dorei and Quel'dorei frown at both factions, but they are too weak to stand on their own for now. Many elves hate the Alliance thanks to people like Arthas, Jaina, and Garithos. I am sure there are some who dislike the Horde as well, since one might think that they are no better than the Alliance, drawing their exhausted people for wars that aren't their own. People of Quel'thalas look after themselves first and others second.

Which is why I don't understand the Silver Covenant. They seem more eager to serve the Alliance than their people.

Also, Quel'dorei messing with Void seems wrong to me. They refused to deal with Fel, so I'd think they would completely be against the Void.

As much as an Alliance fan I am, I consider playing Blood Elves to be a better choice than the Silver Covenant Quel'dorei pro-high elf fans want. Or even the Void Elves, who are far more interesting than High Elves.

Kinda unrelated, but I expect some void elves and Alleria to be Kael'thas'd in a form of call back by Blizzard. Elves don't get along well with dark powers.

[Broflake]

The vast majority of the High elves are Alliance-aligned. Stop pretending they aren't.

Cool, do you have any lore which states this? What you see in game is not representative of the lore at all times. For example, Goldshire is significantly larger and a significant distance away from Stormwind. On the other hand, it is extremely small in game. We have nothing that suggests where the majority lie in terms of their alignment.

You can be both neutral AND Alliance aligned. See Maiev, Khadgar, Malfurion prior to BFA but also Anduin in MoP.

Maiev, Malfurion, and Anduin are all alliance aligned and not neutral.
Neutral would mean they hold no loyalty to either group, which is the case of Khadgar. It is not correct to suggest such a thing in these cases.

High elves have been hunted down by the forsakens and the Horde since Vanilla.

Their people have also been hunted down by humans, spied on by night elves and dwarves, and attacked by trolls and other beings. They have also been subject to night elf racism.
This means nothing, however, as times change over time.

The whole world is neutral to the Horde only because Blizzard is lazy but also for gameplay purposes.

Except that they are neutral based upon lore and it is justified accordingly. Such as Dalaran reaching out to the Blood elves to have them rejoin.

And the Stormwind high elves, 7th Legion elves, the Allerian elves, and numerous Dalaran, Alliance aligned elves would like to have a word with you.

The Allerian stronghold elves are arguably neutral as seen with Auric Sunchaser who is neutral in WotLK and is seeking to reunite high elf and blood elf groups. As such, it is unknown where they currently lie in their alignments.
Numerous dalaran high elves are neutral to the Horde or friendly.

It isn't a testament about who lies where in terms of alignment or how many.
You can be annoyed as much as you want, but that is the fact of the matter.

Of course, if we want to be as literal as possible, one can say 90% of the race is Horde aligned.

[bdlovelace]

The only difference is that High Elves are a group on Alliance. Like that is what makes them unique.

so what? the race is already playable

the fogsail freebooters, a human pirate faction, fight for the horde now. they even offer a quest called 'fogsail for a day' during assaults to go out and kill as many alliance as you can

https://www.wowhead.com/npc=146773/f...delviewer:10+0

they arent even the first group of humans to do so. should horde humans be a thing now?

[FlubberPuddy]

so what? the race is already playable

the fogsail freebooters, a human pirate faction, fight for the horde now. they even offer a quest called 'fogsail for a day' during assaults to go out and kill as many alliance as you can

https://www.wowhead.com/npc=146773/f...delviewer:10+0

they arent even the first group of humans to do so. should horde humans be a thing now?

Talk about the freebooters or any other of those human groups when they’ve fought and stayed steadfast allies of the the greater faction for multiple expansions.

That’s the difference between High Elves on the Alliance and these once in a blue moon groups of “horde humans” .

Is there a human as part of one of the Horde Island expedition teams? Cuz there’s definitely a High Elf as part of an Alliance one.

All the High Elves in the Alliance have been and continue to be steadfast allies. Not just opportunists like the groups you mention.

But you only ever chime in when you feel like there’s a quick slight you can make do this post of yours isn’t surprising at all.

It just continues to show your lack of objectivity.

[Manariel]

Personal biased opinion. Nothing more. To me void elves are far more intriguing than a diminishing group of elves with no real culture or society.

