Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Hitei]

And yet somehow we had in TBC and WoTLK and actual gameplay did not end there.

See this argument, it just does not fly. We already had it and somehow the world (of Warcraft) did not end there.

It really sort of did though. As soon as you got flying in TBC the world became a complete non-threat, which especially at the time was a major difference. Even areas full of elites that had been extremely threatening and dangerous areas were suddenly "lol, just casually fly right over to the thing you need." It also immediately destroyed any real sense of zone navigation, because even a fairly complex zone to navigate like Blade's Edge got turned into "alt tab while flying in a straight line directly to objective".

I think it's fine to like flying, but also it very, very literally takes the player out of the world. Before it you have a bunch of actual gameplay choices "do I enter this area from the front or is it easier to get to the objective from the side entrance", "Would it be quicker to jump down off of here or is that gonna aggro a bunch of things at the bottom and be a hassle?" "Should I take the long way around or just cut through these mobs and try to avoid getting dismounted?" "There's a herb/minning node up on that cliff/over that little mini canyon... is it worth looping around to get up there/to the other side? Which ore/herb is it?"

When you having flying, all of those gameplay choice moments become "lol doesn't matter, fly straight to the thing". A huge chunk of gameplay does end.

Adding actual flying was a massive mistake. They should have made flying mounts able to jump very high and then glide, either like a lower altitude Aviana's or like the goblin jump-pack things that were sometimes around in BfA. Then at least you'd have to consider approach and how to get around, as well as where you're going to land each time.

[therumblings]

I think they did flying great this expansion. I think renown is the best version of timegating, if they're going to keep timegating stuff. Putting flying in with renown as apart of 9.0 would have been perfect. I'm hoping 10.0 has flying at launch as part of some questing/renown type system.

Because this way, at least you are forced to experience the gameplay without flight, at least once, for a short period of time (Just a few weeks into max level/the .0 patch), without being forced to arbitrarily grind reputation and achievements.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

God these 9.1.5 changes are frustrating. If they were in the expansion to begin with, I probably wouldn’t have unsubscribed. Least before the lawsuit and crap. Swap between covenants and use all the transmog at once? That’s motivating as hell to play and collect them. Anima isn’t a horrible grind? I’ll actually grind anima. Level up in Torghast and Maw skip? Hello leveling alts. Possible legacy raid tuning? Fucking finally.

God these deva need to get their head out of their asses and know when to listen to the players.

[Gaidax]

It really sort of did though. As soon as you got flying in TBC the world became a complete non-threat,

Yes because modern expansions questing zones are such a threat...

You really need to sit back and just consider this - the open world is a walk in the park, it's meant to be a walk in the part because it needs to be appropriate for some random Billy or Timmy that barely can manage 3 buttons and just log in once in a while to whack some shit.

This "but flying would make world not a threat" is like... what the heck are you even talking about mate??? You know why they don't give flying? Because it would make world be small... that it.

Imagine flying in Korthia - you'd get across the zone in 40 seconds flat.

The effort solution for this is to make zones BIGGER and split them to FFA and flying mount reachable only zones. The easy solution - let's make stamp-sized zone and disable flying.

Flying is not the issue, zones themselves are. They are high fidelity, a lot of art and assets, filled with treasures events and mobs, but they are too small. What is needed is zones like Hellfire Peninsula where you have vast areas of nothing in-between landmarks and locales. There is a feeling of vastness there that IMO is lost with modern zones somewhat.

Not every square inch must be populated with props and shit, it's not bloody New York. Scope is also important.

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That part of the announcment has really gotten to you, eh?

Missed this one and yes.


This is at the base of their famous statue in front of HQ:



And then they wonder what the fuck has happened...

[Hitei]

Yes because modern expansions questing zones are such a threat...

You really need to sit back and just consider this - the open world is a walk in the park, it's meant to be a walk in the part because it needs to be appropriate for some random Billy or Timmy that barely can manage 3 buttons and just log in once in a while to whack some shit.

This "but flying would make world not a threat" is like... what the heck are you even talking about mate??? You know why they don't give flying? Because it would make world be small... that it.

