Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Obelisk Kai]

Just feel sorry for him. He spends way, WAY too much time and energy on these forums, and especially this topic.

Yes, I am clearly the one who is too emotionally invested on this topic.

Kill yourself.

Infracted [ML]

[Nargrom]

But... High Elves are on the alliance right now, lore-wise. There's high elf mages on the airship in the arathi warfront. There's a high elf island squad.. And they aren't blood elves.

So all in all, you're misinformed or miseducated and you should maybe listen more to the arguments.

There is no mistake in the lore, it is as i told you, what you are describing is more likely fuck ups of the writing team or some ''defectors'' that i described in my previous post. The high elves became blood elves period.

[Aucald]

There is no mistake in the lore, it is as i told you, what you are describing is more likely fuck ups of the writing team or some ''defectors'' that i described in my previous post. The high elves became blood elves period.

Not in their entirety. During the reformation of Silvermoon the Blood Elves suffered an ideological schism, with a small portion of the populace who refused the mana-tapping "cure" for Arcane withdrawal on mostly moral grounds (with some refusing the alliance with the Horde on similar ethical grounds). Lor'themar Theron, viewing himself as unable to lead a fractured people, exiled these dissenters from Sin'dorei lands. These Elves would keep the moniker High Elves for themselves, and cemented their allegiance to the Alliance later on. This High Elven population is figured at about 10% of the surviving Elven population of Quel'Thalas, with major concentrations in Highvale, Dalaran, and the Allerian Stronghold of Outland. Being a small part of an already decimated people the High Elves are extremely few in number.

[Nargrom]

Not in their entirety. During the reformation of Silvermoon the Blood Elves suffered an ideological schism, with a small portion of the populace who refused the mana-tapping "cure" for Arcane withdrawal on mostly moral grounds (with some refusing the alliance with the Horde on similar ethical grounds). Lor'themar Theron, viewing himself as unable to lead a fractured people, exiled these dissenters from Sin'dorei lands. These Elves would keep the moniker High Elves for themselves, and cemented their allegiance to the Alliance later on. This High Elven population is figured at about 10% of the surviving Elven population of Quel'Thalas, with major concentrations in Highvale, Dalaran, and the Allerian Stronghold of Outland. Being a small part of an already decimated people the High Elves are extremely few in number.

The defectors/exiled it is then i described that in the original post i made. Makes sense to see those as NPCs but it isnt enough to make them an allied race, i mean the piece of lore u just typed is virtually non existant to the casual masses of players

[Obelisk Kai]

The defectors/exiled it is then i described that in the original post i made. Makes sense to see those as NPCs but it isnt enough to make them an allied race, i mean the piece of lore u just typed is virtually non existant to the casual masses of players

I understand your point, but the lore being invisible to the mass of casual players is not a good argument. The lore exists, the entire story derives from it, and we cannot pick or choose what is canon and what is not. That authority belongs to Blizzard alone.

Thankfully, the lore happens to be our side. While there are Alliance loyal High Elves and they definitely exist, they are too few in number to form a major presence within the Alliance. The only community of Alliance loyal High Elves that shows up with any regularity are the Silver Covenant, a paramilitary organisation based in Dalaran. You are correct that their story is appropriately told via the medium of NPCs, particularly as it is very likley to be entangled with the storyline of the Void Elves (I suspect Alleria may usurp whatever agency Veressa had in future narrative).

It is important to remember that the rarity of Alliance High Elves is not the reason they aren't playable, that is the in game explanation. The real reason of course is that Blood Elves are High Elves and Alliance High Elves are simply too close in terms of theme, aesthetics and culture to a core Horde race.

[Aucald]

The defectors/exiled it is then i described that in the original post i made. Makes sense to see those as NPCs but it isnt enough to make them an allied race, i mean the piece of lore u just typed is virtually non existant to the casual masses of players

I don't know about an allied race, but the point is simply that they do exist. Evidence of the Blood/High Elf split is pretty evident in the game as of WotLK - I think you'd have to be pretty lore-blind to miss it (e.g. fast-forwarding through quest and NPC text never taking in the game world at all).

[Nargrom]

I understand your point, but the lore being invisible to the mass of casual players is not a good argument. The lore exists, the entire story derives from it, and we cannot pick or choose what is canon and what is not. That authority belongs to Blizzard alone.