Please. Go on, tell me which sub-fraction of the Thalassian Elves was always able to field equally large armies as the Sin'doreï in WoW history. Not once, but everytime they were displayed. Here's an hint : they aren't purple.

Also, have you been to Telogrus Rift ? Can you tell me what the culture of the Void Elves is ? Because it seems to me to be "Blood Elves culture but with Void Magic sprinkled on it". Which is very distinct from the High Elves, who have chosen to distance themselves from the excesses of the larger Thalassian culture and, by keeping their name, have changed its meaning and legacy over time.

Which is why I don't understand the Silver Covenant. They seem more eager to serve the Alliance than their people.

Also, Quel'dorei messing with Void seems wrong to me. They refused to deal with Fel, so I'd think they would completely be against the Void.

Because the Alliance are their people, not the Sin'doreï. They put values and principles over blood and inherited loyalities. That's why they are heroes of the Alliance when the Blood Elves are just despicable scum. And I agree that having High Elves pilgrim in telogrus makes no sense, especially when the devs didn't even bother switching their lines from the BE here.

Cool, do you have any lore which states this? What you see in game is not representative of the lore at all times. For example, Goldshire is significantly larger and a significant distance away from Stormwind. On the other hand, it is extremely small in game. We have nothing that suggests where the majority lie in terms of their alignment.

100% of High Elves NPC are Alliance. None are Horde, and the perhaps two who could be High Elves on the Horde have zero lore and are basically just mistakes that the devs never bothered themselves to correct. And it's jsut false to claim that the High Elves presence is small in game. They are extremely numerous. Far more than Worgens or Draeneï or even Gnomes, a core race of the Alliance !

You can meet a lot in Stormwind, in Quel'danil, some in Dwarven and Night Elves zones (for the latter, at least you can in Classic, as early as Auberdine), Dalaran, the Ghostlands, Dragonblight (or whatever the English name is the the zone with the Wyrmrest Accord faction in Northrend), Icecrown (Argent Tournament), Pandaria (Landfall + Isle of Thunder), the Outland (mostly in Allerian Stronghold) and Suramar. From the top of my head.

[Dark Succ]

Because the Alliance are their people, not the Sin'doreï. They put values and principles over blood and inherited loyalities. That's why they are heroes of the Alliance when the Blood Elves are just despicable scum.

Well, when you breed with humans enough times they do become your people I guess.

100% of High Elves NPC are Alliance. None are Horde, and the perhaps two who could be High Elves on the Horde have zero lore and are basically just mistakes that the devs never bothered themselves to correct. And it's jsut false to claim that the High Elves presence is small in game. They are extremely numerous. Far more than Worgens or Draeneï or even Gnomes, a core race of the Alliance!

Not really. AFAIK They are are many neutrals among them, although the ones who are affilated with the Alliance outnumber those who aren't. And high elves sure as shit do not outnumber the Gilneans, Draenei or the Gnomes. Say what you will about him, but Arthas knew his shit.

I don't mind if Playable High Elves ever become a thing, since I cut any connections I had with retail in favor of classic, but I don't think they offer enough uniqueness in the face of Blood Elves to be developed.

[Strippling]

Please. Go on, tell me which sub-fraction of the Thalassian Elves was always able to field equally large armies as the Sin'doreï in WoW history. Not once, but everytime they were displayed. Here's an hint : they aren't purple.

Never have the high elves fielded armies equally as large as the blood elves. In small excursions they can manage a few numbers, but even then half the time you see them alongside dalaran humans to make up their lack of numbers. I think you're mistaking them for a thriving society. They don't even have a city of their own, they literally squat in other cities.

Also, have you been to Telogrus Rift ? Can you tell me what the culture of the Void Elves is ? Because it seems to me to be "Blood Elves culture but with Void Magic sprinkled on it". Which is very distinct from the High Elves, who have chosen to distance themselves from the excesses of the larger Thalassian culture and, by keeping their name, have changed its meaning and legacy over time.