Imagine flying in Korthia - you'd get across the zone in 40 seconds flat.

The effort solution for this is to make zones BIGGER and split them to FFA and flying mount reachable only zones. The easy solution - let's make stam-sized zone and disable flying.

Flying is not the issue, zones themselves are. They are high fidelity, a lot of art and assets, filled with treasures events and mobs, but they are too small. What is needed is zones like Hellfire Peninsula where you have vast areas of nothing in-between landmarks and locales. There is a feeling of vastness there that IMO is lost with modern zones somewhat.

Not every square inch must be populated with props and shit, it's not bloody New York. Scope is also important.

This is woefully ignorant of basic design process, but gets parroted constantly. The effort solution is the current one. Designing smaller, extremely dense zones with convoluted pathing and terrain, naturally varied verticality and a large amount of detail. The low effort solution is to make big zones, because all a big zone requires is open space where nothing is happening. Look at the big zones. Uldum. Dragonblight. The Barrens. Nagrand. Tanaris. Elwynn Do you see how little effort that is? instead of keeping that density, you just add open, blank, 90% flat space between the bits of terrain with basic grass/rocks sprinkled around and the occasional random mob spawn. It's easy. A complete joke. It would probably take the current zone design team literally a couple days to make a zone like Hellfire Pennisula or the Barrens with current tech.

They don't give players flying because they don't like flying existing because with it, you might as well not put any effort into zones and instead just pump out those big open flat boring zones, because any and all terrain is the exact same with flying: just shit below you that you go straight over. And they don't make big zones for the sake of the gameplay experience, because while it's very, very, very easy to make open empty space for the sake of scale, all it does is add a bunch of excess travel time and empty terrain for players to cross over, Like Dragonblight where 99% of any time spent in the zone is just crossing over ice and snow to try and get from one small bit of actual content to the next bit on the other side of a giant empty white field with (just like flying) zero thought or interaction, because it's just empty space to go straight through.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

"Gameplay first"


Yeah and we all know gameplay has only one lens of viewing it................not.

[huth]

That's also a great idea. They said they didn't wanna do that for Demon Hunters IIRC, which they should still do, but that would also work great for Kyrians.

Even makes a certain amount of sense, since Kyrians need to earn their wings first.

[Sondrelk]

The problem with flying isnt that you can move in three dimensions, or even that you can skip stuff that you might normally have to stick to the ground for, the problem is how extremely trivial the current incarnation makes it.

Flying is faster than ground mounts, more versatile than flight paths, and can be done from close anywhere assuming Blizzard flips the switch allowing it.
There is no inherent gameplay to flying. There isnt any question made before using it like there might be when you decide between other modes of transportation in the game.

Compare this to a game like GTA.
Now that is a series of games built very much on open world catharsis. Movement options are everywhere, cars can be stolen in seconds and they are a constant presence.
However flying requires a bit more effort. It requires finding a vehicle capable of flight, it requires the ability to take-off, and it requires adhering to basic rules of flight like gravity and not being able to drive a plane backwards.

Flying in that game is balanced. There are moments where a player might elect to not use it even if one is available close by. However because of these limitations flying in that game is infinitely more fun and nuanced than it is in WoW. Landing is a skill in and of itself, so if you want to reuse a plane you better learn how to use it properly.
What this does is let flying exist in the game, but also give other modes of transport time to shine. You wouldnt use flight to get to a nearby building because it would be a waste, nor would you necessarily use it if you need precision. However if you want to travel a long way and cannot be assed to consider things like roads and following the map you can take the time to find a plane or helicopter, which is easy once you get further in the game, and simply bypass that stuff.


In WoW flying is the ultimate option in virtually all matters of movement. The only realistic times you wouldnt just mount up is either when the game physically doesnt let you, or when the distance is so short that the casttime is longer than the time it takes to run.
See an ore node? Just mount up and go straight to it. See a rare mob, mount up and go straight there. Is there an obstacle? Mount up and fly over. Roaming elite? Mount up and fly over.