Thankfully, the lore happens to be our side. While there are Alliance loyal High Elves and they definitely exist, they are too few in number to form a major presence within the Alliance. The only community of Alliance loyal High Elves that shows up with any regularity are the Silver Covenant, a paramilitary organisation based in Dalaran. You are correct that their story is appropriately told via the medium of NPCs, particularly as it is very likley to be entangled with the storyline of the Void Elves (I suspect Alleria may usurp whatever agency Veressa had in future narrative).

It is important to remember that the rarity of Alliance High Elves is not the reason they aren't playable, that is the in game explanation. The real reason of course is that Blood Elves are High Elves and Alliance High Elves are simply too close in terms of theme, aesthetics and culture to a core Horde race.

I respect that PoV, i can get behind it

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

It is important to remember that the rarity of Alliance High Elves is not the reason they aren't playable, that is the in game explanation. The real reason of course is that Blood Elves are High Elves and Alliance High Elves are simply too close in terms of theme, aesthetics and culture to a core Horde race.

And that's is that on that TBH.

So for people that want High Elves is either hoping they change their mind about that sensibility, or just make High Elves different enough other ways.

[Obelisk Kai]

And that's is that on that TBH.

So for people that want High Elves is either hoping they change their mind about that sensibility, or just make High Elves different enough other ways.

Changing their mind is the only option, as High Elves cannot be plausibly differentiated from Blood Elves without ceasing to be High Elves. Void Elves after all are differentiated High Elves, and they are too different for some.

[FlubberPuddy]

And that's is that on that TBH.

So for people that want High Elves is either hoping they change their mind about that sensibility, or just make High Elves different enough other ways.

This pretty much. Doesn't really matter who is right or wrong here in these discussions, it's all made to facilitate feedback toward Blizzard to decide whether they want to go through with the idea or not. I still see it as not for certain, but this Blizzcon at least surprised me with Blizzard's responses on the matter and shows that the ice has thawed by a little bit.

The idea that High Elves can't be playable because of "Blood Elf aesthetic is the High Elf aesthetic and they won't give that to the other faction ever" is false since we know Blizzard is at least open to the idea and encourages its discussion.

I mean truthfully, do they ever encourage people to discuss things they don't do anything about? Look at flying: They keep reiterating Pathfinder is the way forwards, they don't encourage discussion on that it's just a question brought up from time to time. Look at Allied Races: They encourage players what would they like to see, and even if they have already planned what's happened for BFA, that leaves the future expansions open and Wildhammer Dwarves have been hinted at. Look at Classic/Vanilla: They left a huge thread open Blue sticked towards discussing it before making its own forums later. Look at the leveling experience gain: They posted about it, asked others to keep giving them feedback and eventually are now putting in a band-aid fix of reducing XP required to max level overall.

These are just the topics off the top of my head, there's probably others I'm sure. Main point is, whenever Blizzard has encouraged discussion of something it has eventually lead to a positive addition toward those who they are encouraging feedback from. There's precedent set for this, so I don't know why people are downplaying it I guess unless they mean to do so to stifle out discussion from happening or for high elf fans to gain more supporters.

Also blam, love this new WoW meme:



Inb4 some "smartass" takes the image and colors the High Elf's eyes Green.

This thread where the image comes from shows there's lots of support for those who wish for High Elves on Alliance, well into the few thousands from comment upvotes: https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/9zlb9y/i_had_to/

[Deleted]

Also blam, love this new WoW meme:

This is gold!

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Changing their mind is the only option, as High Elves cannot be plausibly differentiated from Blood Elves without ceasing to be High Elves. Void Elves after all are differentiated High Elves, and they are too different for some.

But then the argument is that the most relevant thing is to continue to High Elf narrative, so the point of how "unchanged" High Elves are is a spectrum of compromise rather than a zero/sum game.

THAT'S the reason Void Elves aren't a compromise, simply because they don't follow nor continue that Alliance High Elven Narrative.

And not counting the notion that you don't need biology to have an aesthetically different model on the first place, when demeanor, stance, animations, customization options, etc, are not defined by biology.

[Obelisk Kai]

But then the argument is that the most relevant thing is to continue to High Elf narrative, so the point of how "unchanged" High Elves are is a spectrum of compromise rather than a zero/sum game.

THAT'S the reason Void Elves aren't a compromise, simply because they don't follow nor continue that Alliance High Elven Narrative.

And not counting the notion that you don't need biology to have an aesthetically different model on the first place, when demeanor, stance, animations, customization options, etc, are not defined by biology.

While how an individual views the compromise is subjective, it does not diminish the truth that they are intended as a compromise.