Perhaps you haven't seen the high elf scholars hanging about on Telogrus Rift. For a group who apparently "abhor" blood elves, they sure seem comfortable there. Alliance high elf exiles haven't changed the meaning and legacy of high elves... the blood elves have. The high elf exiles are literally bygones of the past, dwindling away with no culture or real society. They have no city of their own, they're nigh extinct and are diluting their posterity with humans. The high elf exiles legacy is one of traitor-sim to their people, to their family. A legacy of abandoning their people. On top of that, they are far from "pure", as we saw the high elves of Quel'lithien lodge turn wretched for abusing seductive magic.

100% of High Elves NPC are Alliance. None are Horde, and the perhaps two who could be High Elves on the Horde have zero lore and are basically just mistakes that the devs never bothered themselves to correct. And it's jsut false to claim that the High Elves presence is small in game. They are extremely numerous. Far more than Worgens or Draeneï or even Gnomes, a core race of the Alliance !

100% false. There are high elf NPCs who are neutral, such as the high elf in Ratchet who actually hates the alliance and I'm pretty sure he gives you a quest to kill alliance sailors.

Also, I can factually state that Worgens, Draenei and Gnomes are substantially more present than high elves. A quick search on wowpedia of Draenei/Gnome/Draenei NPCs shows you that there is significantly more NPCs of these races as opposed to high elf NPCs (literally, significantly more). If you're too lazy to do the search and would prefer your head canon then I can post links to back my claims. If you choose to remain stubborn though and hold on to this false notion (fanfictioned) then I ask you simply link your sources evidencing high elves are "extremely numerous, far more than Worgens or Draenei or even Gnomes" (to quote you word for word).

[scubi666stacy]

(SNIP) Yet that's not something shared by High Elves and Blood Elves. We see post-Sunwell pilgrimage that events such as the Purge of Dalaran in MoP and its continued remembrance in the recent War Campaign of BfA continue to hold the animosity that High Elves and Blood Elves have toward each other.

We still do not see High Elves 'wishing we were back home' to Silvermoon and we still do not see Blood Elves 'wishing their High Elven brethren would return'. On the contrary we actually have the opposite.

We have characters like Vereesa saying she hopes the Blood Elves will one day make a return to the Alliance and Magister Umbric showing they never agreed it was right to join the Horde and stating 'the Alliance are where our people belong.'

So if you wanna bring up NPC rambles then it reinforces that there's a big schism still between High Elves of the Alliance and Blood Elves of the Horde and more so than not a repeated comment of the idea of Blood Elves being back with the Alliance and that Silvermoon is not a "melting pot" of Thalassians. It is Horde territory and Horde-owned and plays a central role to Blood Elves more than any other Thalassian variant.

I don't see Void Elves or High Elves going on and on within the Alliance about great the Sunwell and Silvermoon is and how they miss it.

Even if we ignore the fact that all High Elves have been allowed to visit the Sunwell - how is this the argument for playable High Elves? It only shows that High Elves are morons deluded by their newly found ideology, splitting hairs about morality in the face of survival in extreme situations. Never would want to play such a holier-than-thou hypocrite.

Void Elves have been thrown out of Quel'thalas because of their Void shenanigans. Not hard to understand why they react this way. They literally have nowhere to go. Also, some Alliance NPCs discussing the Sunwell is probably just a waste of code and money for Blizzard.

[FlubberPuddy]

Even if we ignore the fact that all High Elves have been allowed to visit the Sunwell - how is this the argument for playable High Elves? It only shows that High Elves are morons deluded by their newly found ideology, splitting hairs about morality in the face of survival in extreme situations. Never would want to play such a holier-than-thou hypocrite.

Void Elves have been thrown out of Quel'thalas because of their Void shenanigans. Not hard to understand why they react this way. They literally have nowhere to go. Also, some Alliance NPCs discussing the Sunwell is probably just a waste of code and money for Blizzard.

We're not ignoring it, I literally mention it in the 2nd sentence of the portion you quoted. What you're doing is ignoring all the things that happened after-the-fact and all the canon sayings NPCs are saying.

All the mentions of the schism between High Elves and Blood Elves is merely there to draw the contrast to Obelisk's commentary on Stormwind being a melting pot. While Stormwind might be that, Silvermoon most definitely is not.

The Sunwell itself isn't even located in Silvermoon.