This is all compunded by how extremely trivial the actual mechanics of flight is in WoW. 1 second cast time and you ignore gravity. It is about as close the game can get into giving the player noclip without also letting them phase through objects. This also means there is no inherent enjoyment to be gained from using flying other than momentary stuff like not being inconvenienced.


A more in-depth flying mechanic would help immensely in this case. Not being able to takeoff from just anywhere. Flying mounts being bound by stuff like momentum.
Just look at games like Guild Wars, ones where flying can be a gameplay loop in itself, with challenges that can rise organically from it rather than it being a simple tool to remove an obstacle.
The version of flying we have now isnt one that can really be used for fun flying challenges or treasures meant to be found by using flying skillfully because there is no skill needed. Flying in WoW is completely without depth, and worse still it has been so ingrained in the game that players actually think a mechanic that lets you bypass stuff for absolutely no cost is good for it.
The version of flying we have now is the open-world equivalent of the dev-only shirt from vanilla that lets you instakill raid bosses.

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"Gameplay first"


Yeah and we all know gameplay has only one lens of viewing it................not.

I love the irony of him trying to make the point in the same post he is arguing for the removal of open-world gameplay by adding flying.

[draugril]

Either they make travel more engaging than “don’t get dismounted by this arbitrary pack of elites!” or they make flying available on launch.

If travel was engaging on a personal level, not just engaging as a KPI, I’d be all for staying grounded. But travel hasn’t been relevant for over a decade.

There was a loss of immersion by design and the solution isn’t as simplistic as keeping players on the ground.

[Dracullus]

Gameplay first = Blizzard listen only to me, duh.

Blizzard why, oh why you lost your ways from good old days? Where my country gone?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I love the irony of him trying to make the point in the same post he is arguing for the removal of open-world gameplay by adding flying.

Flying does have that effect on the game unfortunately. I guess its hard to implement some of the flying mount game mechanics while it still makes sense and works within the normal gameplay on the ground.

That is provided people actually agree flying affects gameplay and if people can't agree on that, I have a hard time looking at a Pro flying perspective.

[Sondrelk]

Flying does have that effect on the game unfortunately. I guess its hard to implement some of the flying mount game mechanics while it still makes sense and works within the normal gameplay on the ground.

That is provided people actually agree flying affects gameplay and if people can't agree on that, I have a hard time looking at a Pro flying perspective.

I cannot imagine changing flying is difficult conceptually. Might be difficult to make it work when it comes to coding, but a version that makes takeoff more of a hassle in hostile areas and changes flying to be based on momentum it should be fine.

Walking to the top of a mountain, mounting up and using the momentum downards to reach immense speeds should be gratifying. Instead you mount up, move untethered by physics, reach your maximum speed immediately and come to a stop just as abruptly.

[Nagawithlegs]

I had no problem with no flying at launch this expansion. It was fun mastering my covenants zone and developing the travel network.

BFA was a different story, some of the zones like Drustvar and Nazmir were miserable to travel through even after you’ve “beat” the zone. And the verticality in Dazaralor..

[Gaidax]

Gameplay first = Blizzard listen only to me, duh.

Blizzard why, oh why you lost your ways from good old days? Where my country gone?

I mean... the house is practically burning and Blizzard scrambles to splash just about every cup of water they can on the raging flames and you say that...

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I love the irony of him trying to make the point in the same post he is arguing for the removal of open-world gameplay by adding flying.

It's really not my problem you and Blizzard can't wrap their heads around how to let people have flying in a way that does not remove anything from the open world. There are plenty of games that did it just fine, but Blizzard are speshul.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I mean... the house is practically burning and Blizzard scrambles to splash just about every cup of water they can on the raging flames and you say that...

You realize the house is burning outside of WoW issues but you seem to have an axe to grind.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I cannot imagine changing flying is difficult conceptually. Might be difficult to make it work when it comes to coding, but a version that makes takeoff more of a hassle in hostile areas and changes flying to be based on momentum it should be fine.