Blizzard clearly views them as a compromise and designed them as a compromise, after all nearly every objection anti High Elfers have raised over the years against playable Alliance High Elves was addressed by Void Elves.

Further proof can be found in that Ion commented that Void Elves are Blood Elves (who are High Elves) with their own unique flavour. Alex Afrisiabi nodded along to the Lost Codex questioner when that questioner said that he considered the Void Elves filled the High Elf niche for the Alliance.

Your objection to the Void Elves, and the reason you do not regard them as a compromise, is that they are not based on the High Elves that have been in the Alliance for the past decade, which for all intents and purposes means the Elves of the Silver Covenant. You have said that you would accept Void Elves had it been shown that they were created out of Silver Covenant High Elves.

Yet many others rejection of the compromise was not rooted in the Void Elves not being High Elves, but in Void Elves being aesthetically distinct from High Elves.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...0948166?page=1

The many players in that thread, many of whom would go on to join the pro High Elf community, were arguing for High Elf like customization on a Void Elf as part of an acceptable compromise, neglecting of course that getting any kind of High Elf was the compromise. Had they been listened to, the High Elf like Void Elves still wouldn't have been High Elves who sides with the Alliance, but Void Elves. Not everyone rejected Void Elves for the same reasons, and many have objections that are a lot shallower than your own, wanting only the fair skinned, blond haired elf on the Alliance.

The great misinterpretation of compromise here is that the purpose of a compromise is to make everyone happy. Therefore if you don't like what was suggested, it is not a compromise.

This is incorrect.

A compromise is a settlement designed to make as many people as possible moderately happy by giving them something, yet taking away something else. The Void Elf compromise awarded Alliance players the option to use what had previously been a Horde unique model and a group who were, lore wise, thalassian elves. What the Horde got was that this race would be drained of the theme, aesthetic and culture that defined Blood and High Elves and given their own unique flavour. While the model became shared, the essence of what a Blood/High Elf is remains unique to the Horde. It is an imperfect result, a compromise by it's very nature is imperfect.

And note that I said as many people as possible, not everyone. Some people have had objections to Void Elves. You because of their lore origin, many others because of their look. In a compromise such as this, not everyone can be happy. It is your misfortune you are in one of those groups.

As a final comment, I dislike your view of a spectrum of compromise along which High Elves can be successfully differentiated. The use of the word spectrum implies breadth of options. In my opinion, Void Elves tip toe right to the line of going too far and hurting the faction integrity of the Horde. They look like Blood/High Elves and have a lore origin with Silvermoon. With Void Elves we are at the edge of tolerable, the differences between them and Blood/High Elves are minute as things stand. The spectrum between a Void Elf and a Blood/High Elf is exceedingly narrow and it pushes credibility to presume that demeanor, stance and animations that are slightly different from a Blood Elf would be enough support meaningful differentiation would be enough to supply meaningful differentiation with an Alliance High Elf. It would not. Both races occupy the same cultural, thematic and aesthetic space because they are the same race.

[FlubberPuddy]

Yet many others rejection of the compromise was not rooted in the Void Elves not being High Elves, but in Void Elves being aesthetically distinct from High Elves.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...0948166?page=1

The many players in that thread, many of whom would go on to join the pro High Elf community, were arguing for High Elf like customization on a Void Elf as part of an acceptable compromise, neglecting of course that getting any kind of High Elf was the compromise. Had they been listened to, the High Elf like Void Elves still wouldn't have been High Elves who sides with the Alliance, but Void Elves. Not everyone rejected Void Elves for the same reasons, and many have objections that are a lot shallower than your own, wanting only the fair skinned, blond haired elf on the Alliance.

This is disingenuous because you're not taking into context that 8 out of 10 of those threads were created before the actual addition of Void Elves into the game. Those players created those threads before Void Elf release because they were trying to give feedback to Blizzard on how to incorporate High Elves into Void Elves along with some cosmetic adjustments because Allied Race cosmetic options were still being worked on before their release. Here is a section on it from Part 8 of those threads:

All allied races are still being worked on. For instance, they removed the body paint from male Highmountain tauren skins in last build. That indicates that paint will be a separate customization option not available right now.

Same about the nightborne tatoos: if you look Blizzcon preview, the tattoos are meant to actually be arcane runes, not just the white patches over the skin like current PTR nightborne model has.

Most allied races have criminally low variations of skin and hair color as well, which may mean more options will still be added.