And it's cool if you don't wanna play them and that's how you see em. I see Ogres as dumbass fat shits and I wouldn't ever play em either. I wouldn't deny others of it though, but I guess that's the difference here.

[Ignaz]

Even if we ignore the fact that all High Elves have been allowed to visit the Sunwell - how is this the argument for playable High Elves? It only shows that High Elves are morons deluded by their newly found ideology, splitting hairs about morality in the face of survival in extreme situations. Never would want to play such a holier-than-thou hypocrite.

So, in order to "survive" blood elves sucked the lives of living beings.
Mmm... The way i see it, blood elves did that to satisfy their addiction (a questionable action) even when there are ways to end that addiction.

Being faithful to your moral principles and beliefs does not make you a hypocrite, quite the opposite

[matrix123mko]

so what? the race is already playable

the fogsail freebooters, a human pirate faction, fight for the horde now. they even offer a quest called 'fogsail for a day' during assaults to go out and kill as many alliance as you can

https://www.wowhead.com/npc=146773/f...delviewer:10+0

they arent even the first group of humans to do so. should horde humans be a thing now?

Well, maybe yes.

- - - Updated - - -

So, in order to "survive" blood elves sucked the lives of living beings.
Mmm... The way i see it, blood elves did that to satisfy their addiction (a questionable action) even when there are ways to end that addiction.

Children and elders died without mana. It is a reason to kill living beings. Are you vegetarian?

Being faithful to your moral principles and beliefs does not make you a hypocrite, quite the opposite

They work with void elves. This makes them hypocrites.

[Ignaz]

Children and elders died without mana. It is a reason to kill living beings.

Children and elders are a exception, not a normality. Like newborns of drug addicted mothers; doctors have to apply small doses of the drug the mother used. Even so, the drug addiction of the mother is morally wrong. The same applies to blood elves.

Are you vegetarian?

Nope, I am not.

They work with void elves. This makes them hypocrites.

why? they are not killing living beings to satisfy their addiction.
The point of dislike of high elves towards the behavior of blood elves was by the dispossession of the vital force of their victims, not by the use of magic.
That's what the sunwell was for, when they were all HE

[FlubberPuddy]

They work with void elves. This makes them hypocrites.

They're only this way because Blizzard wrote them that way. So we should probably alert those people in the Lore forums that talk about the writers making no sense of what's been going on

[matrix123mko]

Children and elders are a exception, not a normality. Like newborns of drug addicted mothers; doctors have to apply small doses of the drug the mother used. Even so, the drug addiction of the mother is morally wrong. The same applies to blood elves.

All elves turn old after a time. It is a problem.

[Thalassian Bob]

They're only this way because Blizzard wrote them that way. So we should probably alert those people in the Lore forums that talk about the writers making no sense of what's been going on

You could say the same about the high elves' ridiculous contempt for the blood elves "draining mana from living creatures like vampires" despite most of them probably eating meat.

I think both case of affairs are whiffs on the part of the writers (both painting the Alliance Quel'dorei as hypocrites), but if you want to complain about one thing, you have to understand people (such as myself) complaining about the other.

I always thought a much better reason for the schism between Sin and Quel would be the blood elves accepting help from the Horde. An organisation which in previous iterations had waged war on Quel'Thalas and was probably responsible for the worst losses the high elves had suffered since the troll wars (and, of course, before Arthas' genocide).

If the Silver Covenant was made up of elves who had a burning hatred for the Horde because they had lost family to the orcs and trolls, I think they would be a lot more sympathetic.

Children and elders are a exception, not a normality. Like newborns of drug addicted mothers; doctors have to apply small doses of the drug the mother used. Even so, the drug addiction of the mother is morally wrong. The same applies to blood elves.

It's an "addiction" none of them knew they had and no one alive was likely even responsible for starting it. I don't think even old Anasterian was alive (or in a position of power at least) when the Sunwell was created.

The blood elves had to stave off a crippling - and at times deadly - addiction whilst also fighting an impossible war that threatened the end of their entire species. I think draining a few non-sapient creatures of their mana to deal with the addiction whilst dragging their society back from the brink is perfectly justifiable.