Given how Blizzard can't properly code certain jumping puzzles, I wouldn't be so sure about that. Their net code basically operates on the the principle of "client is always right unless we really don't want it to" which is great for the fluidity of the game in most cases, but also means the client spends more time desynced from the server than synced by ridiculous factors. When you now have timing sensitve problems and "skill checks" constantly this becomes an issue. Making flying more challenging would most likely be such a skill check, so either it needs to be extremely forgiving like the molten front hyppogryph jousting or you end up constantaly falling off like the Kyrian "fyling" quests. I'll be among the first to agree that flying in WoW is weird and more akin to swimming in the air (ironically the default animation..), but I'm not convinced that giving it momentum, lift, drag, etc. would actually be that easy.

For the most part the solution to treasure chest and minigames is way simpler and was already done in shadowlands. Put the player in a "can't fly/mount/use skills right now" magic state. Also rogues, druids, demon hunter and to a certain degree hunters can trivialize such content massively as well. Or tanks that can just ride through hordes of enemies and can't be dazed or hurt.

[Dracullus]

I mean... the house is practically burning and Blizzard scrambles to splash just about every cup of water they can on the raging flames and you say that...

Showing everything in overdramatized light and pretending it was all sunshine and roses in the past for sure will help in current situation.

[Sondrelk]

Given how Blizzard can't properly code certain jumping puzzles, I wouldn't be so sure about that. Their net code basically operates on the the principle of "client is always right unless we really don't want it to" which is great for the fluidity of the game in most cases, but also means the client spends more time desynced from the server than synced by ridiculous factors. When you now have timing sensitve problems and "skill checks" constantly this becomes an issue. Making flying more challenging would most likely be such a skill check, so either it needs to be extremely forgiving like the molten front hyppogryph jousting or you end up constantaly falling off like the Kyrian "fyling" quests. I'll be among the first to agree that flying in WoW is weird and more akin to swimming in the air (ironically the default animation..), but I'm not convinced that giving it momentum, lift, drag, etc. would actually be that easy.

For the most part the solution to treasure chest and minigames is way simpler and was already done in shadowlands. Put the player in a "can't fly/mount/use skills right now" magic state. Also rogues, druids, demon hunter and to a certain degree hunters can trivialize such content massively as well. Or tanks that can just ride through hordes of enemies and can't be dazed or hurt.

Flying doesnt need to be massively complicated, but there definitely should be more skill to it. The game manages rising and slowing speed perfectly well, and the engine manages rising velocity form gravity perfectly fine, so I cannot imagine that it where the problem would be.

The reason for a flying revamp should be to be able to remove the issue with flying where the only realistic option to integrate it in the game is to remove it.
Currently the game manages to have open-world content be fully relevant by removing flying entirely, and when flying was added the only solution was to again remove flying when it interfered with gameplay.

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I mean... the house is practically burning and Blizzard scrambles to splash just about every cup of water they can on the raging flames and you say that...

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It's really not my problem you and Blizzard can't wrap their heads around how to let people have flying in a way that does not remove anything from the open world. There are plenty of games that did it just fine, but Blizzard are speshul.

Other gmaes manages to integrate flying because it isnt as grossly OP as the one in WoW. In most other games this kind of flying would be called godmode, not balanced flight.

Had Blizzard changed it to require even the slighest bit of skill, even just enough to know how to take off from an unusual location then it could be balanced perfectly well around pretty much all content the game has.
But instead flying just untethers you from physics. No obstacle is ever an issue when the game has a button that lets you more freely in all directions from any location that isnt hardcoded to turn that option off.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I..don't want to turn this into flying but IMO Flying is here to stay and I think Blizzard need to find a way to make it not so(As dude above me said OP). Cats out of the bag, and we can't go back. Doesn't mean we should just pretend flying has no effect on gameplay.

[Gaidax]

You realize the house is burning outside of WoW issues but you seem to have an axe to grind.

You kidding?

Took note of 9.1.5? That's no outside issues, it's them scrambling to salvage playerbase fleeing like mad. No it's not a lawsuit, that's just icing on the cake of their general mismanagement of their IP over last 5 years.