Not to mention that, if body paint is going to be a new custom category for hm tauren, then void elves are the only allied race so far without additional "special" categories to customize, which may mean they are going to get more things added to them.

My suggestions for more variation on Void Elf skins (made before 7.3.5 was in PTR. #1 is the original, we got a very close one to #2 in PTR. Consider giving us something like #3, #4 and #5, Blizzard!):
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DPl9pA4XUAAHjWK.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DPl9tVBX0AAh3nm.jpg

Once Void Elves came out, sure a couple more threads appeared for those players to try identifying with Void Elves instead of High Elves, but eventually it was useless.

It was clear Void Elves were not Alliance loyal High Elves, it was clear all Void Elves were all Blood Elves, and it was clear that this was no compromise.

So what did a majority of those posters (who originally wanted High Elves in the first place) do? They decided screw it, let's actually make it clear what it is we really want: Playable Alliance High Elves like those of the Silver Covenant and others like them who we've seen roaming around and being part of the Alliance in World of Warcraft for years.

Understand the context of those Void Elf discussion threads, where 80% were made before Void Elves became playable. This is why the conversation has moved past that (you know, something Blood Elves are good at doing) and onto the request for actual, proper Alliance High Elves.

[Kyphael]

The whole "compromise" argument is kind of bull when you realize one thing. Nightborne are essentially slightly tweaked night elves, and the Horde gets a night elf looking copy and paste, but Alliance has to settle for a purple edge lord version of High Elves? Is the counter argument to that "well Horde never wanted Night Elves anyway!"?

So Ion is saying Alliance can't have the Horde's blood elf race, but the Horde can have a variant nearly identical to the alliance's night elf race, and that's a fair compromise how and why?

We have four elf variants, and three of them are essentially purple/dark elves, and only one is the traditional Tolkien-like elf, and the Horde gets the only unique one while alliance gets two purple/dark elf races. Sounds like skin/hair option on void elves to make them look like the Thalassian High Elf is the one and only compromise to shut up both sides.

[FlubberPuddy]

And honestly I don't see the point of bringing up those Void Elf threads anymore, it's not where the discussion has been now for a very very long time. It's like if someone was trying to argue that Ogres are relevant in the Horde today, in 2018, by going back 8 years ago to Cataclysm where Horde had quests in Feralas helping Stonemaul Ogres.

That's how it appears when Obelisk tries to bring up those older and irrelevant Void Elf threads. They were created at a different time in under a different context. Those threads aren't relevant today in the High Elf discussion (which is what the conversation has moved onto) just like Stonemaul Ogres aren't relevant to the Horde today since their appearance 4 expansions ago.

High Elves are at least still relevant to the Alliance today and every expansion since TBC (aside from WoD) and playing a stand-out support role during Nighthold in the previous expansion before BFA.

- - - Updated - - -

Sounds like skin/hair option on void elves to make them look like the Thalassian High Elf is the one and only compromise to shut up both sides.

It's one way, another is just releasing actual playable High Elves you know like basically making the Silver Covenant (a faction of High Elves) playable. Just as Void Elves (a faction of ex-Horde Blood Elves) are playable to Alliance.

As far as I'm concerned since the "Blood Elf model" is now on Alliance side, Alliance players can be shallowly justified in saying/asking/requesting for High Elf skins using the reasoning that since the biggest hurdle (the model) is now officially part of both sides.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

While how an individual views the compromise is subjective, it does not diminish the truth that they are intended as a compromise.

Blizzard clearly views them as a compromise and designed them as a compromise, after all nearly every objection anti High Elfers have raised over the years against playable Alliance High Elves was addressed by Void Elves.

Further proof can be found in that Ion commented that Void Elves are Blood Elves (who are High Elves) with their own unique flavour. Alex Afrisiabi nodded along to the Lost Codex questioner when that questioner said that he considered the Void Elves filled the High Elf niche for the Alliance.

Your objection to the Void Elves, and the reason you do not regard them as a compromise, is that they are not based on the High Elves that have been in the Alliance for the past decade, which for all intents and purposes means the Elves of the Silver Covenant. You have said that you would accept Void Elves had it been shown that they were created out of Silver Covenant High Elves.

Yet many others rejection of the compromise was not rooted in the Void Elves not being High Elves, but in Void Elves being aesthetically distinct from High Elves.