The high elves away from Quel'Thalas, like Vereesa, had the luxury of dealing with their pangs in much safer environments.

[FlubberPuddy]

You could say the same about the high elves' ridiculous contempt for the blood elves "draining mana from living creatures like vampires" despite most of them probably eating meat.

I think both case of affairs are whiffs on the part of the writers (both painting the Alliance Quel'dorei as hypocrites), but if you want to complain about one thing, you have to understand people (such as myself) complaining about the other.

I always thought a much better reason for the schism between Sin and Quel would be the blood elves accepting help from the Horde. An organisation which in previous iterations had waged war on Quel'Thalas and was probably responsible for the worst losses the high elves had suffered since the troll wars (and, of course, before Arthas' genocide).

If the Silver Covenant was made up of elves who had a burning hatred for the Horde because they had lost family to the orcs and trolls, I think they would be a lot more sympathetic.

Ah, I wrote that post in jest ! I was poking fun at some of the posters over in the Lore forum who only seem to function when there's complaints to do about the writers with how they're writing certain characters/groups arcs.

I am pointing out merely that this is all a fictional world where none of these characters/groups have motivations of their own accord, it's all at the behest of what the dev team implements.

But I do agree with your post that a schism formed from the foundation of hatred for the opposing faction fits more, and actually I think that is what Blizzard has been doing after TBC. In MoP the Purge of Dalaran involved the factional allegiances to a greater degree than simply High Elf/Blood Elf hate (though that did still exist). You see it during the Reckoning bit with Taran Zhu as well -> despite there being Blood Elf soldiers vs High Elf soldiers the squabbles brought up are faction-based (Vereesa referencing the death of Rhonin aka Mana bombing Theramore) (Jaina mentioning how 'they' [Horde] have squandered every attempt at peace).

More than likely because at TBC's culmination the Blood Elves are no longer the "mana vampires" they were introduced as.

Even when the Purge is brought up again during the War Campaign, the Sunreavers are aiming their vengeance at the Alliance as a whole and not merely the High Elves nor only Jaina.

Magister Umbric in his commentary makes mention that he and his group never agreed that joining the Horde was good/right and feels the Alliance are where the Thalassians belong.

Vereesa in the Three Sisters comic talks about Blood Elves making the "right choice" (paraphrasing) about coming back to the Alliance and Sylvanas scoffing that they're where they want to be (in the Horde).

So I think we are actually seeing that, and Silver Covenant has always been against the Horde in general, forming up because they refused to accept the Council allowing Sunreavers (Horde Blood Elves) into the city of Dalaran.

But overall I do agree, that's a much better focus of hate (the factions) for the High Elf/Blood Elf schism!

[Thalassian Bob]

Ah, I wrote that post in jest ! I was poking fun at some of the posters over in the Lore forum who only seem to function when there's complaints to do about the writers with how they're writing certain characters/groups arcs.

I am pointing out merely that this is all a fictional world where none of these characters/groups have motivations of their own accord, it's all at the behest of what the dev team implements.

But I do agree with your post that a schism formed from the foundation of hatred for the opposing faction fits more, and actually I think that is what Blizzard has been doing after TBC. In MoP the Purge of Dalaran involved the factional allegiances to a greater degree than simply High Elf/Blood Elf hate (though that did still exist). You see it during the Reckoning bit with Taran Zhu as well -> despite there being Blood Elf soldiers vs High Elf soldiers the squabbles brought up are faction-based (Vereesa referencing the death of Rhonin aka Mana bombing Theramore) (Jaina mentioning how 'they' [Horde] have squandered every attempt at peace).

More than likely because at TBC's culmination the Blood Elves are no longer the "mana vampires" they were introduced as.

Even when the Purge is brought up again during the War Campaign, the Sunreavers are aiming their vengeance at the Alliance as a whole and not merely the High Elves nor only Jaina.

Magister Umbric in his commentary makes mention that he and his group never agreed that joining the Horde was good/right and feels the Alliance are where the Thalassians belong.

Vereesa in the Three Sisters comic talks about Blood Elves making the "right choice" (paraphrasing) about coming back to the Alliance and Sylvanas scoffing that they're where they want to be (in the Horde).

So I think we are actually seeing that, and Silver Covenant has always been against the Horde in general, forming up because they refused to accept the Council allowing Sunreavers (Horde Blood Elves) into the city of Dalaran.

But overall I do agree, that's a much better focus of hate (the factions) for the High Elf/Blood Elf schism!

Ah, okay. Fair enough!

You make some good points. It's just a shame the Silver Covenant are lead by Vereesa and she acts as the face of their order. Her character and motivations were already established before Wrath by one (not-so-great) writer. And her resistance to Sunreaver admission to Dalaran seems a lot more petty and personal than I would prefer - basically basing her entire dislike of blood elves on one individual - her mad cousin. Of course, after her husband gets blown up her motivations become a lot more understandable. I would have preferred they were lead by some grizzled veteran of the Second War who lost their family to the Amani or something.

But, we must play the had we're dealt when it comes to canon, I suppose. But, yeah, the high elves tolerating the void elves because they both serve under a common banner and are both exiled from Silvermoon is enough motivation for the two groups to cooperate for me. The high elves who would hang about with Ren'dorei are probably more anti-Horde than they are anti-Silvermoon (unlike Hawkspear's ilk).

[Broflake]

100% of High Elves NPC are Alliance. None are Horde, and the perhaps two who could be High Elves on the Horde have zero lore and are basically just mistakes that the devs never bothered themselves to correct.

The two who are high elves on the Horde don't need to have any lore. They are there, and that is all that matters. You claiming them as a mistake is just your opinion. Secondly,. no, you are false in this regards. Auric sunchaser and his high elves are neutral, and are not allied with the alliance.
The Dalaran high elves are not allied with the alliance, they are neutral.
You have no lore to support this suggestion Manariel, so I am unsure where you got this notion.
It is even stated by the encyclopedia that the high elves are not united.

And it's jsut false to claim that the High Elves presence is small in game. They are extremely numerous. Far more than Worgens or Draeneï or even Gnomes, a core race of the Alliance

I mean...Worgen, Dranei, and gnomes all have zones to themselves where as high elves do not.

[elbleuet]

The two who are high elves on the Horde don't need to have any lore. They are there, and that is all that matters. You claiming them as a mistake is just your opinion. Secondly,. no, you are false in this regards. Auric sunchaser and his high elves are neutral, and are not allied with the alliance.

Neutrality means nothing in WoW, so please stop with that nonsense.

He is firmly Alliance, and the Allerian elves are Alliance.

You can be neutral, and Alliance too. See Khadgar, Arator, Velen, Malfurion and even Tyrande in Legion.
But ofc, you can be Horde and neutral too. See Thrall, Baine, Liadrin, Halduron, Aethas & Vol'Jin for example.

The Dalaran high elves are not allied with the alliance, they are neutral.

They're Alliance, and neutral toward the Horde.

[Ignaz]

All elves turn old after a time. It is a problem.

it would be a problem if they aged quickly, but they are a long-lived race. In all that time they can find a thousand ways to cure their addiction

- - - Updated - - -

It's an "addiction" none of them knew they had and no one alive was likely even responsible for starting it. I don't think even old Anasterian was alive (or in a position of power at least) when the Sunwell was created.

Ignorance does not exempt them from their actions. They are addicted, it is a fact; and even after knowing it, they want to remain addicted and drain the lives of other living beings to satiate their addiction.
Of course, after the sunwell restoration they stopped draining lives, but I am sure that if sunwell had not been restored, they would continue draining lives.

The blood elves had to stave off a crippling - and at times deadly - addiction whilst also fighting an impossible war that threatened the end of their entire species. I think draining a few non-sapient creatures of their mana to deal with the addiction whilst dragging their society back from the brink is perfectly justifiable.

The weight of their morals is not in doing the logical thing to save some lives, it is in choosing to satisfy their addiction through the dispossession of the vital force of other living beings (it doesn't matter if they were non-sapient). If they exclusively did it to save the children and the old ones, it could be justifiable.

The high elves away from Quel'Thalas, like Vereesa, had the luxury of dealing with their pangs in much safer environments.

like exile? you have to understand that an immigrant does not have a good time in his first moments, and if you add their ailments... it is something less pleasant.