I didn't think it would bear saying, but my opinions are my own, not based on transient or current community trends. More so, I distinctly remember that many raised the lore issues as well during those threads, and how they would have been okay if the VE were made out of HE's, so it really feels you are nitpicking the whole thing, even when I don't think the then consensus as you frame it has any relevance to my point of what a compromise is.

I will only speak as someone that wants High Elves because of their lore, so any "compromise" that is based solely in aesthetics will mean less to me than others than focus only on the aesthetics. But you cannot dismiss the lore issues because, on your perception, more people simply care about the aesthetics. You cannot distill the reasons why people want HE's for one reason, and personally, I am on the side that cares about their lore.

More so, try to dismiss the validity of that stance, because other people care only about the aesthetic, is simply a shitty thing to do.

The great misinterpretation of compromise here is that the purpose of a compromise is to make everyone happy. Therefore if you don't like what was suggested, it is not a compromise.

This is incorrect.

A compromise is a settlement designed to make as many people as possible moderately happy by giving them something, yet taking away something else. The Void Elf compromise awarded Alliance players the option to use what had previously been a Horde unique model and a group who were, lore wise, thalassian elves. What the Horde got was that this race would be drained of the theme, aesthetic and culture that defined Blood and High Elves and given their own unique flavour. While the model became shared, the essence of what a Blood/High Elf is remains unique to the Horde. It is an imperfect result, a compromise by it's very nature is imperfect.

The problem is that Void Elves are neither a compromise for the people that only want the HE aesthetic, nor the people that want HE's because of the lore. Currently they aren't a compromise for either camp. How are they a compromise if no helfer is getting anything, it's ridiculous.

Void Elves are at best a compromise for people that wanted to look like a BE on the Alliance, that's it. What do people that wanted High Elves got? Nothing really, as it is not a comprimise for people that care about the lore, nor people that you claim to be the majority, and just wanted the aesthetic.

VE's are not a compromise on either looks or lore, no wonder barely anyone who wanted HE's considers them a compromise at all. It FAILS as a compromise, becase it's making almost no one who wanted High Elves happy, because no one ever asked for Void Elves. And again, if they would have given them at least a HE background, that would have been a compromise for SOME, at least more people than feel its a good compromise now.

That's why VE's are a failure as a compromise. Almost NO ONE on the pro helf side is happy with them, when at least SOME could have been with better lore.

As a final comment, I dislike your view of a spectrum of compromise along which High Elves can be successfully differentiated. The use of the word spectrum implies breadth of options. In my opinion, Void Elves tip toe right to the line of going too far and hurting the faction integrity of the Horde. They look like Blood/High Elves and have a lore origin with Silvermoon. With Void Elves we are at the edge of tolerable, the differences between them and Blood/High Elves are minute as things stand. The spectrum between a Void Elf and a Blood/High Elf is exceedingly narrow and it pushes credibility to presume that demeanor, stance and animations that are slightly different from a Blood Elf would be enough support meaningful differentiation would be enough to supply meaningful differentiation with an Alliance High Elf. It would not. Both races occupy the same cultural, thematic and aesthetic space because they are the same race.

Honestly this is just your inability to see that culture, ideology and politics can create a unique identity for any group, and are stuck on the notion that the only valid distinction can be made through race. I find this notion utterly limited.

To say that both groups HAVE to occupy the same "cultural, thematic and aesthetic space because they are the same race" is ridiculous, because that's tantamount to say defines your identity in a way cultural context and environment can't change, and I really cannot stress how much I disagree with that notion.

[roahn the warlock]

I have no objection to darker skin tones for thalassian elves, but as an idea for differentiation with the Blood Elves they come with a lot of unpleasant connotations. If those skin tones are provided, there is an absolutely no reason why they would not be an option for Blood Elves too.
@Fyersing this is the sort of thing regarding differentiation I am on about by the way.

There is actually reason for this. In lore, the more fair your skin, the more attuned to magic you are. The darker (more night elvish) is seen as not magically gifted, and they could very well be ostracized from the Blood elven fel-blood society.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

There is actually reason for this. In lore, the more fair your skin, the more attuned to magic you are. The darker (more night elvish) is seen as not magically gifted, and they could very well be ostracized from the Blood elven fel-blood society.

Wut, how does this even make sense when we have Nightborne lol.

Weird headcanon to have, specially one that is against evidence.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

High Elves should have brown-orange skin with african american textured hair. Blue, purple or aqua blue eyes. Silver and light blue theme colors. They are focused on utilizing nature through arcane magic. They should have a skeleton and body type mixed between Night Elves and Blood Elf, more akin to Belves.